JD 440i, 2cyl gas - starter interchange? starter rebuild?

Does anyone know about interchanging John Deere starters to the older tractors? From photos, it appears a 1960's 4020 (12v) starter just might match an older (1959) 440i? (2-Bolt pattern opposite each other)

The 440i isn't common, a 2-cylinder industrial tractor, supposedly very close to the 420 family ag tractors but lower slung & heavier built, with larger 2-cylinder engine (largest & last they made in 2cyl?).

The existing starter will spin just fine outside the tractor but will barely move the engine, mostly just engages if even that. I've inspected & brushes are good, maybe armature burnt? - so either needs rebuilt (any suggestions where?) or find another that might fit. Thanks for your ideas. This one has been sitting since we brought it home two years ago - and now starting to get an earful. So I need to get the project re-started 8/).

Matthew in Sedalia, CO
 
4020 won't fit I'm 99% positive.

On our 440 IC found the optional HD starter with the 4 full field coils in it.
Models 420,430,440 should all be the same.

Best bet is to take yours to a rebuild shop and have it fixed and they can install the new HD 4 coil field coils.
 
Usually cables that are too light and have bolt on ends are to blame. A too small CCA 6V battery is often a problem too. Charging voltage should be 6.9V.
When installing the new cables. Run the chassis return cable (-) to a starter mounting bolt instead of the factory location.
Is the initial timing advanced too far? Stuck advance weights do occur.
 
Guys - thanks for the advice - solid info as I spent the evening doing exactly what you suggested - taking it apart & reviewing the mess then searching for parts. Amazingly there are quite a few parts available for this old starter. The other info I found - the label (finally made out) suggests it's a Delco 1107165, which as Mike suggested - fits 420,430,440 - & 320,330 & 40;

Weirdly, the starter model as Delco 1107165 also crosses over to fit a whole host of other fits? Such as New Holland 3000 series? We have a Ford/NH3910 here too so I might try that one IF I can't get there with a fix -- though I know it's a 3-bolt flange (vs. 2 on M series), but two of the flanges on the Ford are indeed opposite each other. I just wonder if it would engage the flywheel? They both share a 10-tooth gear. I'd like to think they didn't reinvent a new starter every time a new tractor model came out and just maybe one will engage/start the tractor from another?

However - my goal is simply to get this working, interchange as a LAST resort - so here's what I found:

-bushings front & back were horrible -- absolutely worn out, especially in front;
-paint inside the casing/windings was scuffed by the rotor so it was grounding out -- & now makes sense why it was working outside the tractor, but once mounted it would engage the flywheel, likely shift the armature, & shorted.
-brushes were half worn on two, other two good - which caught my curiosity until I checked the springs:
-springs, 2 were easy to move, 2 were hard - so they were pushing the rotor to one side, and also why the brushes were worn on one side.

I have a new rebuild kit coming. The front bushing came out easily - the back (outside) bushing is set in and will take some work.

Of the windings - I found where they sell 12v windings (& correct me but think this is a CCW winding?)... but am thinking if I can get by with the original 6v windings I'd leave them for now. It's VERY good news to know someone can add coils (4 vs. 2) if I find I need more cranking power. The engine turns over easily - maybe too easily, something we'll find out what other issues after I get the starter to work.
The starter likely was the reason they stopped using the tractor as I found part of a rats nest inside the flywheel chamber, turning over the engine by hand - so they had to have the starter out prior to me. (no rats around here as the barn cats long ago took care of any rodents)

To answer the question on cabling - I was bypassing the cables/switch & hot-wiring/jumping the starter directly, eliminating 'possibilities' - & would work forward from there once I could get this tractor to turn over.

----
Quick question - is this tractor worthy of putting real money into restoration? From what I've read they're fairly rare (2400 made?), one of the biggest(the biggest?) 2-cyl engine 'but' is painted yellow from factory, not green & not ag, so maybe not-so-hot as collectible? We bought it to do some hay moving work with the loader however I like the older nostalgia in simplicity being a 2-cylinder.
a151779.jpg

a151780.jpg
 
Not rare, not particularly desirable from a collector standpoint, but nonetheless a good tractor. Could be had ag green, was an available option, but yes, most were industrial yellow.
Not the biggest engine, one of the smallest, 113CI.
Starters and parts are readily available, I can get you a rebuilt in a matter of a couple days, same with most of the parts. Drive end housing can be the toughest, but normally don"t break unless on 12 volts.
Engine, trans, final drives and most other parts are common with 430 and some 420, so parts are not really a problem either.
Lavoy
jdcrawlers.com
 
UPDATE:
The rebuild kit arrived 3 days ago - rebuilt in less than an hour - easy, as I already had the top bushing out. Brushes are in properly, lining up with the armature when seated, not installed at an angle. The back bushing did NOT appear to come out (not a bushing but a permanent part of the back plate?)... so used it as-is knowing the front was the most important. If anyone knows where the 2n'd bushing goes let me know as I couldn't find any 'mid' point.

Testing the starter outside of the tractor & the thing F-L-E-W! Probably 4x the power of previous. However installing it in the tractor and jump-starting only gave me a couple SLOW rotations at a time, majorly heating up the cables. This 'is' a major improvement as before it would barely engage the flywheel - but still not enough power.

I cannot (!) figure out what could be making this engine drag on the starter. You can turn over the engine easily by hand moving the fan blade, at least until it starts the compression stroke & even then, not so tough since it's only 2-cyl. It's out of gear.... have no idea now. I feel the starter was dragging before given the front bushing worn + brush springs weak. Now it barely has any side-to-side play & zips outside the tractor. I'm emailing rebuilders now to see if I can buy 4-winding sets for Delco? (12v CCW windings) & see how difficult that might be to install? Or should I try to replace the armature first? This one wasn't shot - no burn marks of any kind, & I carefully cleaned between the segments so it's not sparking & losing power there.

This tractor engine needs to turn roughly 3x faster to get it to fire, minimum.

btw - more research on jamming another brand starter in there has me at a dead end. The JD M series is a CCW starter, which isn't common to many of the newer 12v replacement starters. I found a guy that will build a gear-reduction unit but at $400. (ouch)

Matthew
 
Mike, any chance you could tell me of some decent shops I could send this thing for the HD4 coils/windings? I'm at that point now -- needing more cranking power.

thanks
 
(quoted from post at 22:47:47 04/03/14) UPDATE:

Testing the starter outside of the tractor & the thing F-L-E-W! Probably 4x the power of previous. However installing it in the tractor and jump-starting only gave me a couple SLOW rotations at a time, majorly heating up the cables. This 'is' a major improvement as before it would barely engage the flywheel - but still not enough power.


Matthew

Measure the voltage applied to the starter from the "P" post to the starter's cast body while cranking.
 

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