binding up syckle bar cutter

redneckmacguyver · May 1, 2015

bought a 455 new holland that has had some previous work done to it first 1/3 of bar has the teeth oriented with the formed impressions on the top other 2/3 of the bar has them on the bottom with bolts and nuts. the cutter head part number is 143 603 teeth /rock guard bu 215 a or 215 a rs the odd thing is there are 29 teeth on the teeth bar instead of 28 as in the new holland catalog. the clips on top of the bar are not touching anything and mismatched one high rise on sheet metal several forged lo rise it does have all the wear plates but some up some down.i know these cutters worked for over a century bu all this one does is gum up plug up and bind up. any new holland sickle bar cutter whisperers out there?
1 different manufacturers bar?
2 clips need to be down on teeth?
3 high rise clips on bolt and nut teeth for clearance ?
4 polish and sharpen teeth?
5 adjust sheeve to have higher stroke speed? pto 540 but sounds slow.
1 st gear slipping clutch to make 1.5 mph does not help.cant go slower.

please help
what say you ?

3' tall rye oats and costal bermuda (bumper year)

Traditional Farmer · May 1, 2015

I have a 456 NH which is very similar.I always start the season the with a NEW blade and a NEW belt.I guess what you are calling teeth are the sections on the blade.Don't waste your time and effort sharpening them they may seem sharp but put in new blade and you'll see the difference.Also adjust your hitch or the mower so the end points on the guards are slightly tilted up.And the hay has to be dry before you'll be able to cut it.

redneckmacguyver · May 1, 2015

its a bumper pull 2656 so no drawbar adjustment for tip angle. do the top mounted clips by design touch the teeth and press the teeth down on the rock guard or fingers? there a ton of slop on my knife bar(one of the reasons i think it might not be the correct one. and it has 29 knives instead of 28. per new holland parts manual.

redneckmacguyver · May 1, 2015

found the tip adjustment the back in line with the belt they are pointed up about 10 degrees now.

Bret4207 · May 2, 2015

(quoted from post at 13:50:18 05/01/15) bought a 455 new holland that has had some previous work done to it first 1/3 of bar has the teeth oriented with the formed impressions on the top other 2/3 of the bar has them on the bottom with bolts and nuts. the cutter head part number is 143 603 teeth /rock guard bu 215 a or 215 a rs the odd thing is there are 29 teeth on the teeth bar instead of 28 as in the new holland catalog. the clips on top of the bar are not touching anything and mismatched one high rise on sheet metal several forged lo rise it does have all the wear plates but some up some down.i know these cutters worked for over a century bu all this one does is gum up plug up and bind up. any new holland sickle bar cutter whisperers out there?
1 different manufacturers bar?
2 clips need to be down on teeth?
3 high rise clips on bolt and nut teeth for clearance ?
4 polish and sharpen teeth?
5 adjust sheeve to have higher stroke speed? pto 540 but sounds slow.
1 st gear slipping clutch to make 1.5 mph does not help.cant go slower.

please help
what say you ?

3' tall rye oats and costal bermuda (bumper year)

What you need first is an operators manual. That will tell you the hows and whys. 2ndly, it sounds like you need to pick up a spare cutter bar and to put a set of guards on it. New guards (the pointy things the "teeth" (sections) run between) usually wind up being nicely aligned and new sections or a new bar with new sections also usually line things up. That's half the battle since you're looking for a scissors cut type of action. The hold downs should lightly touch the tops of the sections when the bar and guards are in alignment. There are wear plates that go under the hold downs and provide some adjustment there and keep the bar held forward too.

Get the manual and it will get you started.

redneckmacguyver · May 2, 2015

What you need first is an operators manual. That will tell you the hows and whys. 2ndly, it sounds like you need to pick up a spare cutter bar and to put a set of guards on it. New guards (the pointy things the "teeth" (sections) run between) usually wind up being nicely aligned and new sections or a new bar with new sections also usually line things up. That's half the battle since you're looking for a scissors cut type of action. The hold downs should lightly touch the tops of the sections when the bar and guards are in alignment. There are wear plates that go under the hold downs and provide some adjustment there and keep the bar held forward too.

Get the manual and it will get you started. ok on the manual! you answered the question its the clips not keeping the knives down on the teeth allowing them to bind up both above and below the knives. the teeth have shiny wear spots on the back side cross bar but no wear what so ever on the larger front crossbar

Lazy WP · May 2, 2015

I know we all cut different types of hay, but I know I have sickles that are well over 5 years old, and have been sharpened numerous times. I run "double
hardened"smooth guards. German, if I can find them, under serrated sections, with pitman sticks. If I pay attention, and don't try to mow T posts, I can
generally get 3 years out of a Pitman stick, and my sickles will last up to 5 years.
When I was custom haying, I ran the same set up. Mowed with 2 sets of double 7 foot mowers, and would go over about 5000 acres a year. I would always
start the day out with sharp sickles, and switch to sharpened ones again at noon. On a good day we could mow a 1/4 per day.

Bret4207 · May 3, 2015

(quoted from post at 11:43:28 05/02/15)
ok on the manual! you answered the question its the clips not keeping the knives down on the teeth allowing them to bind up both above and below the knives. the teeth have shiny wear spots on the back side cross bar but no wear what so ever on the larger front crossbar

The guards have to be aligned with each other and at a reasonable height in relation to the bar for the sections to cut. You best best for fewest headaches is to start with new guards on the bar and new sections on the knife. Then at least you're starting from square one. You can hammer on the hold downs tillt he cows come home and still not get it to cut. The wear plates may or may not be there, the manual will tell you about them. Getting the lead and timing set right and the slop and wear taken out of things will help too. But you'll need the manual or an experienced person to get things started.

Remember that a sickle bar mower is a precision cutting instrument. You can't have the guards ledger plates at 27 different levels with dull edges and chipped sections and expect to have an easy time of it.

GordoSD · May 3, 2015

New bar with serrated on bottom section, bolts and nuts. New guards. hold downs to clear bolted bar , and adjusted to touch top of sections.
Then MOST IMPORTANT, Start at the guard closest to the inside of mower. Bend each one with 6 foot pipe to give you .015 clearance between ledger part of guard and the section. You should be able to move it back and forth easily by hand.
When it is all together and all adjustments have been performed run it with tractor in neutral for 5 minutes. Shut down and carefully check each guard and section for excess heat. those need readjustment.

LarryH · May 3, 2015

we work on these where is it plugging ---riser plates should be 2 tall and the rest short or low pro--i will try and
help you call link_disallowed days from 11-1 cst ask for larry

redneckmacguyver · May 4, 2015

(quoted from post at 07:00:56 05/03/15) New bar with serrated on bottom section, bolts and nuts. New guards. hold downs to clear bolted bar , and adjusted to touch top of sections.
Then MOST IMPORTANT, Start at the guard closest to the inside of mower. Bend each one with 6 foot pipe to give you .015 clearance between ledger part of guard and the section. You should be able to move it back and forth easily by hand.
When it is all together and all adjustments have been performed run it with tractor in neutral for 5 minutes. Shut down and carefully check each guard and section for excess heat. those need readjustment.

as seen here the 215 does not have a ledger plate http://www.sickleservice.com/parts/...tn-md-nh-guard-hay-and-grain-made-in-usa.html

Bret4207 · May 5, 2015

(quoted from post at 01:24:02 05/05/15)

(quoted from post at 07:00:56 05/03/15) New bar with serrated on bottom section, bolts and nuts. New guards. hold downs to clear bolted bar , and adjusted to touch top of sections.
Then MOST IMPORTANT, Start at the guard closest to the inside of mower. Bend each one with 6 foot pipe to give you .015 clearance between ledger part of guard and the section. You should be able to move it back and forth easily by hand.
When it is all together and all adjustments have been performed run it with tractor in neutral for 5 minutes. Shut down and carefully check each guard and section for excess heat. those need readjustment.

Click to expand...

as seen here the 215 does not have a ledger plate http://www.sickleservice.com/parts/...tn-md-nh-guard-hay-and-grain-made-in-usa.html

Of course it has a ledger plate, every sickle type guard has a ledger plate although it may not be replaceable. The ledger is simply the section of the guard that provides the shear edge for the section to cut against. The guards you linked to are haybine guards which may work for you or may not depending on your hay. Likely they will.

redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

Since i posted this i have discovered the one key component to making a cutter work is the hold down clipthat sits atop the cutter knives(sometimes called sections) and forces the knife down onto the ledger plate so that the shearing action can happen.
The serrations are on the knife to hold the individual blades of grass in place so they can be sheared off by the knife.(less slippage) some teeth/rockguards have a hard flat ledger plate with serrations also to assist in this function.
others have a cast by design ledger plate that is smooth. the edge tapers to a blunt point and does essentially the same function although arguably not as efficiently for grass.imo. hope this helps anyone else who has more questions than answers. everything else is just to support this action.

redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

this is the cutter knife or section [depending on the part of the country, region or manufacturer your dealing with]. The under serrated edge penetrates the plant stalk pinches it against the ledger plate and shears it off. the thicker the plant stalk the larger the teeth.imo.

this is a 11 guage plated underserrated knife with 2.065 hole spacing for nh. yes the hole spacing is different for different manufacturers.(we cant have just one knife for every manufacturer now can we?)

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redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

see below

redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

used for fine stemmed plants (like costal bermuda) has serrations on ledger teeth.

redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

(quoted from post at 09:14:11 05/10/15) And then if your really interested in the 0.010 inch alignment mentioned above in the thread you can order this unsharpened alignment gauge for the outrageous price of 6.50 U.S.D.

this is found at

http://www.sickleservice.com/parts/test-field-repair/sickle-adjustment-sample.html

just copy and paste in your browser.

redneckmacguyver · May 10, 2015

so you want to know what the hole spacing for the different manufacturers are.....

well here's your sign..

http://www.sickleservice.com/parts/sickle-sections.html

Bret4207 · May 11, 2015

(quoted from post at 11:43:52 05/10/15)

Okay friend, that's a haybine guard. It's not meant for "larger stalked plants", it's meant for a haybine (or swather) where you have a reel pulling the hay into the cutting area and the rolls. It's narrower in form, yes, and the spacing between the guard looks larger, but it's not because it's meant for larger stalked plants than grass/alfalfa. It's wider between the ledgers because the reel pulls the hay in, you get more volume and you can go faster...in theory at least. If you ever get a chance to see a corn binder, a machine meant to cut much, much thicker stemed plants, you'll see it uses a guard and section set up about like an old horse drawn mower, not like a haybine set up.

The top serrated, bottom serrated, smooth section/ledger debate has been going on for longer than I've been around. different areas tend to use different set ups. Some places you'll see all stub guards and not a traditional pointed guard in sight. Other places stub guards just don't work because of stones or animal mounds. Some crops respond best to one particular combination of guard and section, others are lots more forgiving. There is no one "right" combination.

redneckmacguyver · May 12, 2015

thanks forvthe greater comprehension. I discovered that the habine guards that came on my bar were the wrong ones. I could tell 1 fom webs parts and service catalog.
2 the knives were pointing away from the ledger plate at the front.
3 the guards did not have 218 forged into one tooth. so I ordered the correct g 218 dh guards. even with the clips down on the knives the knives were poining up about 25-30 thou.thats got to promote plugging up. and the knife slot inthe 218 dh looks smaller.

redneckmacguyver · May 12, 2015

thanks for the greater comprehension. I discovered that the habine guards that came on my bar were the wrong ones. I could tell 1 fom webs parts and service catalog.
2 the knives were pointing away from the ledger plate at the front.
3 the guards did not have 218 forged into one tooth. so I ordered the correct g 218 dh guards. even with the clips down on the knives the knives were poining up about 25-30 thou.thats got to promote plugging up.The knife slot inthe 218 dh looks smaller. hopefully the 218 guard; ledger plate floor will be lower than the 215 and will allow the knife tips to ride down on the ledger plate floor.

Bret4207 · May 13, 2015

Are there supposed to be wear plates on the bar? They tend to hold the knife forward and support the rear if the sections. Often that results in the sections aiming down hill a little when the hold downs are set right. There may be some rigs that never had them at all in which case you need to bend the guards up a little.

redneckmacguyver · May 17, 2015

(quoted from post at 04:39:49 05/13/15)
Are there supposed to be wear plates on the bar? They tend to hold the knife forward and support the rear if the sections. Often that results in the sections aiming down hill a little when the hold downs are set right. There may be some rigs that never had them at all in which case you need to bend the guards up a little.

bret the plate is either cast in one piece as in a haybine guard or is riveted to the individual tooth found on some 600 ,700,800,900 series teeth as in below.

redneckmacguyver · May 17, 2015

the bar wear plate would be the black triangle just below the silver nut with OUT the thread sticking out of it in the first picture with the orange bar and hold down.

Bret4207 · May 18, 2015

That's not a wear plate. A wear plate is a separate piece of thin steel that bolts under the hold down and sits so the back of the knife rides on it. It's about 2"x6" by a maybe .050. Not all machines used them, but the ones that did...it can make all the difference. It not only tilts the front of the section down towards the guard, but it holds the whole knife forward so the whole section is cutting against the whole ledger plate and not just part of it. If yours doesn't have them them don't worry about it. If they are supposed to be there I'd get some ASAP. Should be in the op manual.

redneckmacguyver · May 19, 2015

bret, thats what the supply catalog calls a wear plate. argue with them.

notice how the black triangle in the orange picture matches the corner in the catalog photo? i do.

Bret4207 · May 19, 2015

A wear plate fits BEHIND the guard and knife bar, not in front of the knife on the guard. I'm just trying to help you get your terms right and understand the parts and how they function together. You didn't know a section from a guard last week and now you're an expert that wants to get snotty? Have fun pal. You're on your own now.

redneckmacguyver · Jun 7, 2015

(quoted from post at 05:05:14 05/19/15)
A wear plate fits BEHIND the guard and knife bar, not in front of the knife on the guard. I'm just trying to help you get your terms right and understand the parts and how they function together. You didn't know a section from a guard last week and now you're an expert that wants to get snotty? Have fun pal. You're on your own now.

i never assumed i was anything but on my own, and good thing too! especially because of itchy red hot hemorrhoids and their effect on attitudes. cant rely on people who are verified flippant now can we?

binding up syckle bar cutter

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