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1949ABG 09-13-2012 15:18:17 208.126.169.237 Report to Moderator	Took the A out for a 20 mile tractor ride this weekend. The next day, there was a small puddle of transmission oil on the shop floor. There were also streaks under the platform that showed where it had ran down over the front of the axles. When I checked the rear end oil, it was all foamy. (It still is) The oil was new this Spring, and the old oil didn't look as bad as this stuff does. (Generic oil brand)Ideas??? [Reply]   [No Email]
1949ABG 09-14-2012 07:22:36 208.126.169.237 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to 1949ABG, 09-13-2012 15:18:17   Thanks for the suggestions guys. Didn't mean to start a feud! [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 09-14-2012 07:19:04 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to 1949ABG, 09-13-2012 15:18:17   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Well, I've never been shot, but I do believe that it hurts. Dew point outside the case. You made my point which is that the old air inside can only rain out it's water once, then it is dry, and cannot very well exchange with the moist air outside at a high enough rate to continue this microscopic weather system inside the gear case. Now...I'm precisely stating it from a technical perspective. I have a Briggs engine, Model A, I think, from the 30's. Bought it at a garage sale in '79 or so in Ohio. I took it home, changed the oil, and ran it enough to know it would need to be gone through later. So, it has followed me from 15 years in Ohio, stored in the barn, to 18 unheated years in Florida in the barn. Guess what? The oil has no moisture in it. Cast iron block, etc. Isn't that a micro demonstration of what I said? Again, explain why it does not occur in the Powr-Trol or the power steering reservoir? And why I don't get moisture in gear cases and I always wrap a diverter rag or bag around the stick? That's not a correlation? The condensation theory flies in the face of physics, and I've had a few college level courses, too, as well as FAA weather school. Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Since the case is not sealed, it will lose or gain air at the same rate as the atmosphere around it. That's why it is ambient. Think of a vinegar jug, long necked so the opening is a bottle cap size, filled with water sitting uncapped in the bottom of a swimming pool. How much exchange of those waters would you imagine? I'd say not too fast and not too much. You could try food coloring, but you would have an osmotic pressure effect that would taint you results. Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Well, 100% humidity is saturation, followed by precipitation, which is when it rains. It's not 100% all the time and it does just not rush to the gear case while it avoids going down into the vents for the Powr-Trol and power steering. I won't let go of that because those other two reservoirs should be just as available for this mystery water as the gearcase. What about my fuel tank? It sees more venting that the gear case, and I have a sight glass where I can easily view any collected moisture, yet I never have to dump it. If it's raining inside the gearcase, it should be raining in ALL reservoirs and tanks. Try this. Get a Mason jar. Fill it half way with gear oil and put the lid on it. Now punch a 7 penny nail sized hole in the top, and you have a vent approximately the same relative size as the gear case. Then set it in the protective building where you store your tractors, and let me know when it collects water. I predict that I'll be long gone by the time that happens. Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Let's say my 70D has air in the gear case equivalent to a 30 gallon trash bag, heck let's say two. That should cover it. So we have 60 gallons of air that can hold humidity. Tables tell me that one pound of air can hold .01 pound of water at 60F, and double that or .02 lbs of water at 80F. Now we need to find out how many pounds of air the gear case holds. For a gas at STP (standard temperature and pressure), PV=mRT, where P is the pressure, V is the volume, m is the mass, R is the gas constant, and T is the temperature. The volume of a pound of air is dependent on the pressure and temperature. Air has a mass of 28.97 lbm, and R for air is 53.34 ft-lbf/lbm-R. So for air at 14.7 psi and a temperature of 70 F (530 R): V=mRT/P = (28.97 lbm*53.34 ft-lbf/lbm-R*530 R)/ (14.7 lbf/in^2*144in^2/ft^2) V=387 ft^3=2894 gallons So if our gear case is 60 gallons, then it has .0207 pounds of air which could hold at most, at any time at 80F, .02*.0207*32 = .013248 ounces. Not gonna get much drainage out of that. To get the quart that is being spoke about, you would have to exchange that air AND COMPLETELY DRY IT OUT BY PRECIPITATION INTO THE GEAR OIL, TWO-THOUSAND-FOUR-HUNDRED-FIFTEEN TIMES. At remember, that air has to come and give up all of it's water. If it on gives up 10%, then the number is over 25,000 exchanges. Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Tried my best. F-I-T [Reply]  [No Email]
Larry Baker 09-14-2012 04:45:57 204.116.154.38 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to 1949ABG, 09-13-2012 15:18:17   Kurt 's right on the money.Here I can drain out of any tractor almost anywhere from a Qt to a gallon after the winter set and they are all inside.I do it to all of them before I move them in the spring,amazing,trans. and engine [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 09-14-2012 04:48:00 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to Larry Baker, 09-14-2012 04:45:57   But you never have to drain the Powr-Trol, which is vented as well, just not through a vertical stick up in the air.... Farmed for many years and never had water in the transission except when the rubber boot got tore on the VAC. [Reply]  [No Email]
clampdaddy 09-13-2012 18:26:03 50.8.151.226 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to 1949ABG, 09-13-2012 15:18:17   I have a McCormick O-6 that just aerates the heck out of the tranny oil. The guy I bought it from had changed the fluid right before he parked it ten years prior so I loosened the plug and drained out all of the water that had collected beneath the oil, fired it up and drove it home. When I got home the fluid was frothy pink so I figured I'd change it. A few weeks later when I finally got around to changing it the old oil looked like perfect, bright clear red, brand new fluid with not a trace of water in it. Go figure. [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 09-13-2012 16:08:41 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to 1949ABG, 09-13-2012 15:18:17   Did you park it outside? Or wash it? Rainwater runs down the gearshift lever and gets into the transmission. Don't believe that it's condensation. Not enough air exchange in the gear box to precipitate that much humidity. [Reply]  [No Email]
1949ABG 09-13-2012 17:49:20 208.126.169.237 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to F-I-T, 09-13-2012 16:08:41   Parked in the shed all year, never out in the rain. Just lightly hosed off some dust and bird poop before the tractor ride. I figured there wasn't a lot of point to making it sparkle since it wouldn't be real pretty by the time we got done going down 15 miles or so of gravel road. [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 09-13-2012 18:03:52 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to 1949ABG, 09-13-2012 17:49:20   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Well, the hose probably did it. It can't make water in the gear oil by itself. JMHO. [Reply]  [No Email]
Kurt_JDB 09-13-2012 20:32:48 74.167.224.109 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to F-I-T, 09-13-2012 18:03:52   Actually, It could very easily be condensation. Changes in air pressure will cause the case to "breathe". Cold day, and low pressure followed by a warm day with high humidity and high pressure will result in warm moist air being drawn into the case through the gear shift joint, the water will condense out of the air because the case is still cold. Very common. Kurt [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 09-14-2012 04:44:39 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to Kurt_JDB, 09-13-2012 20:32:48   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see If it's so common, then why don't I see it in my 70D and "H" which don't see rain water or get washed without a baggie over the transmission stick, and they live in the most humid state in the nation, where our temperatures will run from 15F to 105F? Why don't I see it in the Powr-Trol reservoir or the power steering reservoir, both of which are vented? Why don't I see it in the crankcase, transmission or rear end oil of my cars? My power washer, lawn mower gear case, trencher? The air mass of the transmission of my 70D is no larger than a trash bag, and the air inside doesn't come whooshing out and in every minute or two mlike a lung. The only thing common about this condensation thing is the misconception of the affect. [Reply]  [No Email]
Kurt_JDB 09-14-2012 06:05:25 70.154.102.34 Report to Moderator	Re: foamy transmission oil in reply to F-I-T, 09-14-2012 04:44:39   Hey FIT, Can't answer for your particular situation, but we certainly see it happen here in NC. You may not see it happen because the dew point is happening outside the case. Maybe the temperature differential where you store your tractors is not enough to cause condensation. But to discount the effect just because you have not experienced it is not what I would expect from a technical person. I guess I can drag out my ASHRAE book and we could go through the calcs. Might be interesting. What would be the air volume exchange for a certain change in atmospheric pressure? How much water would this volume of air hold at 100% humidity? what would be the volume of water that could condense out at a 20 degree temperature differential? how many cycles would this take to cause foamy oil? Does this pattern match the weather conditions and environment where the original poster stored his tractor? What do you think? Want to have a go at it? Kurt [Reply]  [No Email]