Ideal Harvester Sickle Mower

I am going through my Great-Grandpa's mower to get it back in working order again. It had sat and the wheels were locked up on from sitting. All that is taken care of now and I have 3 questions.

1. The small gear shown in the closeup pictures it appears there are supposed to be 12 ball bearings that the gears spins on, however there is only 1 left in it now. I have ordered the ball bearings but we could not get the gear off of the shaft to put the bearings in. Does not appear to be a key that we can see. If not we will have to grind some of the casting with a notch to drop them in.

2. In the last pictures there is a bolt that goes through the tongue with a spring on it. Can anyone tell me the correct location of this and what this spring does? We had it off and the levers/foot lever worked pretty well. Then I remembered the spring as we thought it would assist in lifting the sickle but with the spring on it lifts the sickle, but then does not let you drop the sickle lower for mowing. The old tongue had a hole drilled in it for the bolt so that's why we remounted it there.

3. Last question, where would a person find the correct color orange to paint this and then a good picture to get any other coloring right on the mower? I want to use it first some then start painting it this year or next year.

I will attach links to a photobucket album for viewing of the pictures. If not email me and I can send them to you - thanks for any help!
Photobucket Pictures Sickle Mower

it's been quite a while but I think that gear is threaded on. It may be left hand threads. I think I have some out to the farm. I'll look today and see.
Shoot me an email and we can work this out. No, that spring is not right. Neither is the chain. They were painted pretty colors. I'll do some looking and see what I come up with. If I remember I used red, green and yellow. [email protected]

First off, we need to get it properly identified. Never heard of a mower with only the name Ideal. The full name of everything I have heard of is New Ideal and there are 2 sizes being the New Ideal being the smaller one then the New Ideal Giant being the larger one. I know I have an operators manual for the Giant and would have to check my books to know for sure if I have the parts book or not. Size could make a difference on how it was made. 5' bar or 6' bar? Think the Giant was only a 6' bar but would have to do some checking.

Well I looked at the mower again when I got home. It says "Deering Ideal" on one casting. Then on another "Deering Harvester Co'y." On the back part it says "Chicago USA." I cannot find any numbers on it and I measure the sickle and it measures 52" so roughly 4 ft.

There isn't a part number anywhere? I find that kind of odd, but I don't have a machine that old, either. I just started researching the IHC-merger company's part numbers by book, recently & don't have a physical example (machine) to verify anything. I can tell you that if there is a part number on anything, it would be something simple i.e. if you were to look for a number on the main frame casting, you might find a J 202, D 561 or D 587. The frame on yours looks to be a D 561 & with the triangular bell crank (#J 146) to lift the bar, it is most likely a Deering Ideal Plain Lift mower, made 1893 - 1911.

You should be able to pound the gear in on the shaft to get the key out. DON'T pound it in so far that you can't get something behind it to pry it back out. Immediatly after you get the gear all the way in, spray down the shaft & key with penetrating oil. If the key won't budge, give it some time. Tap on it with a hammer, a bit, while you wait. The last couple of rusted ones (keys) I freed up on my hayrake came off when I pryed the gear back out. It looks like the next part to come off might be a retaining nut? The parts book does not specify if there is a ball bearing assembly or not. I'm guessing there is a race machined into the casting & the nut holds the balls in place. Once that's apart, you should be able to insert the ball-bearing balls.

If you give me the length over the hooks & diameter of the spring, I should be able to tell you what it's for. I think it has something to do with balancing the mower mechanism while using horses. Horse hitches usually hitch onto the horses between 26" & 36". Your fixed drawbar hights are between 16" & 24. If the hitch isn't cut down to the right length, the mower might lean too far forward or back & is throwing the balance off.

The colors, I think, are reddish-orange with white wheels & a black or blue varnished cutterbar. A few of the companies that became IHC seemd to all have a similar paint job in the few years before the 1902 merger.

I noted on your mower, there is a large portion of casting missing. It should cover a majority of the gear-work on the back & help hold an intermediate gear in place. That gear looks to be missing, too. Have you tested it to see if the knife moves?

Mike

Hello Leroy! The '31 parts book I have covers the Ideal, New Ideal & New Ideal "B" series mowers & attachments. Seems the difference is the New Ideal mowers had an enclosed gearcase over the semi-open design of the Ideals. Not sure, yet, what the "B" series is all about.

Mike

Well I went out and spent some more time looking at the mower and hopefully have some more answers to help identify this.

While I don't see any Part #'s on the frame of the mower some of the bits and pieces do have #'s just not very visible. Looks like some of the part numbers are: D334, J168, D31D (unsure of that one), J98, and J100. I took more pictures, and as many as I could of the numbers stamped into the metal so you can look at the pictures to better see.

I don't think I will be able to pound that gear out like your thinking. I don't think the shaft is long enough for that to work, so I am hoping it is just simply threaded on there and I can make something to get into the splines on the gear to hold it while I try to spin it off. I took some better pictures of the shaft and got a good picture that shows the ball bearing in there as well.

The length of the spring is 7 inches, with a diameter or 1 3/4 inches, I took a picture of this. Also I am going to pull this with my John Deere 50 and measured the drawbar and it is at 14 inches, so hoping if I flip the drawbar that will net me the other 2 inches I need for it to be within the 16-24 inch range. I put a new tongue on it and kept it longer always thinking I can go back to shorter if I need.

I also took some pictures of the blue paint on the wheels and frame of the mower, just about everywhere there looks to be some blue paint underneath the orange. The sickle does move, needs a good oiling though and depending how much I am going to use it new knives probably. It does seem they were painted with Blue, Red and White, with different variations of what color goes where.

Thanks again.
Additional Pictures of Mower

There are at least 2 shafts and gears and a clutch missing and a piece of casting to hold those parts in place and as mike says that height is what your tractor drawbar is and that mower toung the front needs to be 30" off the grount to get the proper tilt for it to work.You would need an offset down hitch on the toung to get the correct height. And they did make the cutter bars in 4', 4 1/2' and 5' lengths, a 4 foot would use 16 sections on the knife, a 4 1/2 foot would take 18 sections and a 5' takes 20 sections. I dought that even the Amish mower parts yards would have what you are missing. That is too odd a mower for them to mess with. I think it is only yard art never to mow again. And I am dealing with McCormick No. 6, 7 & 9 and Deere No 4 for the Amish. They will not buy a mower that is not one of these numbers unless it is a Deere No 3 mower. I could get every part for one of those numbers but not for your mower.

I have a new ideal giant mower that is frozen, i am looking for an operators manual to see the internal parts so i know how to take apart. it was ours when i was growing up rescued out of the woods. would you be willing to send me a copy of your operators manual

Leroy - Did you look at the other pictures I posted yesterday though? That shows the other gears I have for the mower, and the rear shaft which engages the mower sickle is still on the bench I did not take a picture of that. I am sure parts would be very hard to find for it, I agree, that is why I am working with what I have hoping with a little luck we can get it fully apart and working. Hate to just have it be lawn art, but time will tell. If I could only get that gear off I think I would be in good shape.

Bryan, I do not have an operator's manual for this Mower, I do not have any literature on it. Sorry

My apologies for not responding sooner. It was 10PM by the time I got done last night. I'm taking dinner now, so I have a minute. The 12 tooth beveled pinion gear looks like it should unscrew from the shaft. I looked again at the parts manual & one end of the countershaft & crankshaft is threaded. There's no indication if the gear is threaded, though. I have a bunch of Deering & McCormick mower & binder gears floating around in the shed & will have time to look tomorrow. If you have a part number for the gear, I may have a replacement should you break yours. I should also have a box of sections & ledger plates if you need them. I believe they are the smooth ones. The serrated knives are hard to come by. Sorry, no guards. All good IH guards are hard to come by, the cheap replacements are a dime-a-dozen. I noticed it has a steel pitman. Very nice! Farmers back in the day must have thought those were the cat's ring-muscle over the wood ones. If you get a chance, see if there's a part number on there somewhere. It seems they were available on a few machines for only a few years.

I only have one part number, that you gave me, that came up in the book. It's J98, a bevel gear & spur pinion, 12 and 53 teeth. All the other numbers are very close, telling me that the parts coverage for your mower was discontinued by the time my parts manual came out (March of 1931). Not to say the parts were discontinued, either, just renumbered after some kind of alteration.

The gear shield that broke off of your mower was made as a separate casting by the time my book was issued. I guess the problem your great-grandfather had with the mower was fixed on the newer models. I haven't welded cast in some time, but it looks like it might be repairable.

I'll check in later, if I get a min. Otherwise, I'll poke around in the shed tomorrow AM & let you know my findings.

Mike

I did not see a sign of a shaft on a bench and the pictures I did see came thru very poorly.

Finding it may be a problem, doing very little now after heart surgery.

Well good news. I got that gear off tonight, it was indeed threaded on just like you guys posted on here, so thanks for the help! I will now have to wait for the ball bearings that I have ordered to come. Then I can put it back together and try it out. Once again, thanks for all the help with that gear. It's to bad a parts book/manual and any pictures are so hard to find, but with this old stuff that is expected.

Also I attached a picture I found today on Ebay that might be the mower...either first or the fourth mower I would think would be like mine.

Glad to hear you got the gear off. Was there any paint left on the threads when you got it off? That is one of the thrills of working with this machinery that I'll never tire of. That spot of paint that's been hiding from the elements, all these years, untouched.

To the best of my knowledge, the mowers above got their start before the Ideal line. When the New Ideals came out, the plain Deerings were retired. Your mower, by the way, is not a one-horse. One-horse equipment will have two smaller poles that are astride a horse vs a single pole to go between two horses.

What size bearings did you order? There's 1/2" & 5/8" listed in the book. I'm curious as to which ones your mower takes. Patience & about a year of ebaY time should yield the original manual for your mower. I don't know what you'd pay for one, but I wouldn't touch a near mint copy for more than $30. Just my $.02.

Mike

P.S. I do have a box-worth of D1140 smooth sections if you need some. I haven't found the ledger plates yet.

Yes I was shocked how easy that gear came off. It took some doing but I made a piece of iron to fit the gear and used a bar on the other end and it broke loose and then i could turn it off by hand. No paint...it was all greased up and lubed up though and the everything looked in good shape.

So you think the advertisement is earlier then my mower? Since it is a Deering Ideal some think it is before 1902. But then on the pitman there is an IHC logo. So that makes me think it was made after 1902 since it would have that logo after the merger. But New Ideal made them but only labeled them Ideal?

I actually measured them and they were about 9/16. But my friend who works at John Deere had the parts guy spec them so maybe he came up with something different.

It would be nice to find a manual. I have had pretty good luck finding stuff like that online so maybe some time will net me one. And once I get those bearings and get it put back together and look at the sickle we can see what I would need. Thanks for looking and for your help, it has been greatly appreciated and very valuable.

when ever you can get to it, thank you for all your time and help in this matter.

bryan

Ok, I had to find my "150 Years of International Harvester" book, IH production lists & use a touch of the '31 parts manual to get this bit of info. Those binders & mowers in the ad are the second & first generation (respectively) of machine to come out of the Deering factory, since it was established on Chicago's North Side in 1880. The mowers were basically the same machine since the company opened up shop. The plain & vertical lifts were first, followed by the "Deering Giants" in 1884-85. The first binders to come from Deering's new factory were of wood frame design & the first of the steel frames (the missing half of your picture) debuted in 1885. In 1893, the Ideal mower line was begun with lighter draft due to ball & roller bearings. The plain ol' Deering line of mowers was discontinued in 1897. The first "New Ideal" came out in 1905 & the "New Ideal "B"" in 1909. This is pretty much a condensed timeline, as the different models of mowers were introduced at various intervals & ran for different lengths of time i.e. the Ideal vertical lifts from 1902 - 1906 vs the Ideal one-horse vertical lifts from 1903 - 1911.

If I run across a manual, I'll let you know.

You're welcome & let us know the outcome of your mower.

Take care!
Mike

So do you think this mower is pre-1902 or 1902-1905? Did they label some mowers 'New Ideal' and some just Ideal like mine is (Deering Ideal)? I used to think it was pre 1902 but in that one spot there is a IHC logo so makes me think it would have been produced after the merger? Doesn't much matter but would help in finding a manual. I contacted the Wisconsin Historical Society and they sent me an old sickle mower manual. The part numbers don't line up with mine, but looks similar. I could email it to you if you wanted if you provide your email.

I will let you know the outcome. I will just repost on here? Will it bring it to the top of the forum then?

Well I bought a book over the weekend and got it in the mail today. 2nd Edition Encyclopedia of American Farm Implements & Antiques. So I scanned two pages where it talks about the Deering Mowers.

Book Picture 1 - in red shows what I presume would be close to my mower, made in late 1800's early 1900's but the wheel spokes are not like mine. My wheels are more like the mower above the bottom right mower.

Book Picture 2 - is of a mower that I can find on the internet in color but seems to have a different paint scheme then my mower would have, as it is after the IHC merger.

Book Picture 3 - lists the manufacturers of Mowers. Deering has 1905 by it, so it that when Deering went on there own, or dropped Ideal from the mower? What about the Deering Ideal Junior Giant? Would that maybe be mine?

The Wisconsin Historical Society sent me the last two items, a color picture of a mower, which I believer is the Book Picture 2 just in color. And the last is the cover of a manual/parts list for a Deering Ideal Mower, but the part numbers to not match mine.

It's always hard to tell exactly when something like your mower or my hay rake was made. Replaced parts through the years can be misleading. Your mower could have been purchased in 1898 & had a few expendable parts replaced, guards, knives, etc. or had a casting that cracked due to a design flaw & was changed out for a similar part from an Ideal or New Ideal mower made after 1902. Any major castings (frame, wheels, etc.) on your machine should not have an IHC affixed to them. Then it would be safe to say it's at least pre-merger. We'd really need a few generations of early IH hay machines master parts catalogs to say for certain what you have.

Another example is my hay rake. It is getting a set of tooth pipes that actually predate the replacements that my Grandpa added in the late 50's & are most likely near original. They are blue! Never in a million years did I expect to run across blue replacements. They should be IH 50 red, 2150 red or tillage tool black. If they were white with twice as many holes they would be Keystone & certainly NOT going on the rake. Lol! I'm having a very hard time comming to terms with the fact that I have to use these beauties. Anyway, what if someone (if anyone still gives a cr@p!) 50 years down the road were to dissect my rake? Would he be astonished at it's originallity or know enough to say, "Oh, these R 15020+ numbers indicate the rake saw such & such a new part installed after 1945 & RC 908 has been updated three times since it's first forging for use on the Canadian import model after 1917."?

Not to scold, but please, please, please be careful posting photos & other items, especially from historical societies. Those books & manuals are the bread & butter that keep the doors open & the phones & emails answered. They may also be copyrighted & by more than one party.

I'm pooped & need to get some shut-eye. I see your email is open on your initial post about the mower. I'll send you my email tomorrow & we can swap info about the mowers from our manuals.

Mike

The only place I have found the IHC is on the back side of the pitman where it bolts onto the circular deal that spins the sickle. That part is threaded onto the steel rod, and on the backside it says IHC, that's the only spot I see it.

Wow...you found some parts that old huh and doesn't even sound like they were used if at all! That is neat. The main reason I am just trying to figured out the age is not really for the age but just to know how to paint the darn thing, if i go to the work of painting it I want it to be the right colors, but it's old enough i doubt anyone will pick it out and say that's wrong, but never know haha.

Yes, I just about didn't post those articles but then thought well it's worth a shot. I shouldn't have though.

Don't worry you have been a big help, I came home last night and took a quick nap as well. Gotta do that sometimes. Thanks again.

Oh also I heard from my friend who works at John Deere and half of the order of ball bearings came in, the other half are due by August 6th. So another week and I will have them all to put in and try it out.

Is the gear screwed colckwise or counter clockwise on the shaft??

I need to change the shaft bearings/bushings, but I cannot get the gear off... I don't want to break anything.

Thanks

(quoted from post at 14:58:36 07/05/14) Is the gear screwed colckwise or counter clockwise on the shaft??

I need to change the shaft bearings/bushings, but I cannot get the gear off... I don't want to break anything.

Thanks

Click to expand...

Olibuilt, it's counter clockwise or aka backwards threaded - left handed threads I guess you'd say.

What I ended up doing is took a piece of welding steel and cut it out with a torch so i could slip it over the gear, then tighten the nut on the back so it hit on the frame of the mower, then it popped right loose easier and that way didn't risk breaking the gear.

Would you happen to be able to email pics of your mower? I would be curious to compare it to mine. Thanks!

Have you remove the ''ring gear'' to get the little pinion gear out?? I don't see how I could slip something over when everything is in place.

I tought using the ring gear to ''lock'' the little gear, then unscrew it by turning the flywheel.

I would like to post some pics, even a little video, but my account is too new...

Here is the thing. Just need a little love and blood...

And a little video of the mower in action:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos?pid=6032631073368385026&oid=105490108664726659876

I now know that the gear has a regular thread on my mower model....

A little heat, and tried to unscrew it. The wrong way for sure. It broke in 3 pieces. :shock:

Will need to fabricate a gear, or weld this one and see how long it goes.


Good thing is that I was able to get the flywheel out. A little heat and a zip gun on the long shaft did the job. So we will be good to make 2 new bushings for the main shaft.




If anyone has a gear, let me know.

Olibuilt, email me if you like, my email should be here, I see yours isn't open.

I think your mower is new then mine, mine doesn't say 'New Ideal' on it. Just 'Deering Ideal' - anyways, email me if you want and I can send you some pictures - I think I have pics with my mower all apart and me getting that gear off. To bad yours broke, never fun when that happens, but fun to work on the old stuff!

New bushings were made out of brass.





Had to machine down the main shaft too.




The gear was welded with iron cast welding rod. A ring and backing washer was welded too to reinforce the gear. The gear went in the oven at 1630 degree F and cooled slowly for ''normalizing''.











All greased up, it works perfectly for now. Even bette than before. Did another 600' x 150' mowing, behind the Suzuki Sidekick at about 2-3 mph.