Kicker Wagon Questions

Bill VA

Well-known Member
So I'm loading up on flat bed wagons that we stack off the baler and pull under shelter
until we can unload another day - if at all.

Kind of thinking down the road a bit if/when my kids may not be available that I might
convert these flat wagons to kicker wagons. Perhaps this route would give me a one man
haying operation. Kick bales on the same wagons I've got, but with kicker rack sides
added (I've got anywhere from 14 ft to 20 ft long wagons) and park them in the shelters
for unloading another day.

How practical is it to put sides on a wooden wagon, even a short 14ft wagon for a
kicker? It would be great if I could just recycle the wagons I've got rather than buy
the really nice steel purpose built steel wagons. Anyone converted a flat bed wagon to
a kicker wagon?

Looking at youtube videos, these throwers put the bales in all kinds of positions. I
gather that when you throw a bale from the baler into the wagon, ultra tight is the rule
for the bale strings. If the bale is tight, does it keep the bales from getting bent
under the weight of other bales - causing them to take a "set" and become difficult to
stack - after setting in the wagon a day or week?

I think a kicker would be the next step for us (one of these days) and kind of a natural
progression with our wagons and shelters designed to accomodate pulling wagons into
them. All I'd need to add is wooden(?) sides to the wagons and a pan thrower (for a
JD348 square baler) and I'm down to a one man operation if it comes to it.

Speaking of the 348 and pan thrower....

Just looking at the youtube videos, while a pan thrower probably isn't as fast as a belt
thrower (like on a New Holland baler), it seems to me that the arc of the throw for the
pan thrower and just the way it tosses the bale into the wagon would give more control
in filling the wagon - especially if I have a few 14 ft wagons? Is a pan thrower more
wagon filling friendly filling than a belt thrower, i.e. you can get more bales on a
wagon with a pan thrower via the throw arc/gentle placement vs rocketing a bale off the
top of the bale pile on the wagon with a belt thrower.

For now - we are getting along fine stacking wagons off the baler, but....

Down the road/long term, convert everything to kicker wagons and add a pan thrower for
the JD348 - what do you think?

Thanks!
Bill
 
Not difficult at all to add sides, a back and a front gate. I have built all of my wagons, except the one metal one I have and a few more. Had one that was built out of an old JD silage wagon. Took the front off, added a gate and extended the sides higher. It was only 14 feet long and worked fine. Almost any wagon will work. Never can have too many wagons when a storm is moving in.

The bales should be tight, but not so tight they explode when they hit in the wagon. Doesn't matter if using a belt or pan kicker, if the bales are not tight enough, neither one will work well. Too loose and not enough for the belts to grab, or with a pan, they don't fly correct.

With a pan type kicker you can fill the wagon fronts better as the bales are arced better and will sit in the wagon. Belt and roller types shoot the bale direct and there is no real arc to it. Think fast ball verses curve ball. With a pan the front of the wagon can be higher thus holding more bales.
 
When I was making hay but that ended in 1980 the only thing was homemade wood racks on the grain wagons. Had a 46 McCormick baler with the belt thrower. Dad wanted a Deere baler but could not find one in his price range thuss the McCormick. I liked that thrower, actually it was not a belt but a series of rollers instead of the belt. I never did like the Deere baler or that type of kicker. If I was doing hay now it would be a New Holland with the belt thrower. NO mater the model thrower you will want shorter bales than for hand stacking. The length is what will make you the problems with bales bending and leaving too big of gaps. We orignally had 36" bales as that was what the New Holland 66 baler was set on from the factory in 1955. Baled with that length for several years till Dad decided to go to the 30" setting as those 36" bales were just getting too heavy to handle. Never had stacking problems with the 30" bales. I forget what length the McCormick baler was set on when we bought it used in about 76. But we had problems with the bales bending and comming apart no mater how hard you tried tightening them up. Reset it to 24" and no problems and it stacked without the big holes and the biggest thing besides they were not comming apart was they were so much easier to handle to feed the dairy cows in the manger in the barn. The only problem was the elevator we had needed to be raised too steep to reach top of mow for storage and they would want to roll over backwards down the elevator so bough a longer elevator. I was young yet at that time but never very strong so the smaller bales were a plus and Dad was having hip problems from carring the milker bucks full of milk. When the dairy left and that was because we had lost the hauler due to his sickness. Dads hip problems dissapered. And the year before we got that kicker 3 of us got overcome with heat, 2 on the wagon and me in the mow and I had to wait for hours heaving all the time to see a Dr. And I had to drink salt water because I has sweated too much out. I can to this day tell when I need extra salt that the Drs now say do not use. Anyway one wagon had sides made up with 2x4 fastened straight up with 1x4 lengthwise. Others were made to just slip on top of the grain sideboards and made to fold down at the 4' height mark, all were 8' tall. Front end fold down to stand on to unload into elevator with legs attached to support the engate-table at proper height. And to hold them up just a 3/16" link chain in 2 pieces with a load boomer to tighten. We did have to have an anti spread chain in middle of wagon but it made no problems with the bales. You would possibly find some of your hay customers would like the shorter bales better because of the weight. Just the trade off is using a bit more twine. And 2 of my wagons were homemade out of 41-48 Ford Car front axles. Worked just as good as the Deere 953 gear. And the beds made like that on top of the grain boards they were just 6' wide. And I would not own an 8' wide bed.
 
First off Bill, I think you are doing what, 2-3000 bales per year? Maybe you are selling hay right off the wagon, if not, that?s still a pretty big order for a ?one-man operation?. Baling, stacking in a barn, loading out of the barn. I hope you can find a neighbor/high school kid/son that comes back home/whoever to help you unload wagons once your kids are gone. Running a dozen bales in to the mow, leaving the wagon and going in and stacking them gets old real quick. I don?t think I will waste keystrokes addressing the ?pan vs belt? debate, you have your JD baler that you will probably use for the next 25 years, if you want a thrower , you need a pan model for it, end of story. I was in your situation awhile ago, mulling over the ?build with wood vs. real steel racks? dilemma. I work off the farm as you do and a couple of old timers advised me not to waste my spare time pretending I am a carpenter. I know, everybody is on a budget. Watch the farm sales and buy a real kicker wagon, you wont regret it. If something has decent tires on it and you are able to store it under cover, it will pretty much hold its value. Maybe you will find a well-used one that needs a bed. Big deal, probably a $150 problem. However, if you have plenty of time to kill and enjoy running a circular saw and tightening carriage bolts, go for it. Also, in my experience, there seems to be a correlation between wooden racks and cheaper wagon gears.
And finally, since you are selling the hay, it has been my experience that you don?t want to leave the kicked bales in the wagon more than a day or two. Most of the bales will lose their form to varying degrees.
 
We built our own kicker wagons, just put sides all around them, with the front lower, and had a gate in the side. I used to kick 80-90 in and then stand up a row around the outside and kick in another 10-20.
 
Bill,
I've got a belt thrower on my NH, but my buddy has a pan thrower on his JD. The pan thrower doesn't like inconsistent bale length, but it seems to be easier on the bales. As far as leaving the bales on the wagon for a day or two - I do it, but try not to - it does de-form the bales
I don't mind stacking hay, so when the barn isn't too full I can unload a load, then go in and stack it. When it gets closer to full, I need the boys help. He's 16, so I've got him for another two years - then I may have to make some hard decisions
Pete
 

The best labor saver I've used is the Bale Basket. I've tried unloading from a stacked rack onto the elevator, but that takes 3 people- 1 getting the bales from 7-8 tiers high, 1 loading the elevator and 1 in the mow. The Bale Basket needs 1 less person. Still need 2 people, unless you have a mow conveyor and are willing to have the hay pile up in the mow. I never cared for that idea, having loaded out of a few of those barns. What a mess!

I've loaded the elevator off a kicker rack before and I think the Bale Basket is easier myself. Others may think differently.
 
Hi Bill , I think we are in the same boat . I sell about 3000 bales r so a year . Just got back into it , we dairied , raised hogs , cropped etc. I started with a thrower and 2 racks , which is what we used when I was much younger . I don't always have help . I looked at bale buggies and such . Found a 1010 nh satcker with single bale unloading . I love the thing and won't go back . I'm set up so I can drop 600 or so bales in the mow without touching them , then can stack next day early or whenever I need to. If I have help I bale and junior runs the wagon it works real well . The Baler never stops . The hauler never stops . If you have long trips you are probably better off with a thrower I guess . I 've ran a jd thrower also , like anything else it's got its quirksn but they work well . Up and down hills was what seemed to bother most .
 
The longer the bale the more the deform, that is why you need to go to shorter bales and then you do not have that problem. And I think most of the ladies would rather have the shorter lighter weight bales so they can handle them. I would not heasitate on leaving bales on wagon for a month except the hay around here you aim to cut every 30 days so would need to get them unloaded in about 2 weeks to be able to have for next round of cutting and artound of cutting you would usually be at it for 2-3 weeks from first field to last so from last field to back to first field would only leave you a week to get them unloaded for next cutting. But last cutting I would not heasitate to leave on wagons.
 
did small bales for years also. grew up with da d using kicker was okay but don't want leave wagons set loaded. iwent grapple accumulator setup loved it. for now thou i was you drop bales on ground put grapple on laoder and use your hay racks you have and you will not handle any. i sold out about 8 years ago now don't miss it.
 

When I was working 45 acres at around 2,000 bales per year, approx. half was picked up off the ground in the field. I had three kicker wagons that I bought used. They were all three steel sides on a wood deck. I rebuilt one about four years ago by lifting the sides up a little off the wood deck. All three side sets were set-up for the wood cross members to be a specific distance apart, so that could cause a problem with retrofitting. I have been a one man operation for nearly twenty years now. I handled only about a third of my bales. Everyone baling small squares around here throws 20-30 onto the wagon towards the middle, then we stack ten in the front, ten-fifteen in the back, then throw the rest in. having some stacked in the front increases your load a lot because the thrower just won't put them there. Having some in the back cushions them and helps reduce twisting. Once the load is even with the sides they will start to skip off. If you need to get a really big load on you can always stack some more in the back and front to help retain them
 
I would never have a balebasket for one reason, you dump the load in the yard go out and get the second load dump it in the rard you are farther away from the elevator then get the third load and you are farther away yet and so on. then you get them all dumped and befor you get them put away that rain comes onto the pile and you could never get it completely covered against the water that would run under the tarp and soak the bales from the bottom and then after you do get the bales up you still have the chaff laying in the yard or on the gravel drive that you cannot get picked up. Every wagon load we put up the chaff went into the barn on a wood floor and was ran through a hammer mill and put into the hog feed. Yoy try that hammermill on chalf that was picked up off a gravel drive and you will have a big mess with the stones you pick up going through that mill. And you can own a dozen wagons for the price of one basket. They are only good if you are reloading out in the field you are baling in and don't care if you leave the chaff in a pile along with any broken bales. I have seen too many bale baskets at work.
 
Not difficult to add sides to a wooden rack. All of our kicker wagons were all wood construction. If you use a belt type thrower make the back of the racks out of 2" lumber unless you use two uprights instead of one. We have had both belt type throwers and JD kickers. The JD kicker is easier to finesse the bales into corners of the rack and such. Kicker wagons full of hay really require the assistance of a decent bale hook to unload efficiently. Once you get the hang of hooking the right bale and you will tumble 5 or 6 bales at a time. No need to climb around the wagon. If you intend to just tumble bales into a shed or hay mow, you can do one man haying. Removing bales tumbled into a shed or hay mow requires a bit of experience with hooking the right bale at the right place.
 
I came real close last year to getting a bale basket. I really like those things. For us, time and labor are concerns. We spent way to much time
last year unloading wagons to get back in the field. This year we'll have enough wagons to make 1,000 bales in a day (if we can stand it) and
not have to unload any. We will have enough shelter space to park all of those wagons out of the weather too for unloading another day. My
shelters aren't really big enough to repeatedly pull in a bale basket and dump for stacking - but I really came CLOSE to buying one last year!

Labor - not a problem right now with all of the family involved or for several years going forward. However one of these days, it might. I'd like
to continue haying into retirement and want to setup the haying such that I don't have to lean on anyone except myself. Never really thought
about a kicker until we started loading up on wagons and shelter space. So instead of relying on a 2nd person just to bale onto the wagons -
forgetting about stacking, a kicker would let me or anyone else bale hay by themselves. Maybe later in the day some help is available, but if it's
1pm and I can start baling while my family is not available for a couple hours, I'm good to go. Load a wagon with a kicker, pull it in the shelter
and load another - up to 1,000 ish (probably less with a kicker) bales by myself.

Bill
 
Thanks every GREAT info! Never really thought about a kicker until we started loading up on wagons and more shelter space that can hold the wagons while loaded - for unloading another day.

We've added more reclaimed fields to what we have this year, minimum, I'm expecting 2,500 bales. Based on my soil samples, fertilizer/lime inputs driven by field conditions and expected potential yield targets - if the stars line up, doesn't rain and no show stopping breakdowns, we could exceed 3,500 bales. We have more fields to reclaim, but I could see up hitting 5,000 bales per year or more if we are smart, lucky, willing to work at it and mash these fields.

Thanks again,
Bill
 
If some of your wagons are the "standard" size for bale racks (at least the standard sizes we have in the Midwest), such as 9 x 16 or 8 x 16, you could just find the steel rack and mount that. Otherwise, as others have mentioned just make your own for whatever size wagon decks you have. At least two of the racks I use are products of local weld shops and are 1-inch square tubing or angle iron for the most part.

As far as throwers, I have a JD 24T with a pan thrower and it's handy for lofting up bales to fill up the front of a wagon, or to drop them into open spots in the back.
 

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