Case 435 square baler issues (knotters of course)

Farmer507

New User
Hello all, I'm new to the forum and rather new to hay making. I purchased a case IH 435 square baler in good condition this year. When I purchased it was baling perfect. Started baling hay that was down and fine tuning the bale chamber adjustment to create the perfect size bale. All of a sudden I am having bales with one side not tying on me! So aggravating, two weeks later and one ruined hay field, I still cannot solve the issue. I have adjusted twine disk, tried playing with the billhook tension, have attempted adjusting the needle but now I'm unsure if it is correct or not. I have changed parts, replaced the knife blade. I have went through most of the adjustments that relate to the knotter from the manual and still cannot get the outside knotter to tie. The twine is wrapping around the bill hook roller and not able to be strippped off by incoming hay. I first thought it was the disk timing but I have timed it several times and no changes. I can post pictures tomorrow but the twine is not always catching in the small notch that holds the twine in the disk, the disk is also setting identical to the side that ties in the home position but other times of the cycle it does not match, I don't know what else to do or to try. Hoping somebody with tried and true experience can help!
Thanks in advance.
 
I know New Holland knotters inside out but IH are different so can't help much except that it is dangerous to change individual adjustments in isolation, which we think might be out of whack. Chances are it will upset another adjustment elsewhere. Knotters are actually quite simple and robust and have changed little since the old reaper and binder days. Perhaps check if your needle is actually delivering twine to the holder properly. One way to check the operation of the entire knotting cycle is to first stop your tractor engine, take the key out of the tractor and put it in your pocket, then engage the PTO clutch on your tractor (if it is one you can engage without the engine running) trip knotter, and by hand, turn the flywheel over to tie a knot. As soon as the knotters begin to do their thing, stop and go back and look CAREFULLY to observe every minute operation of BOTH knotters. then rotate the flywheel one click of the over runnung pawl (half a turn on NH). The engaged PTO will hold it there. Go back and observe knotter action. Keep doing this one click at a time till knot is complete. Takes a few minutes but is very reliable way to isolate all adjustments. JUST DON'T LET ANYBODY WITH ITCHY FINGERS ANYWHERE NEAR THE TRACTOR AND KEEP THE KEYS IN YOUR POCKET. Best of luck!
 
Dowel pin in the gear that the worm gear drives could be broken or the nut that holds the worm gear on the shaft could be loose would be my guess if the twine disc keeps moving on you.
 
What are the Tucker fingers? The needle lays the twine in the twine disc and the disc rotates to grab the twine, I haven't noticed anything in the manual about tucker fingers.
 
What is odd about the twine disc is that every time I cycle the tying mechanism (by hand as mentioned above) the twine disc are in adjustment at the start and end every time, I will look at the dowel pin and the nut on the worm gear to confirm but wouldn't it not return to home position if something is broke holding it in place? I have a good feeling it is something about the twine disc causing the issue, or something is not doing its job once the twine is in the disc but I'm not certain. Thanks for all the responses! Keep the good thoughts coming!
 
1. slow the pto speed down on those IH balers!!! 2. have someone spin it by hand on a tying cycle and see what it is doing in detail.
 
I was having kinda the same issue on a jd 14t it would bale 20 or 30 then miss 1 or 2 then bale 15 to 20 then miss 1 again on and on. I checked twine disk, timed knotters and checked the wiper arm clearance against the bill hook nothing helped. Then I tripped the knotters and turned the the fly wheel over by hand until the needles was all the way in and noticed the side that I was having trouble was about 1/4 of a inch further away from twine disk. I adjusted the needle to 1/32 away from twine disk (per the manual) and is tying great again.I don't know about other balers but jd and nh are real close to the same.
Hope this helps joe
 
i used to work at IH dealer in mid wales 40 years ago but I did little with balers but when you say the twine is not held in the disc I remember one of the little lugs would break off the twine disc and the string would not be held also the small screws that need to be undone were usually tight to I hope this is helpful
 
Update:
Ok I have chgotcha cakes everything mentioned today and still no luck, best I can tell all the dowel pins are in place, I didn't check any tucker fingers but I couldn't locate the part in the book as I'm thinking case doesn't have them or calls them something different. I do know the issue is in the cycle of the twine disk, the one that does not tie is not cycling in sync with the side that works. When in the home position the disc is setting perfect but something is causing it to be "late" but once the knotting cycle is complete the disc is returning to the correct position. I am stumped, I hate to take it to a repair shop and pay big money to have it fixed but it's looking like my only option. Any thoughts on what could be causing the delay? I just don't understand how it is catching back up, watching it and turning it a little at a time, the disc on the good side are finished with their cycle earlier, I thought the issue could be in the canon that turns everything, maybe it was out of time with the rest but then bill hook seems to turn correctly and visually the two cans seem to be the same, there is a small chip out of the side that isn't tying just past where the gears stop for the disk but I don't think it's the issue cause they are already done cycling when anything gets to that point. Thanks for any help!

I uploaded some photos, the two close up pictures are of the discc at the same part of the cycle, showing how much off they are, the last photo is the side that is working correctly
 

Farmer. JD and NH have those foolish tucker fingers. Case IH and MMF do not. You said that best as you can tell the pins are in place. Yet you say that the offending disc runs late. You need to dig in deeper and see exactly how the disc is driven snd see why it is not driving. Do you have the knotter rotated up to service position?
 

Farmer. JD and NH have those foolish tucker fingers. Case IH and MMF do not. You said that best as you can tell the pins are in place. Yet you say that the offending disc runs late. You need to dig in deeper and see exactly how the disc is driven snd see why it is not driving. Do you have the knotter rotated up to service position?
 
There can be a couple different types of knoters. You should be able to lift the knoter as show crop said and look it over to see if a nut is loose etc. There is most likely two bolts on top that allow you to remove the knotter this would allow you to replace it or send it out for a rebuild. Please use your book as this is fairly simple in a way but not in others. Also look at the tabs or ears on the disc and see if one is broke this will allow a lot of issues. The green sisal 9000 twine tends to work best but the disc has to be shimmed/set for different twine. Don't rule out the bill hook just yet that can cause knot issues and twine wrapping around the hook itself. The twine knife is important and I would double check that along with its cross conector. Twine tension is also but IH balers are quite forgiving on that. I would look to see if a knotter was lose or moved left to right. I could do a lot more if I was there but I am not. If you just got this it may have had issues and they sold it. I have seen many balers work in the barn yard but were useless in the field. Also do not adjust a whole bunch of things all at one to fix this as others said. Having a spare knotter is very prudent and buys time.
 
Yes I do have it turned up working on it, there is a cam that
spins and drives a gear attached to a shaft, st the bottom of
the shaft is a wormgear that turns another gear which turns
the twine disc.
 
If the CIH knotter is driven like the MF as showcrop suggests, the MF knotter has a set of planetary gears that drive the twine discs. I had the sun gear crack on mine and it would tie intermittently and then not at all. Had to disassemble the knotter completely to find it. I hope this helps.
 
(quoted from post at 07:56:58 07/16/17) If the CIH knotter is driven like the MF as showcrop suggests, the MF knotter has a set of planetary gears that drive the twine discs. I had the sun gear crack on mine and it would tie intermittently and then not at all. Had to disassemble the knotter completely to find it. I hope this helps.

A friend has an MF 120 that he is trying out. After a few tries he found that the twine disc on one knottier would turn sometimes and not others. He found a sheared pin that still had some "pull" to it so that it would turn sometimes.
 
First you need to determine if has the Deering or the McCormick all twine knotters. Our 425 was an English baler. It had Deering knotters and never missed many. The 435 balers I have seen had McCormick knotters and I am sure if they ever used the Deerings on a 435.
 
Joco has the right answer. Fill the bail chamber with hay, let the plunger run several cycles with no hay, then turn off the tractor. Trip the knotter then turn the flywheel by hand, inspecting the knotter every 1/8th to 1/4 turn. Since one knotter seems to work, and the other doesn't, compare the two.
 
(quoted from post at 11:25:54 07/17/17) Hey No Crop. Better check your facts. A 425 has tucker fingers.

Sorry Bruti dear, I left out the "generally" that I usually put in a post such as that just in case there is an exception to the rule. Must be no one has brought me a 425 yet. So give the guy a break already and tell him exactly what he needs to do to make his 435 tie properly.
 

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