for john T - solar charger

RwEny

Member
I am thinking about a solar charger for my travel trailer. I would appreciate your recommendations. I am using 2 deep cycle batteries. I have no knowledge in this area. My sons use their computers etc. when we are camping and I don't mind running the generator to charge these things but I don't like to run the generator just to charge trailer batteries.
Thanks
Ralph
 
Its not all that hard or expensive to install a panel and charge controller. HOWEVER without knowing your actual loads and time duration and the sunlight and angle it hits your panels and panel type and efficiency etc etc etc (Lots of variables) and as you have two deep cycle batteries, its a pure, yet still somewhat experienced guess, you could get by with say a 100 Watt Panel as a friend of mine does. His loads are computer and phone chargers maybe occasional TV, usually parked in sun with a portable panel so he can keep at a good angle, and he has two batteries and his 100 watt panel suffices. IE he can store up enough energy in a good day to make up for his day and night loads.

To really get into specifics you would calculate how many amp hrs you use in a typical day and then calculate how may amp hrs would be generated by a X watt panel at X hrs of direct sunlight subject to how well the panels were placed/angled to get maximum charge.

I would recommend an MPPT Charge Controller, that's what my research showed was best for my use for the cost.

AGAIN A PURE GUESS would be a 100 watt panel with an MPPT Charge Controller subject to decent hours of decent sunlight (panel aimed at proper angle) and two deep cycle batteries will suffice to charge cell phones and run a computer and other typical RV loads such as a few lights at night (but I recommend LED), occasional water pump, vent or furnace fan.

Here's the deal, sure a 50 watt panel is cheaper and hey 200 watts (like I have) would be great, but without doing any calculations, my experience and research just leads me to suggest a 100 watt panel.

For me and the wife and especially since we do a lot of extended dry camping and also some camping when its cold at night so the furnace has to run often, my research and calculations indicated I should have 200 watts of panels and four deep cycle 6 volt batteries (460 Amp Hrs) AND I CAN BE SELF SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY FOR US TWO WITH THAT SET UP (assuming the sun shines now n then at least lol). But we do extended dry camping like 7 to 10 days and run the fridge on LP Gas instead of 120 VAC, if you do less you can get by with less.

DISCLAIMER AND NOTES: Okay if you or someone does all the precise calculations and has all the data and specs of the panels and knows how many hours of sunlight and panel angle towards the sun and has all your 12 VDC load figures and times and amps and amp hours etc. YOU MAY GET A DIFFERENT RESULT then my pure guess of a 100 watt panel SO BE IT, DONT HAVE A CALF IF YOU DO OR DONT

CAUTION my set up and the examples above do NOT use a lot of Inverter powered devices. When dry camping I run my fridge (works on 120 VAC or LP Gas) on LP Gas so Im not using up a lot of stored battery energy. If you need to run more 120 VAC powered devices which require an inverter and you want to run a fridge on 120 VAC for extended dry camping time periods like we do (say 7 days) you need to add all that to your load calculations when sizing your panels and batteries etc.

100 WATT PURE GUESS NO WARRANTY WHATSOEVER, TAKE OR LEAVE IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL, IT MAY BE CLOSE IT MAY BE WAY OFF (perhaps 25 watts perhaps 50 perhaps 200) The only way to calculate it is have all the data and specs and sunlight and angles and all loads SO THERE

FINAL NOTE It really helps me by keeping an eye on a digital voltmeter I have on my house batteries. That way I can see the state of charge anytime. Typically in good sunlight for much of a typical sunny day, my MPPT controller peaks out and clamps at 13.8 volts maybe charging 3 to 14 amps. Then if its a cold night and the furnace has to run a lot (plus a little TV and phone and computer and a few LED lights at night) when we wake up my voltage may be down to 12.4 or less HOWEVER as soon as the sun pops out voltage starts climbing and will get up to 12.6 then 12.7 then 13 then 13.8 maybe at noon yayyyyyyyyyy I LOVE IT

John T
 
If you put solar on the roof on your RV - you'll get around 1 amp @ 14 volts per square foot of solar panel WHEN the sun is shining. If you mount on the ground and keep changing the angle to point directly at the sun you can get 2 amps.

That's about all there is too it. Been doing it for years - on RVs and my house. You can buy a cheap controller for $25 or a high priced MPPT and see very little difference in what you're doing.

Just remember that the sun only makes its most useful power for 6-7 hours a day on GOOD days. So 1 amp per hour when sunny averages to 1/4 amp per our over a 24 hour day.

I've got 240 watts of solar on the roof of my little Toyota RV.
 
I agree, there's really not all that much to it, I've done it on RV's several years and with my current 200 watt panels and MPPT Controller, depending on sun and angle, I might see as high as approaching 14 amps as/if needed subject to the state of charge of my batteries. Of course, my charge controller regulates the amount of charge subject to load and battery condition, so all I have to do is set there and for fun look at my digital voltmeter lol I LOVE WATCHING IT RISE AS THE SUN RISES

I just love having it and being self sustained for long term dry camping with my solar panels and 460 Amp Hrs of battery energy storage. I think if I were the poster and was going to buy a panel plus the work and expense of mounting it, Id go ahead and get at least a 100 watt unit, Id rather have too much capacity then too little, but that's just me. His money, his RV, his choice if he wants 25 watts or if he wants 200 or more.

John T
 
I don't know what you have for a generator or a battery charger. I do know that many portable generators do an awful job of powering many conventional battery chargers. Sometimes a charger will barely run at 1/4 it's rated output when hooked to a portable generator. Yeah - nothing to do with solar but I figured I'd mention it anyway. This problem took me by surprise when I first hooked to solar and tried to use a generator to charge my batteries when it had been cloudy for a week. Here's what I regard as a nicely written article from Australia that's low tech and easy reading.


CHARGING BATTERIES FROM GENERATORS
There is a known problem of battery chargers and, more recently, inverter/chargers, that will not run satisfactorily from motor generators. In some instances the chargers produce far less than their expected output or even none at all. This issue also affects running AC induction motors from generators (and for much the same reasons).

This problem has existed almost since basic battery chargers and AC generators were invented. It is not necessarily related to quality or price. Despite this, the respective vendors tend to claim (a) they have never encountered the problem before; or (B), and sometimes true, that the fault lies with the other’s product. This problem exists and the respective industries are well aware that it exists. If it is denied, the person claiming this is either new to the job, or is denying something known to be true.

There are several possible causes. The most common is that the generator is simply too small for the charger (or that the charger is too big for the generator. This occurs because it is not remotely obvious, to those who do not understand electrics (nor always to those who do), that a 400 watt charger may require a 1000-watt generator. It may well operate with less, but not well.

Conventional Battery Chargers
Typically hardware/autopart store chargers are extremely inefficient (70% is typical). This alone necessitates a generator 30% larger than otherwise required for that alone. But a further issue necessitates the generator to be larger by an extra 30% again.

The alternating current (AC) from the electricity grid, and AC generators, will run things like water heaters, toasters and soldering irons, etc with no problems. A (say) 3000 watt generator will thus drive any such load up to 3000 watts. This is because all such loads are purely ‘resistive’ (for this purpose it is not necessary to know what 'resistive' strictly means).

Conventional battery chargers consist mostly of coils of wire wound around an iron or similar core. These loads are called ‘inductive’ - and behave oddly with alternating current in that the current flowing through them gets out of step with the voltage pushing it.

The effect is called ‘Power Factor’ and is usually expressed as a number between 0 and 1.0. A power factor of less than 1.0 has much the same effect as pushing a kid’s swing before or after the optimum time – in that the same amount of push has less effect on the desired result.

Conventional battery chargers have a power factor between 0.65 and 0.7. Driving them requires a generator that makes extra current available. This extra current is not actually ‘used’ but it must be available - it is sort of ‘shunted to and fro’. Electricity suppliers hate this effect because whilst they have to make the extra current available it does not register on their meters because it is ‘utilised’ but not consumed.

This power too must be available from the generator - so yet another 30% (minimum) must be added to its required size. On top of all this, most low-priced generators can produce their advertised output for more than a few minutes - most are limited to 80% for continual use.

In practice, to drive any conventional charger (i.e. those using big and very heavy transformers) needs a generator of twice the rated capacity of that charger.

Many ‘hardware-store special chargers’ are hugely sensitive to incoming voltage. They may well produce their claimed output when driven from a grid supply, but less than half if driven from a generator in need of attention (or just a lousy generator!).

Generator Big Enough – but the charger still does not perform.
With some generators, adverse power factor can prevent an otherwise adequate-sized generator starting up at all, or developing full power into a battery charger.

A quick and dirty fix (but one that almost always works) used to be to connect a 100-watt incandescent globe across the generator. It’s not light produced that does the job, but simply that the globe, being purely resistive, tricks the generator into working properly. Grid voltage incandescent globes are no longer sold in many countries - but a small soldering iron will do instead.

A better, but costly fix, is to have power factor correcting capacitors added to the input of the battery charger (a licensed electrician will know what this means and probably also why you want to do it). This also overcomes the need for the 30% larger generator needed to overcome the adverse power factor but may cost as much as buying the switch mode type of charger described below.

Switch-mode chargers
Since 2000 or so, apparently similar problems have arisen with some chargers, and also inverter-chargers, that use switch-mode technology (these are much smaller and weigh a fraction of that of conventional transformer-based chargers).

Here, the symptoms tend to be similar, but the cause is usually different.

Switch-mode devices are reasonably efficient (plus 90% is common) and have a more favourable power factor. A 1000 watt generator should be able to run a 650 watt switch-mode charger. But far from all will because switch-mode devices demand 'clean' electricity. And that from cheap generators, and even at least one costly brand, can be very 'dirty' indeed.

What happens technically is this: on each power stroke, a generator speeds up. The speed only varies slightly, but its acceleration (the rate of change of that increase and decrease) is high. On the following compression stroke, it slows again. This rapid and ongoing speeding up and slowing down generates a harmonic series of multiples of 50 Hz – up to 5000 Hz or more. The resultant 'dirty' AC may cause charger protection circuits to cut off the supply.

The cause of the problem is that the flywheel, the inertia of which is intended to mechanically dampen the acceleration and deceleration, is simply too small.

Diesel engines are so prone to this, that their makers have no choice but to use a heavy flywheel. Another fix is a flexible rubber coupling, between the engine and the electrical generating bits, that absorbs the changes in speed. Yet another is a ‘harmonic damper’ on the crankshaft. This is like a rubber coupling combined with a very small flywheel. It was invented by Dr Lanchester around 1905 and used in some cars ever since. But none of the Inverter generators, such as those made by Honda, Yamaha, Robin etc, do not suffer from this, nor do Mastervolt’s or Fischer Panda’s. Most generator vendors will however almost always deny responsibility - often and correctly claiming correctly that their products will drive most electrical loads without problems.

This situation has to change because an ever-increasing proportion of equipment uses switch-mode power supply technology.

In Australia, Power Protection Systems (suppliers of Mastervolt etc) has designed a simple electrical modification (to the Dakar inverter charger. It partially cleans up the dirty AC, and partially tricks the inverter charger into accepting any ‘noise’ that remains. It was designed specifically with Onan’s 3600 petrol generators in mind, but Power Protection Solutions’ Bob Wisniewski says it enables the Dakar charger to work with other generators that exhibit similar problems.

They are a friendly mob and know a lot about stuff like this. The 100-watt globe trick sometimes works with this problem too, but not as reliably.
 

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