Knotter Woes Continue

New Holland 273 still hanging knots on the billhook.

1. Replaced billhook and roller
2. Replaced roller on back of knife arm.
3. Adjustments appear good - enough lift to clear twine.

A couple questions.

1. To decrease tension on billhook, do I tighten spring on loosen? Manual says to tighten spring but that seems counter-intuitive.
2. Does the adjustment on the twine finger plate have any effect? (Pic 1)
3. What about the rod that holds that in place? I noticed it had a bend. Have always owned this baler, nothing seems to have happened to have caused this to bend but it is and my other baler's is straight. (Pic 2).

Should we replace the wiper arms themselves? Appear to run the back of the billhook good and get the correct clearance...perhaps they are worn out themselves?
We are at a loss.
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Any time I have that problem I sharpen the twine knife's an also make sure the wiper is very close to the bill hooks. The wiper should be so close a fit that it takes a few ft/lbs to move them across the bill hooks
 
I've been following your posts on this problem. My shaft was bent like that for a long time. Not critical as long as you can get the fingers adjusted and it doesn't interfere with the cams. I finally straightened it after my clutch spring broke and the knotter cycled at the wrong time and bent the bracket. The way I read it, loosen the nut to decrease tension. Is the stripper arm contacting the heel of the bill to push the knot off? Maybe you have a combination of both conditions.
 
I found this video last year. It's about twenty minutes long. It covers the entire knotter system (timing, et. al.) so it has more than you need...but...

Sometimes, just watching and ruminating, something might come to mind.

I don't know who originally posted this, but it's an actual NH training video on setting up and troubleshooting knotters.

In your particular situation, I do like Old's comment about sharpening the knife on the wiper arm. If you're not getting a good clean cut, the knot won't be nice and tidy.

This video will also explain proper twine finger positioning and such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhebcb1abA
 
I had one side on a 273 would tie the other was bent and determined it was going to miss and rap up with twine, that side had a new arm and knife assy. but a closer look revealed the knife was riveted on wrong,repaired that, it still gave problems,I noticed the other arm was worn slightly where it contacted the bill hook so I filed a small curve in the new one and set it tight enough to the bill hook causing it to rub it firmly as it passed across,been working fine ever since,also make sure needle to knotter frame is set correct and the tucker fingers are adjusted correct.
 
Best to straighten that twine finger lever weld assembly. Pull the pin on the needle yoke and bring them up and check the twine finger clearance and position. Something caused the twine finger lever to bend [perhaps the finger hitting the needle?] and adjust things as per book. Finger tips flush to the needle slot and as close to the needle as possible. The twine discs look a bit slow as well. Also take any slack from the knotter stack by removing shim washers from the needle crank arm. Loosen the 1/2 bolt clamping the arm to the knotter shaft and remove the 3/8 cap screw at the end and take out some shims and reassemble and check for slack in the Knotter stack. Hope this helps......Ron
 
When you say "twine discs look slow". Do you mean to rotate them clockwise?

Also, I understand the twine finger assists with the formation of the knot, does it have any impact on the knotter wiper? My knotting is good.

When you refer to the knotter stack and removing any slack, do you mean whole assembly left to right or vertical. What encompasses the "knotter stack"?

Finally, my twine fingers are different:
My left knotter, the twine finger is very tight. The left one is loose. Should this be tight or loose?
 
Steve- Yes rotate the twine disk clockwise. Doesn't have much to do with the stripper arm problem but they never get any more advanced and can lead to the disk not holding both strings properly when the bill hook forms the knot. The knotter stack play is horizontal. When the shim washers are removed, the large flat washer on that 3/8 cap screw pulls the knotter shaft to the needle crank arm and takes the play out of all the gears. Also check where the stripper arm brass roller contacts the gear. It could need to be built up with weld. Generally the twine fingers are kind of loose and almost floppy. Hope this helps and good luck.The experience with this will help in the future......Ron
 
Left hand twine disk is worn from twine slipping. Look at it (above green circle) compared to the right one. With that groove worn it will not hold as it should, but yet has to slip slightly as the bill hook revolves.
 
(quoted from post at 06:17:54 07/11/17) There is a small, bright silver spot here, showing me that something is/has rubbed. Is this what may have caused the bend?
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One potential cause of bending that rod is having the knotter carriage mounting bolt, you know, the one that you take off to rotate the knotter assembly up so that you can work on it, either break or have the nut vibrate loose.

When the bolt comes loose, or breaks, the knotter carriage can fall down onto the twine fingers, preventing them from moving. Of course, you wouldn't know from the tractor seat; so the next time the knotters engage, they try to engage that rod to move the twine fingers...which can't move...and something has to give.

You said this baler was your brother's in a previous life?
Do you know if one of those bolts ever came loose?

As a side note, this happened to me; but I was lucky. It was toward the end of a day of baling, and there was a lot of chaff on top of the bale chamber. The chaff kept my knotter off of the twine fingers, at least enough so that nothing got bent. What it did do was shear the little pin that holds the twine disc pinion gear on its shaft.

Since then, I replaced my knotter carriage mounting bolts with stainless steel (so they're hard and hopefully won't corrode and break) and I use stainless steel nuts with locking nylon inserts on them...to keep the nuts from backing off under vibration. This also allows me to only tighten the bolts only enough to keep them from falling out; while allowing my knotter carriage to wiggle up and down a little; which old timers tell me allows the knotter a little play to better tie and release knots.
 
Come to think of it, I read all of these comments above about the twine disc looking "slow" or "worn" from slipping... I wonder...

Let's say your knotter carriage did fall down and bend the twine finger drive rod.

Let's say that, whenever that happened, someone was able to get the twine fingers re-adjusted so that the knotters still worked.

But maybe your the pin that holds your twine disc pinion gear was either broken or cracked...but the disc was still moving just by friction between the pinion gear and the twine disc shaft??

The twine disc pinion gear is the gear partially within your green circle. The shaft through it turns the twine discs.

Maybe have somebody turn the baler over by hand and watch that gear and shaft for a couple or a few knotter cycles. Does the shaft move EXACTLY with the pinion gear (which it should, if the pin is intact); or does it slip a little?
 
Looking at your photos, looks like your twine disks are quite worn and scored - are they 'free' to float a little behind the pinion? My NH 68 hayliner used to miss-tie if the twine disks got 'bound up' with dust and crud - and in 50 years of use they never got worn or scored the way your are? Is there a clue there?
 
I agree with old rarely is it a complicated multitude of problems a lot of times it's just a simple as the twine knife or something like that and definitely loosen up that not on the bill hook Cam.
 
i had trouble with my oliver 620 not tying my hay baler guy is very good with oliver baler the not tying was about to drive us nuts.
he changed first bill hook on bad side when that didn't solve the problem then twine now it works
once in awhile will push out a bale as long as hay is wide. how he got one of them on rack without breaking i don't know
when i was unloading i found this one and said there is no way that will make it up bale conveyor.
 
From the picture it looks like you have a knot formed, and the number two twine broke right after the knot. That would indicate that the wiper arm is removing the twine and something is breaking the twine after the knot if formed, if I am seeing the picture correctly.
 
Are you baling hay or straw? Also, you might try a different twine mainly the old sisel twine.
We baled some straw two years ago and it was extremely dry and dusty and our 273 started doing the same things yours is doing, only on one side. We were able to finish the field because it would only do it every 5th or 6th bale.
Before we were able to dig into the problem we baled some hay and it never missed scraping the knot off. We just did 300 straw bales over the weekend and it wasn't nearly as dry and it never missed. It could just be the conditions you're baling in or the twine. Ours is picky about the twine used.
 
Keep in mind I'm talking about a different brand here...

My 24T Deere has been on this farm since new. Last year I had the same issue as you. The tucker finger control rod was bending or twisting. I have a junk baler so I took the spare and put it on and adjusted everything up. It did it to the second one. It was only then that I realized that one of the stop tabs had broken off on one side causing the finger to break over center at pto speed and bind up. I welded a nut on top of the finger as a stop and straightened the rod the best I could. I cranked out 2000 bales that day after that and it never missed a one. At the end of the season I replaced the control rod with new so I didn't have to worry about it.

Make sure the tucker fingers aren't breaking over center causing them to bind up and put the rod in a jamb. A baler is the most precision piece of equipment on the farm. If you take a combine to the field and it won't thresh you can blame it on the conditions. If a baler won't tie it's always your fault! And quite frustrating, I might add.
 
question:
1> my manual says hanging knot on bill hook... loosen bill hook cam adjusting screw which is that nut counter clock..
2>yes twine fingers need to be correct.. Funny thing is on mine this year the twine finger was way out of adjustment when I went through mine this spring.. however it always tied..
3> hard to see in photos but I would def compare the bad knotter to the one that ties and fix and adjust..
I know that after going through mine and fixed the needle gap in the holes that bring the twine up to knotters.. adjusted fingers, adjusted twine discs,, with all that at proper settings.. then it was a matter of tinkering with the bill hook adjusting screw (start them out with threee threads showing and goo from there.. AND also on the twine disc holder nut.. start that at 1/8 and tighten both back and forth in very small amounts.. a little goes along way on both of these.. and of course you have to do this while baling.. It took me couple trips around and dropping a few bales before I narrowed it in..

One more thing..there is a saying that you cant see the forest because of the trees or something like that.. Have someone else go over the adjustments that you think are o.k. just to have different eyes.. sometimes that is the biggest help.

WHere you live anyone on this sight near by??
 
Couple things I have seen. The twine tension at the twine box was too high on mine. Maybe 1 in 50 bales broke. I loosened it up several times. Got better. Also, I had some sisal twine that kept twisting in the twine box and the twist would eventually cause a missed knot about every 30 bales. I use 7200 sisal only now. I think twine inconsistency is my biggest culprit. As others say, make sure the bad knotter gets adjusted to look and work exactly like the better one. And use the manual to go thru the steps.
 

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