International 47 Baler - needle issue

dhermesc

Well-known Member
What would cause only one needle to bend? Twice last summer I had instances where the needles were in the chamber and only the needle closest to the feeder bent. Once after going down the road the carriage brake allowed the needles to gradually slip into the bale chamber and it was bent over sideways when I started to engage the PTO. The other happened with I was running it as full as I could and the wire tangled when it started a fresh spool and the carriage snapped a shear pin leaving the needles in the chamber. It bent the needle sideways again - only much worse. The plunger did not make impact either time as the stop worked as it should.

I had 4 extra needles at the beginning of last year, one of the bent ones has been straightened (so now I have 3) but the other is completely sprung and its a waste of time to try. Local "baler guy" has no idea how the needles are being taken out and I don't either. The feeder fork can not strike the needle (physically can't touch it). While I have needles are on hand it kills me to know that they are over $400 each (wire tie baler) - if you can find one (Parts search indicates only one at a dealer in Colorado in the entire US).
 
When you turn it over by hand do the needles both travel free of the openings? Sounds like maybe the needle U-mount is twisting or moving sideways letting one needle hit on the way in. Glad you mentioned the feeder forks.
 
That's not it. The needles are pretty well centered in the openings, if they got to far out of line they wouldn't be feeding the wire to the knotters with much accuracy.
 
(quoted from post at 19:13:43 01/28/16) It bent the needle sideways again - only much worse. The plunger did not make impact either time as the stop worked as it should.

Actually the PH isn't what bends the needle.

Either hay being pushed by PH or an obstruction in the slots in the PH can bend needle or needle contacting bale case or tying components.

Is the pin that attaches pitman arm to PH in correct location & secured?
 
I can't find a parts manual for a 55. A 57 has different needles so I would assume the 55 does too. The part I need is 667411R1 or 667411R11 - it was used on the 37, 47 and 46 wire tie balers. The needles on a 430 and 440 are different. Although I've been told you could move the entire carriage (needles and all) from a 440 or 430 and put it on a 47.
 
The first time it happened there was very little hay in the chamber and none being fed - I had finished one field and drove to the next and it bent just as I engaged the PTO - it wasn't in the "act" of tying - that was why I assumed the needles slipped into the chamber while going down the road. The second time it was running at capacity. What does "PH" stand for?
 
I just did another search - apparently there are 3 of them at Cowan Bros Agriculture - in England.
 
I agree that the plunger head misses the needles due to slots in the plunger head and only of those slots are filled or there's a wedge of hay between the needles and plunger head could there be damage.

I'm thinking there is a timing issue. Is it possible the packer forks are out of time - feeding a charge of hay to late/soon?

Also - on my New Holland 68, if I timed it to the marks on the knotter, my needles cam up into the bale chamber/plunger late. The tips if the needles were supposed to come into the bale chamber just after the plunger passed them by something like 3/4 inches. The plunger was almost full stroke when the needles came up. Other than that, all adjustments seemed to be fine, but I felt if the needles were coming into the plunger slots late, then they could be exposed as the plunger went back towards the tractor, leaving a portion of the needles exposed to hay spring back. Both needles were already brazed and I didn't want to take a chance. So I tossed out the marks on the knotter gear and retarded or advanced the knotters (can't remember now) such that the needles came into the plunger face per the manual, 3/4 inch. Also with the needles coming in late, the baler was on the ragged edge of tripping the plunger stop and that plunger stop had/has some mushrooming on its face too. Readjusting the needles to be in time with the plunger vs the marks on the knotter worked beautifully!

It is possible your needles and plunger are out of time enough to allow the needles to be somewhat exposed as the plunger retreats and hay spring back is bending your needles.

I'd recommend a thorough timing on the plunger to needles and the packer fork or at least checking it as a start.

Good luck,
Bill
 
A 55 needle is totally different.They are a welded 'assembley'/unit that has both needles welded to the cradle.No adjustment is possible on individual needles. Besides,the 55 makes a 15x19" bale. The needles are spaced differently,too.
 
if its not a timing issue,, and I would have bet on that, then check the needle brake, it should hold them tight and not let them move in the filed or moving down a rough road, like other stated, it can be something loose/worn/sheared ect letting things get where they are not supposed to be, one time on a NH I seen the bolts that held the brake disc had come loose and fell out,,, on that one it would let the plunger stop come out and shear the flywheel safety bolt,, keep looking you will find the issue
cnt
 
The needles travel freely through both openings. Actually at "rest" the tips of the needles are lined up with the slots, they really can't twist and hit the floor of the bale chamber - they could possibly hit the top of the chamber - and that might have happened the second time it bent one. It was pulling hard against the snagged wire while on the up swing as the needles were headed to the knotters and it was the snagged wire side that bent. If that happened should the needle have suffered the damage that it did? Shouldn't the shear bolt have snapped on impact before it destroyed its self?

The only issue with that is I would assume the snagged wire would have pulled it to the inside (towards the feeder) and then when it struck the top of the bale chamber it would have bent further to the inside. This one bent towards the outside - away from the feeder - in fact it bent so far it was touching the other needle.

Yes - I am sure they were shear bolts.
 
I know the needle brake is weak and that is why the needles were in the chamber after going down the road - but the second time it happened the baler had tripped and the needles were in motion to bring the wire to the knotters. I can't tell you if they actually made it to the knotters and the one bent on the upswing or the down swing. It was nearing dark and I was scrambing to get all the hay out the baler.
 

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