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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Re: Two cylinder tractor size

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 16:14:41
66.97.232.42



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A good 830 can be had for less $ than a 100hp tractor, do just as much work, just as fast, & on HALF the fuel. If it were me, I'd find 2 good R's & make a tandem hitch, or find one to buy. That's 100+ hp & with duals it's 8 traction tires, all for 4 gallons per hr max. This could be accomplished for $10k. & work circles around a turbo'd 4020 or any 100hp 2wd machine on half the fuel. Lots of R's have Been tandem hitched, power steering, cabs with AC. Down side is you can't put a loader on it & speed is limited to only 4 working gears, 2,1/8 mph, 3,1/3mph, 4,1/4mph, or 5,1/3. You essentially have a 4wd tractor with 100hp, 832 CUbic inches & an 8" stroke so gobs of torque. At full load you can only burn 4 gallons per hr with it. If you saved 2 gallons per hr over a single tractor & have less slippage you're up $10/hr plus.

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buickanddeere

04-15-2014 19:32:06
216.183.134.103



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 16:14:41  
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Sorry dude but you are mathematically challenged.
The green dash 820 listed in the Nebraska tests.Had less power but was slightly better on fuel than the black dash 820/830/840.
4.21 US gallons per hour making 72.82 pulley HP and 67.15 drawbar HP. 5898lbs drawbar pull
You can't find a decent 80/820/830 around here for less than $10,000 each.

Vs.
A good old classic 4455 which will pull the pants off a pair of jacklegged 830's hitched together. On less fuel b.t.w.

Test Date: April 1, 1989 - May 1, 1979

Type: Diesel Powershift 4WD

PTO power (max): 146.86 hp [109.5 kW]

PTO fuel use (max): 8.1 gal/hour [30.7 l/hour]

PTO power (rated engine speed): 141.60 hp [105.6 kW]

PTO fuel use (engine speed): 8.4 gal/hour [31.8 l/hour]

Drawbar power (max): 122.53 hp [91.4 kW]

Drawbar fuel use (max): 8.4 gal/hour [31.8 l/hour]

Drawbar pull (max): 17,446 lbs [7913 kg]

Max pull gear: 3

Test report: PDF file

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AJB-830

04-15-2014 20:17:52
50.50.158.162



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-15-2014 19:32:06  
I have to agree with Buick. I have an 830 and a JD 6230 4-WD (75 pto hp) for my 80 acre hobby farm. I can pull a 4-16 plow with the 6230 in any condition, but the 830 can't always pull it in very dry or wet conditions because of traction. But the 830 does use a lot less fuel to do the same work. The 830 used to be my plow tractor but now I just use it to plow a few acres on a nice day. Hard to go back to sitting out in the weather when you have a cab tractor with air. Get a 4450 or 4455 with a cab and forget the 2-cylinder if your doing 200 acres. Al

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 19:58:02
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-15-2014 19:32:06  
Buick, do you have access to the Nebraska test for the R Jd? Thanks



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Gtx1967

04-15-2014 19:54:05
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-15-2014 19:32:06  
Buick, remember that tandem 830's would more than double the traction, fuel efficiency, & pounds of pull than one 830. This is a well known fact, & true of any tandem hitched tractor. I doubt it would pull 17,000 pounds but in a 100 acre challenge it would come up close, if not ahead, due to traction. I have watched single, double, & triple hitched 830's in the field. I've watched a 7520 with a 830 pusher on it in the field. Also, I was talking about a 2 wheel drive naturally aspirated 100 hp tractor, because the original post was on 2 cyls, because I compared it to a 4020, & because I'm not aware of any front-assist ones you can buy in usable condition for 10,000$. If hp is superior to cubic inches please explain to me why we don't have 400ci in a semi with 500hp, (durability aside)? We have 1200ci instead, with 450hp. One could indeed gear the truck to do the work and at the same rate but it's not practical. And please show me this $10,000 front wheel assist 55 series 6000hr tractor you've found LOL

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buickanddeere

04-15-2014 20:10:18
209.240.126.206



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967, 04-15-2014 19:54:05  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
I don't where you are going to find two 80/820/830 for under $12,000-$15,000 each. Then the time and money to hack them up into a tandem hitch . You are well into paying for a 4455M4WD by that point. The 4455 has diff lock, sound guard body , high flow hydrualics, 1000rpm pto, three point hitch and air conditioning. Add those to your 830 tandem hitch for less than the price of a 4455.
Care to guess that the price difference would be on a tandem 830 hitch at an auction vs a 4455M4WD at your retirement?
The M4WD was used as a comparison as it's driving on two axles like the jackleg tandem 830 hitch. You were watching a strain gauge and mph indicator? Or watching the tractors from the side of the field? I'll take science over a seat of the pants dyno.
Where pray tell did 400cu" and 500HP come from ??? The 4455 has a 466 cu" engine making less than 150 net Hp.
The 450HP engine with 1200 cu" you like Is being pushed 119% harder than the 466 making 147pto Hp.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 21:02:46
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-15-2014 20:10:18  
The M&W dyno shows only the engines output, not the whole machines ability to perform useful work. When you stand & watch the 830 pull the same load in the same field at the same rate as the 4020, I don't care what the dyno says cuz it doesn't matter. You have to put it to the ground & burn the same fuel. Perhaps we should remove your turbo & find a N.A. 6 cyl Diesel that can do the work of an 830 on the same fuel, apples to apples. It don't exist, at least not a Deere .

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 20:53:53
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-15-2014 20:10:18  
The 400ci @ 500 hp is running all over Tarnation, mostly at classic car shows & drag strips. V-8 gas/ethanol. The 1200ci @ 400 hp is in reference to a semi truck engine, which I was also with the 500hp 400ci v-8 gas. Making a point that hp is not always the same, torque matters. And on your note about which is being pushed, using your 830's & your 4455, they have over 900ci, your 4455 has only 466. The output is the same.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 20:47:04
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-15-2014 20:10:18  
To Buick, and you, please go back & read my tandem hitch post. I said to tandem two R's, which you can buy several a day for 3-5,000. NOT two 830's. I also said in comparison to a 2wd ,100hp tractor. It's a fact that the 2 R's combined can only burn just over 4 gph at rated load. I don't know what a 4230 would burn, or a 4020, loaded to 100hp, but I'd bet it's more than 8 or 9 gph. And nobody can tell me that a tandem R with duals all around has less traction than even buicks 4455 front-
assist. Again I said a 2wd single 100hp tractor.

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Wilamayb

04-15-2014 17:34:57
66.168.152.76



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 16:14:41  
75 HP will NEVER be as much work as 100 HP. Saying that a 75 horse tractor can do as much work as 100 horse in the same amount of time is like saying that $75,000 is the same amount as $100,000 and will buy just as much stuff.

Horsepower is by definition the amount of energy needed to lift 550 lbs, one foot, in one second. That means that 75 Horsepower will not lift as many pounds in one second as 100 horse tractor.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 19:08:46
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-15-2014 17:34:57  
I suppose you're gonna tell me then that this 100hp 4230 can also pull the same load as a tandem hitched double R which is also rated at 100 hp but has double the cubic inches twice the tires on the ground twice the stroke & far more weight ? LOL it's not happening. Maybe a 400hp v-8 ford pickup can pull the same load just as fast as a 855 cummins set to 400hp? We can bolt them both into identical kenworths on a one dollar bet ......hp & torque are not the same at all. That's why they have different names.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 18:55:46
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-15-2014 17:34:57  
Take an 830 & go side by side in the field with a 4020 (94hp) then tell me that. I have. And I know several others that have. The 94 hp is only there at or near rated rpm & as soon as it pulls down just a wee-bit, it's gone. Torque is the ability to do work. Hp is work over time, which depends on rpm. You can have 10,000 ft-lb of torque at zero rpm, holding up a weight. But that is zero hp because nothing is moving. Just the same, a B Jd rated at 28 hp can work circles around a 45 hp modern little kubota in tillage. Try it yourself. There's a lot more involved than hp. The 830 is not turning pumps & only half the gears so it's far more efficient at getting the power to the drawbar, and it's heavier than a 4020 with better weight placement for tillage besides. Traction matters too.

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Wilamayb

04-15-2014 20:40:34
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 18:55:46  
The only reason I even care to make a comment is to keep misinformation from running rampant. Will a 4230 do as much work as 2 R tractors? The answer is yes. Two R tractors might move more weight at a low speed but a 4230 will move half the weight twice as fast.

You mentioned that Torque and Horsepower were different terms and I'll agree that they are but they are functions of each other. Without the movement (horsepower) the torsion (torque) is simply dead weight and is not capable of any work. Things have to move to be able to perform work.

You proved your own point by saying " You can have 10,000 ft-lb of torque at zero rpm, holding up a weight. But that is zero hp because nothing is moving". If nothing is moving there is no work getting done. Tractors have to move to pull a plow.

Will a compact utility tractor rated at 50 HP do as much work as an R? Obviously it cant keep up with the R if it was unballasted with the moldboard plow attatched because it would have to pull 1/3 of the load at 3 times the speed which would cause issues with the plow being pulled at 10 MPH. It will however, do just as much work on the PTO as the R and could pull the same plow at the same speed if a guy had enough ballast to weight it down to get traction.

Yes, R tractors are neat and sound really cool but their "cool factor" does mean that they can do more work than their rated horsepower. They can only output 48 HP on the flywheel.

Horsepower is a real nuts and bolts kind of thing, meaning that there is no gray area. A horsepower rating compared to a horsepower rating is like comparing oranges to oranges. It's a scientific measurement of how much work an engine is capable of completing in a given amount of time.

Just an FYI if the R engine spun as fast as the 4230 engine it would make half the torque of the 4230 which is why it has half the HP of the 4230 and is why it pulls the same load at half the speed, or half the load at the same speed.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 21:55:19
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-15-2014 20:40:34  
You've missed 3 very important things here. What is the hp hrs per gallon of fuel for both examples, & what percentage of the engines produced hp ends up available at the drawbar. In simple terms, which machine is more efficient? If the 4230 & the double R get the same work done at the same speed but the R's do it on 2/3 the fuel, they are then also doing more work on the same fuel. Thirdly, slippage in the field effects the ability to do work , the speed at which it's done, & the gallons burned to do it. So in many cases, 75 hp can & does out work 100 hp. The hp rating of the engine is far from the machines ability to do work as a whole. I do fully understand torque, hp & how they are related & inter-dependent. But you are ignoring real-world performance , which again has many factors involved beyond an engines hp rating.

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Wilamayb

04-16-2014 05:08:45
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 21:55:19  
Fuel consumption has nothing to do with HP. Yes, I'll agree that the R will do the same work as the 4230 in DOUBLE the amount of time on 2/3 of the fuel.

Slippage is simply a factor of operator error of improper ballast. Both tractors need weights in accordance with slippage.

According to Nebraska the R made 43 Drawbar HP pulling 6600 lbs in 1st gear and the 4230 made 83 Drawbar HP pulling 11,100 lbs in A2. These guys know a lot more about slippage and measuring power than either you or I.

50 horsepower is only capable of half the work of 100 horsepower. That's just the hard facts.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-16-2014 18:57:48
70.198.1.218



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-16-2014 05:08:45  
So by your test #s, two individual R's produce 2000# more pull & 3 more hp than your 4230. It is a well known FACT that two tandem hitched tractors produce a pull that is greater than the sum of their individual pulls. So adding them together mathematically gets you 13,200 pounds pull but hitching them together in the field gets you some # quite significantly more than that, because any fool knows also that an R is traction limited in first gear, as would be your 4230 in A2, even heavily ballasted. But I still don't know why it matters at all because the original question did not pertain to anything other than 2cyl machines.

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Wilamayb

04-16-2014 21:23:45
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-16-2014 18:57:48  
The reason 4230's were mentioned and compared is because YOU brought them into the discussion.

Suggesting that someone tie two R tractors together to farm makes no sense. If a guy wants a project that's fine but the cost/labor involved would be double the price of a nice 100 or even 150 horse tractor.

I care not one bit what kind of tractor this guy gets but hopefully he will realize from this discussion that 200 acres of row crop is beyond the scope of a single two cylinder tractor if he intends to get things done in just a few days.

On a side note, the tandem R's will still never do as much work as a single 4230 with an efficient operator and matched equipment. The 4230 will be headed back down the field with the tandem R's are still turning around. The guy on the 4230 can catch another gear on the headland to buzz on over while the guy in the tandem R's is trying to figure out how in the world he is going to change gears.

On another side note. The tandem R's together may pull more pounds on the drawbar than the sum of two singles but it should with all the added weight of the hitch. They are heavier. The tandem R's however, will never produce more than the sum of their rated HP. They will pull twice their normal load at the same speed or their normal single load at double the speed. Dont forget to deduct HP from the rating to run any hydraulics for the steering. I bet that would eat your spare 6 HP :)

The supposed "magic" of hitching tractors together and "gaining" power is simply a wives tale of the folks selling conversion kits all those years ago. If a single tractor was ballasted to exactly the same weight (properly distributed) as itself plus half the hitch, it would perform half the work of the tandem tractors. There is no magic in physics.

I'll say again that old diesel two cylinders are really neat and had an incredible place in production agriculture 60 years ago but are best suited for plowdays, parades and tractor shows now. Yes, they were fuel efficient but are limited by low pressure hydraulics, marginal charging systems, single speed engines, no rocksaft and limited variation in working speeds.

I'll ride in my soundgard body all day while you ride that really cool tandem R and we'll see who feels most chipper after a 10 hour day and we will also see who plowed the most ground. I know you and I both know the answer to these questions, but I'll never understand your desire to attempt to confuse the younger/less experienced crowd on this board with your HP/torque claims. It's all been spelled out in black and white. It's simple and elementary. It cant be refuted but yet it can be danced around by changing the subject, which is what has happened several times in this discussion.

Just one more visualization in case you honestly are confused (I think you are hard headed, not confused), lets pretend the following scenario. Lets ballast up an R tractor just up to the point that we can power out (choke out the engine) in 1st gear, now lets ballast up the 4230 to the point of being able to power out in A1. After applying all that ballast, lets hitch them drawbar to drawbar. At this point it's all about engine HP since neither tractor can spin out. The R only has 50 engine HP while the 4230 has double that amount. That means the R is going to choke and get dragged backwards. Yes, I realize that you mentioned tandems at several points but you also mentioned that a 75 HP two cylinder diesel could outwork many 100 HP tractors which is why I even entered this discussion. That statement is false and is misleading to a novice. A 75 HP tractor will never ever never be able to produce as much work as a 100 HP tractor. It might weigh more and be capable of pulling a larger plow at a low speed but it will never be capable of as much work in a given period of time. The higer HP tractor might pull a smaller draft load but at a much greater speed which will supersede the lower HP tractor. I think in your mind, more weight and more plow bottoms equals more work, which simply is not true.

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buickanddeere

04-16-2014 05:18:27
184.151.36.226



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Wilamayb, 04-16-2014 05:08:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

So just how do you justify comparing a 4WD tandem hitch R to a 2WD 4230 and call the 4230 junk? Yet you cry foul when comparing the 4WD tandem R to a M4WD 4050.

You haven't explained either why you dropped back from the $$$ tandem 820/830 ?
If the tandem hitch R or 820/830 was so wonderful. Why isn't there shops churning out these rigs for eager farmers ?
The shops are busy keeping M4WD 50/55/60 series tractors working long past their design life.

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Gtx1967jewison

04-16-2014 18:50:07
70.198.1.218



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to buickanddeere, 04-16-2014 05:18:27  
I did not "drop back" from the tandem 830. If you read, you will see my very first post said I would tandem hitch R's. You complained that 2 830's would cost $12,000 apiece (LOL). The man asked about how to best work 200 acres with TWO CYLINDER machines, not what tractor in general he should buy to do it.



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NY 986

04-15-2014 16:31:59
67.142.182.24



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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to Gtx1967jewison, 04-15-2014 16:14:41  
Any good 830 I have seen has been advertised for above 10K. I saw a pretty good IH 966 sell for 7,500 dollars just a couple of weeks ago. You are correct that the 830's have some merits worth considering. If it were me I would just make it simple and get a 966 or 1066 or since this is a JD board a 4230 or 4430 thought they price out higher.



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Gtx1967jewison

04-15-2014 16:59:56
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 Re: Two cylinder tractor size in reply to NY 986, 04-15-2014 16:31:59  
Those 30 series deeres are way over rated especially for tillage IMO & red or green you're gonna burn double the fuel of a 2 cyl. I've seen lots of 820's & a few good 830's for under ten, 820's usually bring 5-8k around here. The R's are older but have a far superior/reliable pony, live pto/hydraulics & parts are plentiful, cuz they made a lot more & they never break or wear out. The R is half the price to buy also, but for power steering you need char-Lynn style or a tandem hitch cuz they never had P.S. All the 720/730's are shot unless you buy a $12,000 trailer queen & can't pull a penny more than an R. But you do gain an option of 3point. But They also don't have a cab option.

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