About 30 years ago I installed an RG6466A Deere engine in an IHC TD20C dozer for a customer to replace a tired, and very expensive to rebuild ,DVT573.He was very happy with the repower until 2 years ago when it would no longer start at 10degrees F without aid.It now needs to be 40 to start with no aid .I pulled the injectors,which pop at 3800psi and have a good 6 hole spray pattern. While the injectors were out I checked the compression,in a 50degree shop,and it ranged from 395 to 440.The charge pressure going into the pump is 16 psi.Can anything in the pump,with only 4100 hours,cause it to start like that ?The service manual does not go into pump symptoms.
- Thread starter cushman
- Start date
DanTheJDMan
New User
Will it restart once you get it started? Does it rev way up until the governor wieghts pull the fuel rack off the magnet? Or does that engine have a rotary pump?
Top time the engine to make it start better cold. Just a little makes a big difference and in 4000 hours a little wear in the gears could make that difference.
I can't remember which way to make it top timed. but when you look through the hole in the timing gear cover to see the timing marks they should be straight across from each other as you turn the engine in the running direction and put the timing pin in the flywheel. What I can't remember is if the mark should be above or below the mark to be top timed. I would cheat up the width of the line. You know you are close or a little too far when you rev it up with no load and it flutters a little. It will sound great with a load but will flutter a little at high idle.
We got a bunch of 6410s in from Canada that all did that. They did start good cold and most people did not notice the flutter.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Cranking rpm may have been a place to have looked after checking just the timing and a hydraulic pump de-stroker next.
A 1/10 of a volt here, a 2/10 volt there and another 1/10 volt on high resistance connections and cables. Tired batteries, a worn starter and some extra drag from the closed center hydraulics.
I have yet to ever have somebody report back with voltage across the starter while cranking. That one simple test tells a lot. Seems however everybody has $$$ instead to randomly throw parts at the problem.
Pretty easy to drop 25-50 cranking rpm and loose cold weather starting ability.
There is a right powerful Delco inline PM reduction drive starter that will wail that engine over. With rpms closer to idle speed instead of cranking speed.
http://www.delcoremy.com/remy_44mt.html
A 1/10 of a volt here, a 2/10 volt there and another 1/10 volt on high resistance connections and cables. Tired batteries, a worn starter and some extra drag from the closed center hydraulics.
I have yet to ever have somebody report back with voltage across the starter while cranking. That one simple test tells a lot. Seems however everybody has $$$ instead to randomly throw parts at the problem.
Pretty easy to drop 25-50 cranking rpm and loose cold weather starting ability.
There is a right powerful Delco inline PM reduction drive starter that will wail that engine over. With rpms closer to idle speed instead of cranking speed.
http://www.delcoremy.com/remy_44mt.html
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
b&d
Does a IHC TD20C dozer have closed-center hyd's??
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Good point.
Looks like a newer version of the IH crawler I ran as a teenager.
Looks like a newer version of the IH crawler I ran as a teenager.
The TD20C is not closed center hydraulic,so electric destroke is not a consideration,the injection pump is a PES6-110 inline.I did not mention,but the timing is right on the mark according to the service manual.We put an electronic tach on it, which does not register cranking rpm,but with all the battery power it has, it's cranking speed sound as fast as anything we run in our business.It does rev up considerably until the governor releases the start latch.Once it has run for a while,it will always start well the rest of the day.Thank you all for you responces but I still need information.Where it is often parked, a block heater is not an option.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
My bet would be to try a voltage check while cranking. Then a Delco 44MT starter. It's your call.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
cushman
I wonder if fuel is draining back to tank from inj pump? There has been check valves at fuel filter that have failed that let fuel drain back.
Kent Petersen
Well-known Member
you can by that check valve for about $4.00 and install in the fitting on the filters it will make a big diff if the old one is lecking
DanTheJDMan
New User
It is easy to check if its draining back. just pump the tansfer pump on the side of the pump and listen for the fuel going over the return valve. When the pump is full of fuel it will make a sweaking sound as it goes by the little ball in the relief valve.
Hey that is an IDEA. if that is not holding back enough pressure it will start hard and not have enough horse power. Some of those have shims inside, and need to be set at the injection pump place. Could have something stuck in it. Not good because if it does it came from the pump.
Its good to hear the magnet is strong enough to hold the fuel rail. If they get weak it will not start well. It is sort of like a choke. Full fuel until it gets running.
You can always try top timing. It does not take much. The width of a line is sometimes enough. I think it is sooner that will make it start better. you will have to look at which direction the pump turns. This is making my head hurt. I usually just ask the injection pump place.
Thank all of you for your suggestions,this dozer has the fuel tank above the engine,so the fuel would not be draining away.When I checked the fuel pressure to the pump at 16psi at cranking speed, I assumed the operating fuel rail pressure was OK,was I correct?We could install a block heater,but it would require a generator to make it usable as this machine lives on a tile plow,and the owner would not like to cut and splice the tile each day to use the heater.I will try to get the owner to take a couple voltage tests to see if the voltage to the starter is week in the field at low temperature.B&D I would like more information on the starter you mentioned.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
http://www.delcoremy.com/starter-models/44mt-heavy-duty-starter.aspx
DanTheJDMan
New User
So the first question is always:
Is it smoking white when your cranking and it will not start?
If your not getting fuel it will not smoke white.
If your getting fuel and she is smoking white and not banging it is either a timing problem or a compression problem.
Heat and pressure. Compression ignition. All ether does is change the timing of the bang.
That is why in knocks so bad when you use too much.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The ether igniting and burning long before the piston is a TDC is the problem. Peak combustion chamber pressure is supposed to occur ATD.
Thank you B&D for the info on the starter,I contacted the owner today about doing some voltage tests and when he responds I will have more information.To Dan the JD man,yes it does pump out diesel fuel vapor when cranking, but I do not know if it is enough.I would like to know more about the top timing you mentioned.From the service manual specs,I have adequate compression,but something,maybe cranking speed ,has certainly changed it's cold starting.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
b&d
Do you know the PN & price for the correct Delco starter for a 466 cid(7.6L) engine from the website you posted?? All I saw was starters for big truck engines.
Thanks,Jim
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Just match the bolt pattern, tooth count and tooth pitch. Starter
are just about as a generic fit as socks.
are just about as a generic fit as socks.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
btw . Merry Christmas you crusty old cuss
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Merry Christmas/Happy New Year to you & your female BOSS. So is that how you state you don't know the PN & price of a starter for a 466??? :lol:
Hey I'm not crusty because I took my monthly bath this morning!!!!!!!!! :wink: That might be the POT calling the kettle black!!!!!!!!! :twisted:
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