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Re: Two cylinder tractor size

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04-15-2014 17:34:57

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75 HP will NEVER be as much work as 100 HP. Saying that a 75 horse tractor can do as much work as 100 horse in the same amount of time is like saying that $75,000 is the same amount as $100,000 and will buy just as much stuff.

Horsepower is by definition the amount of energy needed to lift 550 lbs, one foot, in one second. That means that 75 Horsepower will not lift as many pounds in one second as 100 horse tractor.

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04-15-2014 19:08:46

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-15-2014 17:34:57  
I suppose you're gonna tell me then that this 100hp 4230 can also pull the same load as a tandem hitched double R which is also rated at 100 hp but has double the cubic inches twice the tires on the ground twice the stroke & far more weight ? LOL it's not happening. Maybe a 400hp v-8 ford pickup can pull the same load just as fast as a 855 cummins set to 400hp? We can bolt them both into identical kenworths on a one dollar bet ......hp & torque are not the same at all. That's why they have different names.

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04-15-2014 18:55:46

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-15-2014 17:34:57  
Take an 830 & go side by side in the field with a 4020 (94hp) then tell me that. I have. And I know several others that have. The 94 hp is only there at or near rated rpm & as soon as it pulls down just a wee-bit, it's gone. Torque is the ability to do work. Hp is work over time, which depends on rpm. You can have 10,000 ft-lb of torque at zero rpm, holding up a weight. But that is zero hp because nothing is moving. Just the same, a B Jd rated at 28 hp can work circles around a 45 hp modern little kubota in tillage. Try it yourself. There's a lot more involved than hp. The 830 is not turning pumps & only half the gears so it's far more efficient at getting the power to the drawbar, and it's heavier than a 4020 with better weight placement for tillage besides. Traction matters too.

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04-15-2014 20:40:34

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 18:55:46  
The only reason I even care to make a comment is to keep misinformation from running rampant. Will a 4230 do as much work as 2 R tractors? The answer is yes. Two R tractors might move more weight at a low speed but a 4230 will move half the weight twice as fast.

You mentioned that Torque and Horsepower were different terms and I'll agree that they are but they are functions of each other. Without the movement (horsepower) the torsion (torque) is simply dead weight and is not capable of any work. Things have to move to be able to perform work.

You proved your own point by saying " You can have 10,000 ft-lb of torque at zero rpm, holding up a weight. But that is zero hp because nothing is moving". If nothing is moving there is no work getting done. Tractors have to move to pull a plow.

Will a compact utility tractor rated at 50 HP do as much work as an R? Obviously it cant keep up with the R if it was unballasted with the moldboard plow attatched because it would have to pull 1/3 of the load at 3 times the speed which would cause issues with the plow being pulled at 10 MPH. It will however, do just as much work on the PTO as the R and could pull the same plow at the same speed if a guy had enough ballast to weight it down to get traction.

Yes, R tractors are neat and sound really cool but their "cool factor" does mean that they can do more work than their rated horsepower. They can only output 48 HP on the flywheel.

Horsepower is a real nuts and bolts kind of thing, meaning that there is no gray area. A horsepower rating compared to a horsepower rating is like comparing oranges to oranges. It's a scientific measurement of how much work an engine is capable of completing in a given amount of time.

Just an FYI if the R engine spun as fast as the 4230 engine it would make half the torque of the 4230 which is why it has half the HP of the 4230 and is why it pulls the same load at half the speed, or half the load at the same speed.

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04-15-2014 21:55:19

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-15-2014 20:40:34  
You've missed 3 very important things here. What is the hp hrs per gallon of fuel for both examples, & what percentage of the engines produced hp ends up available at the drawbar. In simple terms, which machine is more efficient? If the 4230 & the double R get the same work done at the same speed but the R's do it on 2/3 the fuel, they are then also doing more work on the same fuel. Thirdly, slippage in the field effects the ability to do work , the speed at which it's done, & the gallons burned to do it. So in many cases, 75 hp can & does out work 100 hp. The hp rating of the engine is far from the machines ability to do work as a whole. I do fully understand torque, hp & how they are related & inter-dependent. But you are ignoring real-world performance , which again has many factors involved beyond an engines hp rating.

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04-16-2014 05:08:45

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 21:55:19  
Fuel consumption has nothing to do with HP. Yes, I'll agree that the R will do the same work as the 4230 in DOUBLE the amount of time on 2/3 of the fuel.

Slippage is simply a factor of operator error of improper ballast. Both tractors need weights in accordance with slippage.

According to Nebraska the R made 43 Drawbar HP pulling 6600 lbs in 1st gear and the 4230 made 83 Drawbar HP pulling 11,100 lbs in A2. These guys know a lot more about slippage and measuring power than either you or I.

50 horsepower is only capable of half the work of 100 horsepower. That's just the hard facts.

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04-16-2014 18:57:48

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-16-2014 05:08:45  
So by your test #s, two individual R's produce 2000# more pull & 3 more hp than your 4230. It is a well known FACT that two tandem hitched tractors produce a pull that is greater than the sum of their individual pulls. So adding them together mathematically gets you 13,200 pounds pull but hitching them together in the field gets you some # quite significantly more than that, because any fool knows also that an R is traction limited in first gear, as would be your 4230 in A2, even heavily ballasted. But I still don't know why it matters at all because the original question did not pertain to anything other than 2cyl machines.

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04-16-2014 21:23:45

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-16-2014 18:57:48  
The reason 4230's were mentioned and compared is because YOU brought them into the discussion.

Suggesting that someone tie two R tractors together to farm makes no sense. If a guy wants a project that's fine but the cost/labor involved would be double the price of a nice 100 or even 150 horse tractor.

I care not one bit what kind of tractor this guy gets but hopefully he will realize from this discussion that 200 acres of row crop is beyond the scope of a single two cylinder tractor if he intends to get things done in just a few days.

On a side note, the tandem R's will still never do as much work as a single 4230 with an efficient operator and matched equipment. The 4230 will be headed back down the field with the tandem R's are still turning around. The guy on the 4230 can catch another gear on the headland to buzz on over while the guy in the tandem R's is trying to figure out how in the world he is going to change gears.

On another side note. The tandem R's together may pull more pounds on the drawbar than the sum of two singles but it should with all the added weight of the hitch. They are heavier. The tandem R's however, will never produce more than the sum of their rated HP. They will pull twice their normal load at the same speed or their normal single load at double the speed. Dont forget to deduct HP from the rating to run any hydraulics for the steering. I bet that would eat your spare 6 HP :)

The supposed "magic" of hitching tractors together and "gaining" power is simply a wives tale of the folks selling conversion kits all those years ago. If a single tractor was ballasted to exactly the same weight (properly distributed) as itself plus half the hitch, it would perform half the work of the tandem tractors. There is no magic in physics.

I'll say again that old diesel two cylinders are really neat and had an incredible place in production agriculture 60 years ago but are best suited for plowdays, parades and tractor shows now. Yes, they were fuel efficient but are limited by low pressure hydraulics, marginal charging systems, single speed engines, no rocksaft and limited variation in working speeds.

I'll ride in my soundgard body all day while you ride that really cool tandem R and we'll see who feels most chipper after a 10 hour day and we will also see who plowed the most ground. I know you and I both know the answer to these questions, but I'll never understand your desire to attempt to confuse the younger/less experienced crowd on this board with your HP/torque claims. It's all been spelled out in black and white. It's simple and elementary. It cant be refuted but yet it can be danced around by changing the subject, which is what has happened several times in this discussion.

Just one more visualization in case you honestly are confused (I think you are hard headed, not confused), lets pretend the following scenario. Lets ballast up an R tractor just up to the point that we can power out (choke out the engine) in 1st gear, now lets ballast up the 4230 to the point of being able to power out in A1. After applying all that ballast, lets hitch them drawbar to drawbar. At this point it's all about engine HP since neither tractor can spin out. The R only has 50 engine HP while the 4230 has double that amount. That means the R is going to choke and get dragged backwards. Yes, I realize that you mentioned tandems at several points but you also mentioned that a 75 HP two cylinder diesel could outwork many 100 HP tractors which is why I even entered this discussion. That statement is false and is misleading to a novice. A 75 HP tractor will never ever never be able to produce as much work as a 100 HP tractor. It might weigh more and be capable of pulling a larger plow at a low speed but it will never be capable of as much work in a given period of time. The higer HP tractor might pull a smaller draft load but at a much greater speed which will supersede the lower HP tractor. I think in your mind, more weight and more plow bottoms equals more work, which simply is not true.

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04-16-2014 05:18:27

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-16-2014 05:08:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

So just how do you justify comparing a 4WD tandem hitch R to a 2WD 4230 and call the 4230 junk? Yet you cry foul when comparing the 4WD tandem R to a M4WD 4050.

You haven't explained either why you dropped back from the $$$ tandem 820/830 ?
If the tandem hitch R or 820/830 was so wonderful. Why isn't there shops churning out these rigs for eager farmers ?
The shops are busy keeping M4WD 50/55/60 series tractors working long past their design life.

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04-16-2014 18:50:07

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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-16-2014 05:18:27  
I did not "drop back" from the tandem 830. If you read, you will see my very first post said I would tandem hitch R's. You complained that 2 830's would cost $12,000 apiece (LOL). The man asked about how to best work 200 acres with TWO CYLINDER machines, not what tractor in general he should buy to do it.

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