Knotter issue Newholland 273 square baler (newbie help)

Shealray

Member
Knot caught on bill hook. I think cam worn out need to replace bill hook(I think). Tried adjusting tension spring on cam. Looked for burs found one and sanded. Hate to buy parts and not fix issue. How do you tell when to knotter frame is worn out? I know the knife arm has to swipe the knot off. It is like the bill hook is not opening up the right time so the knife arm can clean the knot off. I do have knotter manual have tried what it suggested, but it has not helped enough.

So if bill hook tension spring adjustment not helping then cam roller worn out?

I know to change out bill hook you have to take a roll pin out. Is there a easy way to take roll pin out it is really stuck in there.

Thank you for your help.
 
Where do I start? Twine and or knots hanging on the bill hook is not unusual, especially in the first 3 to 5 bales.
This gives the twine time to polish the bill hook. Be sure the teeth in the bill hook do not have a burr that keeps the
twine from sliding off. Sharpen the knives, if it isn't cut it won't come off easily. Always carry a a sharp knife and
a pair of long reach nose pliers( harbor freight ) to cut the twine and pull off the knotter. The knots are pulled off
the knotter by pressure of the bale moving back in the chamber, so do you have enough pressure on the bales? A dozen
other things can be involved, but this is a place to start. A little WD40 on the billhooks when parked can help the
next time you bale. Last week the 1st 3 bales hung on the bill hook, then it tied 200 in a row.

If you have to take the billhook off use a punch the same size as the pin, center it carefully and drive it out. My
memory is that it is a solid pin not a roll pin.
 
One more thought. I assume one side is tying and one is not. Right? So as someone else slowly turns the baler over by hand, watch both knotters to see if there is a difference. That is the fastest way to see if the billhook is operating properly...like the good knotter.
 
That can be caused by a number of things. Dull twine knife. Or a twine knife arm not adjusted right. And probably a few other things I cannot think of at the moment.
 
Had the same exact issue on an old MF baler. A little different knotter, but I believe fairly similar. I had to sit down and go through the set up in the manual step by step, turning the baler over by hand and checking each setting called for in the manual. In my case I finally found the twine groove in the needle on the bad side was worn, therefor the "setting" was way off. I made an adjustment to achieve the dimension called for in the manual, and it's rarely missed a bale since.
Like mentioned, it could be a number of things. It'll take some time, but if you check the timing step by step I bet you find the problem.
 
(quoted from post at 11:20:09 09/25/18) Had the same exact issue on an old MF baler. A little different knotter, but I believe fairly similar. I had to sit down and go through the set up in the manual step by step, turning the baler over by hand and checking each setting called for in the manual. In my case I finally found the twine groove in the needle on the bad side was worn, therefor the "setting" was way off. I made an adjustment to achieve the dimension called for in the manual, and it's rarely missed a bale since.
Like mentioned, it could be a number of things. It'll take some time, but if you check the timing step by step I bet you find the problem.
ave worn groves in needles. Can I grind on them?
 
Chased this issue around for us last year. Threw a lot of parts at it until we discovered a slightly bent actuator rod caused by a froze up finger
plate attempting to rotate on bale one of the season.
 
picture of needle
24194.jpg
 
I may not be following, do you mean grind on the needles?
My manual called for a specific dimension, measured with the needle at it's highest point, from the twine to some other location (I can't recall where right now). The groove threw that dimension off, but the needle are adjustable to compensate. Again, mine is a Massey, but it looks similar to my neighbors NH.
 
Edit: now I understand what you mean.
Take a look in your manual and see if it calls out a specific dimension and see it it's in spec. I'd check mine, but being a different brand I don't want to give bad info.
 
Alot of good help already.. Ill add my two ceents..

Check the BUSHING on the twine knife arm for wear.. if not round then replace.. needs to roll on the cam and roll
smooth... YOU CANT GET THE TWINE KNIFE TOO SHARP.. I use a diamond file on mine.. razer sharp..

The knife arm push off should just lightly rub the bill hook to move the twine off..

Also the bill hook tightening nut should be adjusted with about three threads sticking out to start..then move
slightly when adjusting... alittle goes along way..
 
I put a new bill hook on mine this year. It would make a few knots then would build up two or three on the bill. The roller and bill were both in bad shape but always worked OK till now. I had lots more than three threads showing on the spring adjustment. The new hook took some playing around with the adjustment because the knots were tied and stripped but pulling apart. They weren't tight enough at first.
a281022.jpg

a281023.jpg
 
The billhook doesn't open to release the knot. The knot is removed from the billhook by a combination of the knife arm wiping it off,
and the tension on the twine pulling it off. An arm not wiping properly, or not enough bale tension will cause it to hang. This is
assuming it isn't wrapped around the billhook incorrectly. If the twine isn't actually fed into the billhook properly, it won't wipe
off, but it'll usually be all wrapped up around the billhook.

David
 
(quoted from post at 12:09:34 09/25/18) shealray,

In addition to following the manual to a "T", you might want to watch the New Holland training film on how the knotter works. I've found it to be very helpful.

Tom in TN
New Holland knotter operation
Looked closer at holdback dog springs just below knotter. I found they all where old and not spring enough. Will replace springs . You all are very kind to help me thank you.
 
Maybe NH and Massey baler knotters aren’t as similar as they appear, but the billhook does open to release the know on a MF.
 
I've never actually worked on a Massey, but on New Holland and Deere the billhook doesn't open to release the knot. It opens when
it's rotating to grab both twines. Then it closes on the twines. The wiper arm then cuts the one twine and wipes the loop that is
around the bill hook, past the ends of the twines that are held in the billhook. The billhook has to hold onto those twine ends to
pull them through the loop. It's why there is spring pressure on it. After the loop is wiped past the end of the billhook, the two
ends that are held in the billhook jaws are simply pulled out the side of the billhook jaw by the bale as it moves back. The
billhook can only open when it's turning as it has a cam that opens the jaw during revolution. It can't turn while the knife arm is
wiping the knot, so I can't see how it's possible to open and release the knot. Maybe Massey has an entirely different set up for
it's billhook.

David
 
Is there any twine wrapped around the billhook? If it's just the twine ends in the billhook of a properly formed knot, you should be
able to just pull it free. I'm guessing your knot isn't properly formed, so the real question is, how is the twine wrapped around the
billhook? If it looks like just two twines wrapped around the jaws with two twine ends grasped in the jaws of the billhook, then it's
most likely a wiper arm issue. If the twine is up over the roller of the billhook and higher on the shaft, then it's usually a twine
placement issue; twine disk, needle adjustment, or twine tension/routing issues. If there is a twine wrapped around the tongue of the
billhook, and what is kind of a knot basically tied onto the jaw of the billhook, that is usually due to the tucker finger not placing
the needle twine in tying position. Usually the most overlooked part of the tying process is the tucker fingers, but if the twine
isn't placed correctly, the knotter won't tie it correctly.

David
 
Has to be Tucker finger placed wrong. We tried adjusting it like the other side that works. Still knot stuck in duck jaws. Will look at manual again. Thank you for the information.
 

On both JD and NH balers the tucker fingers are the most likely cause of problems. You asked about grinding the groove out of the needle. I doubt that you can do it but to a degree you can adjust around the groove by adjusting the needle itself so that it brings the twine to the correct point next to the twine disc.
 
if all else try this..empty all grass from baler.. set the baler up as if you were going to start to bale.. So you want
the twine in the chamber up to knotter.. hope that you can get the bad knotter to hold twine.. I use bungie cords and
strap to the middle of twine and then to a bar on the back of baler (so there is pressure on twine) Have someone turn
the flywheel by hand and you watch in slow mo what is going on.. may have to do this couple times in order to watch
everything but you should be able to see exactly what its doing or not doing..make it do it slow mo should do it when
pto running..

Good luck
 
the groove in the needle can be brazed up and then filed to the correct shape, your twine looks like plastic if so to the right side of the picture there is a bolt to adjust the twine holder, book says 1/8" gap between flat spring and housing half that or less works better for plastic twine also those will springs loss tension over time, check the cam follower bearings on the bill hooks and knife arms for flat spots, chipped places and being worn under size, they should rotate freely, one other little item check the contact of the knife arm as it wipes the bill hook it should be snug but not binding I had one side on a 273 that never missed the other side was a constant problem with missing and the twine getting wrapped around the bill hook, previous owner had a new knife arm installed on that side I found the blade was riveted on wrong fixed that helped some but still had the same issues as I looked closer the old knife arm had a groove worn in it where it contacted the bill hook so I took a round file and filed the new one to match the old one then set it to rub snug against the bill hook 3000 bales latter it still works fine, as you mentioned earlier about the hay dog springs THEY WILL definitely cause tying problems, so will missing hay dogs, make sure they move freely and be sure to clean out from under the top ones because the chaff build up will hold them up out of the chamber, be persistent you will figure out what's wrong be sure to check the other possible causes posted by others earlier.
 

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