lloyd in sc
Member
Needing 12v internally ballasted coil for 1010 I am changing to NEG Ground fully 12v ignition system. Who has them & where to go? Thanks.
- Thread starter lloyd in sc
- Start date
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I got tuned up on this one with yes, many many decades ago in pre WWII equipment. Some coils in some applications had a thermistor that cut coil current after a minute or two of operation.
That said, for the past 75 years there is no such d@mmed thing as an internal ballast coil .
A 12V coil and a 6V coil have the same amount of secondary winding turns.
The 12V coil has twice as many primary turns as a 6V coil.
You can use the original coil if you want. As far as "ballast" goes - originally it was built into the key-switch which is kind of unusual. That coil is not polarity sensitive as some older coils are.
Many 1010s use the same coil as older Deere 6 volt tractors had but it depends if you've got Wico, Prestolite, or Delco ignition system.
Newer coils that say "no external resistor to be used" just have extra windings of wire inside the can and provide the ballast needed, to lower voltage and extend the life of your ignition points.
Thought I'd never say this but consider the Pertonix breakerless kit and no external resistor. Coil to be used with the kit goes by the ohm-reading on the primaries. I've put Pertonix on a 1010 and 2020, both Delco distributors, and it made a nice difference in cold starting and smoother low-end runnning.
As far as the endless arguments go about "true 12 volt coils." Seems silly to me. A tractor with a 12 volt system must crank and start well at 9 volts. Not 12 volts. Many so-called "6 volt" and "12 volt" coils can do that job fine.
Many 1010s use the same coil as older Deere 6 volt tractors had but it depends if you've got Wico, Prestolite, or Delco ignition system.
Newer coils that say "no external resistor to be used" just have extra windings of wire inside the can and provide the ballast needed, to lower voltage and extend the life of your ignition points.
Thought I'd never say this but consider the Pertonix breakerless kit and no external resistor. Coil to be used with the kit goes by the ohm-reading on the primaries. I've put Pertonix on a 1010 and 2020, both Delco distributors, and it made a nice difference in cold starting and smoother low-end runnning.
As far as the endless arguments go about "true 12 volt coils." Seems silly to me. A tractor with a 12 volt system must crank and start well at 9 volts. Not 12 volts. Many so-called "6 volt" and "12 volt" coils can do that job fine.
By the way, if you DO choose to put in a Pertonix Ignitor breakerless kit - it requires a coil with at least 3 ohms resistance on the primaries. If you have a Delco distributor with a clip-on cap it takes kit # 1143.
They don't care what resistor is where, inside the coil or outside. Just must be 3 ohms total resistance or more. If you have an OEM Deere coil used on many 6 volt and 12 volt Deere tractors - it has 1.6 to 2.6 ohms. Not enough and would require an added resistor.
They don't care what resistor is where, inside the coil or outside. Just must be 3 ohms total resistance or more. If you have an OEM Deere coil used on many 6 volt and 12 volt Deere tractors - it has 1.6 to 2.6 ohms. Not enough and would require an added resistor.
First of all, I seriously doubt you will buy a 12 volt coil that has an internal discrete stand alone "ballast resistor" hidden away inside the can (sure a few were made for some older cars). Instead, you will more then likely buy one that does NOT have an internal discrete resistor but instead has a total LV coil primary winding resistance around 3 ohms or so (may be 2.3 to under 4 ohms range, lots of coils out there).
If you go to say NAPA or other parts house ask for a true "12 Volt" Coil and NOT a "6 Volt" Coil WELLL DUHHHHHHH You don't have to necessarily ask for an "internally ballasted coil", just a "12 Volt" Coil and they will likely have such a unit.
NOTE 1: A 12 volt coil may be labeled "12 Volts" or "12 Volts NO Ballast requited" THATS WHAT YOU NEED ON A 12 VOLT SYSTEM WHERE NO EXTERNAL BALLAST IS USED
HOWEVER if its labeled "12 Volts for use with external ballast" that means just what it says!!!!
NOTE 2 Some tractors used the same 6 volt coil on EITHER a 6 or 12 volt tractor !!!! However if used on a 12 volt they simply added series external voltage dropping (12 down to 6) ballast resistance so the coil saw the 6 volts it was designed for.
NOTE 3 You could still use a 6 volt coil on your 12 volt tractor if you want, just add external series voltage dropping (12 down to 6) ballast resistance or use any existing sufficient resistance and power rated ballast resistance (if you use 12 volts but only have a 6 volt rated coil).
NOTE 4 I would wire the new coil to match your tractor polarity. Since you're going to NEG ground, that means the coils - wires to the distributor while its + gets ign switched voltage
Post back any questions, for a 12 volt tractor and no external series ballast resistance to be used, just buy a "12 Volt" rated coil or one labeled "12 Volts NOT for use with ballast" or "12 Volts NO ballast required"
I did not see you asking any elec ignition question, so I didn't answer what wasn't asked, but if you have any post back
John T
If you go to say NAPA or other parts house ask for a true "12 Volt" Coil and NOT a "6 Volt" Coil WELLL DUHHHHHHH You don't have to necessarily ask for an "internally ballasted coil", just a "12 Volt" Coil and they will likely have such a unit.
NOTE 1: A 12 volt coil may be labeled "12 Volts" or "12 Volts NO Ballast requited" THATS WHAT YOU NEED ON A 12 VOLT SYSTEM WHERE NO EXTERNAL BALLAST IS USED
HOWEVER if its labeled "12 Volts for use with external ballast" that means just what it says!!!!
NOTE 2 Some tractors used the same 6 volt coil on EITHER a 6 or 12 volt tractor !!!! However if used on a 12 volt they simply added series external voltage dropping (12 down to 6) ballast resistance so the coil saw the 6 volts it was designed for.
NOTE 3 You could still use a 6 volt coil on your 12 volt tractor if you want, just add external series voltage dropping (12 down to 6) ballast resistance or use any existing sufficient resistance and power rated ballast resistance (if you use 12 volts but only have a 6 volt rated coil).
NOTE 4 I would wire the new coil to match your tractor polarity. Since you're going to NEG ground, that means the coils - wires to the distributor while its + gets ign switched voltage
Post back any questions, for a 12 volt tractor and no external series ballast resistance to be used, just buy a "12 Volt" rated coil or one labeled "12 Volts NOT for use with ballast" or "12 Volts NO ballast required"
I did not see you asking any elec ignition question, so I didn't answer what wasn't asked, but if you have any post back
John T
lloyd in sc
Member
Thanks all, this is what I love about this site. You post a question & a bunch of folks know the answer.......
I've got a WICO dist. on this tractor (X30091 E)& ordered an elect. kit for it a while ago but must of ordered the wrong one as it just didn't fit.
I've still got it all so might re check it out. I had hoped I could use that "hot" coil & 12 v breakers & capacitor.
If not I might just reorder the kit again.
Thanks to all.....
I've got a WICO dist. on this tractor (X30091 E)& ordered an elect. kit for it a while ago but must of ordered the wrong one as it just didn't fit.
I've still got it all so might re check it out. I had hoped I could use that "hot" coil & 12 v breakers & capacitor.
If not I might just reorder the kit again.
Thanks to all.....
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
Just for the fun of it.
An external ballast resistor is nothing more than extra turns of wire for resistance to lower voltage to the points. A 12v - no external ballast required coil has those extra turns of wire inside the can. Just out of curiosity, if the extra wire is moved from the outside to the inside why can't it be called internally ballasted?
An external ballast resistor is nothing more than extra turns of wire for resistance to lower voltage to the points. A 12v - no external ballast required coil has those extra turns of wire inside the can. Just out of curiosity, if the extra wire is moved from the outside to the inside why can't it be called internally ballasted?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Open a 12V coil and show us the resistor .
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Because those extra turns of wire are making magnetic flux . Resistors make Heat.
Good Morning good M Man. "if the extra wire is moved from the outside to the inside why can't it be called internally ballasted?"
Hey you can call it anything you like lol it depends on semantics and definitions to some extent. I've been here over 15 years and there are still a few electrically challenged although still fine polite gents out there who think a typical old farm tractor coil has a discrete stand alone hidden "resistor" tucked away hidden inside that can somewhere. There were indeed some older cars that had a stand alone separate discrete resistor inside the coil can, but such is rare on "most" (Never say never, never say always) typical older farm tractors.
To my engineers way of thinking, if you wire it in series with the coil outside it, for the purpose of reducing coil input voltage and lowering its current (and in the process produces heat) and NOT having anything to do with the coils internal inductance and mutual inductive coupling or transformer action, I CALL IT AN EXTERNAL BALLAST "RESISTOR" instead of an inductor or a capacitor or a part of the coils internal inductive and transformer physics and nature.
As an old retired engineer to me the term "ballast resistor" means first and foremost its a RESISTOR (Not called only wire, not called an inductor, not called a capacitor) which is a passive electronic component that drops voltage across itself according to Ohms Law V = RI and in so doing produces heat.
HOWEVER if inside the coil you wind the LV Primary into inductive coils for the purpose of creating an electromagnetic field that can by transformer action and mutual inductive coupling interact with the HV Secondary to produce a high voltage spark I CALL THAT AN INDUCTOR AND TRANSFORMER (auto transformer if so wound) AND ALL PART OF AN IGNITION COIL INTEAD OF A BALLAST RESISTOR.
Sure, wire being an imperfect conductor has some "resistance" but its still called WIRE NOT A RESISTOR............. Sure, some resistors are carbon while some are wirewound, yet they are called RESISTORS NOT WIRE............Sure, an inductor is made up of coils of wire which has some resistance but its CALLED AN INDUCTOR NOT A RESISTOR OR WIRE
So call it what you like, if its a ballast resistor outside the coil to reduce coil voltage and current and produces heat in the process but has nothing to do with the coils internal inductance and transformer and electromagnetic field characteristics I CHOOSE TO CALL IT A BALLAST RESISTOR.
If inside the coil LV Primary wire is wound into spirals and coils for the purpose of inductance and transformer action to react with the HV Secondary to produce a spark I CALL THAT PART OF THE COILS LV PRIMARY AND NOT A VOLTAGE DROPPING BALLAST RESISTOR.
nUFF SAID
John T
Hey you can call it anything you like lol it depends on semantics and definitions to some extent. I've been here over 15 years and there are still a few electrically challenged although still fine polite gents out there who think a typical old farm tractor coil has a discrete stand alone hidden "resistor" tucked away hidden inside that can somewhere. There were indeed some older cars that had a stand alone separate discrete resistor inside the coil can, but such is rare on "most" (Never say never, never say always) typical older farm tractors.
To my engineers way of thinking, if you wire it in series with the coil outside it, for the purpose of reducing coil input voltage and lowering its current (and in the process produces heat) and NOT having anything to do with the coils internal inductance and mutual inductive coupling or transformer action, I CALL IT AN EXTERNAL BALLAST "RESISTOR" instead of an inductor or a capacitor or a part of the coils internal inductive and transformer physics and nature.
As an old retired engineer to me the term "ballast resistor" means first and foremost its a RESISTOR (Not called only wire, not called an inductor, not called a capacitor) which is a passive electronic component that drops voltage across itself according to Ohms Law V = RI and in so doing produces heat.
HOWEVER if inside the coil you wind the LV Primary into inductive coils for the purpose of creating an electromagnetic field that can by transformer action and mutual inductive coupling interact with the HV Secondary to produce a high voltage spark I CALL THAT AN INDUCTOR AND TRANSFORMER (auto transformer if so wound) AND ALL PART OF AN IGNITION COIL INTEAD OF A BALLAST RESISTOR.
Sure, wire being an imperfect conductor has some "resistance" but its still called WIRE NOT A RESISTOR............. Sure, some resistors are carbon while some are wirewound, yet they are called RESISTORS NOT WIRE............Sure, an inductor is made up of coils of wire which has some resistance but its CALLED AN INDUCTOR NOT A RESISTOR OR WIRE
So call it what you like, if its a ballast resistor outside the coil to reduce coil voltage and current and produces heat in the process but has nothing to do with the coils internal inductance and transformer and electromagnetic field characteristics I CHOOSE TO CALL IT A BALLAST RESISTOR.
If inside the coil LV Primary wire is wound into spirals and coils for the purpose of inductance and transformer action to react with the HV Secondary to produce a spark I CALL THAT PART OF THE COILS LV PRIMARY AND NOT A VOLTAGE DROPPING BALLAST RESISTOR.
nUFF SAID
John T
You asked a simple question and in a few of the replies, it was answered.
But the arguments on this forum about "true 12 volt coils", "ballast resistors" is a little silly and at times confusing.
First - if you want to discuss something technical, words need definitions for the context of the discussion. If not -one word can have different meanings to different people and the result is utter mayhem.
When automobile-type battery-coil ignition systems were in their incipient stages -you'd be hard pressed to find the term "ballast resistor" anywhere. The common term late 1800s, early 1900s was "resistance unit." Some were inside the coil and some were outside. Either way, they were designed to give variable resistance and NOT constant.
The later adopted term of "ballast resistor" can be used for something with fixed resistance or variable resistance. NOTE it can be either, by definition.
So when the term "ballast resistor" gets thrown around, it can mean several things. If a new 12 volt coil has enough resistance inside the can to use with no extra external resistor - it certainly has enough "resistance" inside to do the job. Does it have a separate "resistance unit" inside that varies resistance as needed? None that I know of anymore. But even if a fixed resistance - it is still, by definition, a type of "ballast" resistor.
The Delco-Remy coil as shown in this image was used from the early 1900s up into at least, the late 1940s. This DOES have a variable resistance, "resistance unit" inside the coil-can.
From four auto and engine repair books I have here - dating from 1902 to 1925, the definition for "resistance unit" stays the same.
"RESISTANCE UNIT - This is an automatic device for regulating the amount of primary current. Its operation depends upon its temperature and offers high resistance at low engine speeds and low resistance at high engine speeds. The resistance unit is made of special material whose resistance varies with its temperature. It is connected in series in the primary circuit."
But the arguments on this forum about "true 12 volt coils", "ballast resistors" is a little silly and at times confusing.
First - if you want to discuss something technical, words need definitions for the context of the discussion. If not -one word can have different meanings to different people and the result is utter mayhem.
When automobile-type battery-coil ignition systems were in their incipient stages -you'd be hard pressed to find the term "ballast resistor" anywhere. The common term late 1800s, early 1900s was "resistance unit." Some were inside the coil and some were outside. Either way, they were designed to give variable resistance and NOT constant.
The later adopted term of "ballast resistor" can be used for something with fixed resistance or variable resistance. NOTE it can be either, by definition.
So when the term "ballast resistor" gets thrown around, it can mean several things. If a new 12 volt coil has enough resistance inside the can to use with no extra external resistor - it certainly has enough "resistance" inside to do the job. Does it have a separate "resistance unit" inside that varies resistance as needed? None that I know of anymore. But even if a fixed resistance - it is still, by definition, a type of "ballast" resistor.
The Delco-Remy coil as shown in this image was used from the early 1900s up into at least, the late 1940s. This DOES have a variable resistance, "resistance unit" inside the coil-can.
From four auto and engine repair books I have here - dating from 1902 to 1925, the definition for "resistance unit" stays the same.
"RESISTANCE UNIT - This is an automatic device for regulating the amount of primary current. Its operation depends upon its temperature and offers high resistance at low engine speeds and low resistance at high engine speeds. The resistance unit is made of special material whose resistance varies with its temperature. It is connected in series in the primary circuit."
"But the arguments on this forum about "true 12 volt coils", "ballast resistors" is a little silly and at times confusing"
EXACTLY (But hey I don't hold it against them if they're not electrically educated and experienced, just because an electrical engineer or electrical tech or electrician gets it don't mean the average Joe out there ever will)
AMEN BROTHER LOL For 15 years I have tried to educate those electrically challenged but fine and sincere gents here about coils and ballast resistors, but its impossible to describe to them in a few sentences what can fill entire books and take years of formal education and experience to fully comprehend. However like you, I have sure tried and will continue to do so.
God Bless you for also trying even if it appears were never going to succeed lol
Merry Christmas
John T Long retired Electrical Engineer who still tries to help the gents here
EXACTLY (But hey I don't hold it against them if they're not electrically educated and experienced, just because an electrical engineer or electrical tech or electrician gets it don't mean the average Joe out there ever will)
AMEN BROTHER LOL For 15 years I have tried to educate those electrically challenged but fine and sincere gents here about coils and ballast resistors, but its impossible to describe to them in a few sentences what can fill entire books and take years of formal education and experience to fully comprehend. However like you, I have sure tried and will continue to do so.
God Bless you for also trying even if it appears were never going to succeed lol
Merry Christmas
John T Long retired Electrical Engineer who still tries to help the gents here
I sure agree, A "Resistor" is certainly NOT the same as what's normally called an Inductor nor a part of a LV Primary Inductive Coil and part of an autotransformer. Funny how electrical components have different names for different designs uses and purposes, such as resistors, inductors, coils, transformers etc etc
John T
John T
Lloyd, in closing I'm not aware of any of the Pertronix Coils that have any sort of an internal discrete stand alone ballast resistor tucked away inside their can nor any typical old farm tractor coils circa 30's thru 50's (sure some cars did and never say never or never say always lol) that had them either. HOWEVER confirm that with Pertronix, I have no internal diagrams or x rays etc of any of their coils so I cant guarantee such.
John T
John T
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
BUTT John, It's so much fun picking at our old friend cause it bugs Glenn so much. lol
The choice of coil used with a Pertonix breakerless system depends on how many cylinders the engine has, and which version of Pertonix. Ignitor, Ignitor I, or Ignitor II. Ignitor system with a 4 to 6 cylinder engine requires 3 ohms and they don't care how it is achieved. Other versions like the Ignitor II can be used with a low ohm, high-output coil.
That's correct JD and they sure have a wide choice of coils on their website depending on which switch and which application they are used for, NONE OF WHICH HAVE A STAND ALONE DISCRETE BALLAST RESISTOR INSIDE THE CAN as far as I know.
As always fun sparky chatting with you
John T
As always fun sparky chatting with you
John T
You may be right JD, this topic has been posed so many times in my 15+ years here its hard to remember it all (but there are still some who may believe their farm tractor has a discrete stand alone ballast resistor tucked away somewhere inside the can lol) and there's just so much confusion out there as you noted, perhaps if we keep trying we can educate the non engineers and non electricians and those who are electrically challenged about ignition coils and ballast resistors, I have tried for 15 years and will keep on trying to help them.
May God Bless you and yours this Christmas and I'm sure the help you provide is appreciated.
John T Too long retired Electrical Engineer and a bit rusty but I still do my best to help
May God Bless you and yours this Christmas and I'm sure the help you provide is appreciated.
John T Too long retired Electrical Engineer and a bit rusty but I still do my best to help
After many years as an ungineer (not Miss Spelled) with a public utility I thank you and the ones here that try to explain 24 volt DC systems and the fundamentals of electric circuits.
I was told by an old lineman once that all he needed to know was that all electrical devices run on SMOKE and if it get out the device will no longer work and in most cases can't be repaired and must be replaced.
We used a lot of 48 and 130 volt DC control circuits that were floating and they can and are a real challenge to understand and trouble shoot.
Most time you can be better off if you just use the Black Box method (it really doesn't matter how the box works just be glad the smoke is on the inside and it works).
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL
Good Morning Sir on this Christmas Eve, thanks for the kind words. Most of my electrical engineering career was more in the Secondary distribution area then the HV Primary, although I have some experience there also. At our facility the Primary was 12,470 Y 7200 Three Phase Four Wire.
Hey I've been here longer then most and enjoy helping when I can but the John Deere 24 volt system used on the old two cylinders and the early new generation tractors like the 4020 diesel is tough to describe to anyone who isn't experienced and educated in the basics. And as this thread indicates, basic coil ignition systems is also a mystery to some, but we enjoy helping each other. Fine group here...
Best wishes and Merry Christmas
John T
Hey I've been here longer then most and enjoy helping when I can but the John Deere 24 volt system used on the old two cylinders and the early new generation tractors like the 4020 diesel is tough to describe to anyone who isn't experienced and educated in the basics. And as this thread indicates, basic coil ignition systems is also a mystery to some, but we enjoy helping each other. Fine group here...
Best wishes and Merry Christmas
John T
I had to attend many a John Deere tech school in Syracuse with the subject being that awful 24/12/12 volt "split" system that Delco designed for Deere. Many of the instructors did not even understand the system. Why Deere ever did it, I'm not sure anyone knows anymore. There were many tractors with pure 24 volt systems that were much easier to work on and diagnose problems - like Allis Chalmers used Even the 24 volt series-parallel system that Deere used on 1010s was a lot better.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The story I was told by an Two Cylinder Engineer . Was a infringement between Delco and Caterpillar for some propitiatory 24V agreement of some sort.
The split 12/24V system was a loophole so Delco could also sell a 24V system to Deere without Cat being able to complain.
As to truth and accuracy, who knows ?
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