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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm

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Nathan S

07-30-2007 13:36:01




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What was the purpose of developing the faster pto speed of 1000rpm? Is there any advantage of using 1000rpm rather than 540rpm? I am looking into purchasing a used batwing mower and was wondering what speed would be better to have. Does the 1000rpm pto put more wear on the drivelines on equipment? Does the blade speed actually increase or is is geared down in the gear boxes?

Thanks
Nathan




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JBMac

07-31-2007 07:08:42




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
All this being said. Can I run the Vermeer 604j that I just purchased with my Massey Ferguson 175? I think that it is a 1000 rpm baler that will be coupled to a 540 rpm tractor. It makes 64 pto horspower. Thanks.



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JMS/MN

07-31-2007 10:09:41




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to JBMac, 07-31-2007 07:08:42  
Some machines, like my NI round baler, have gearboxes that can be reversed. ie, input shaft becomes the output shaft- so depending on how it is mounted on the machine, it turns at either 540 or 1000rpm. Check your operator manual to see if it is possible on yours. When my 540 yoke broke, I switched to a 1000 yoke and reversed the box, since I normally baled with the tractor used for chopping hay. No need to switch tractor shafts when switching machines.

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georgeky

07-31-2007 08:23:12




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to JBMac, 07-31-2007 07:08:42  
No. If it is a 1000 rpm baler it will have to be hooked to a 1000 RPM shaft. The 540 will not turn it at correct speeds.



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supera3

07-30-2007 19:11:10




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
7600 Ford & 2940 JD books say "do not use 540 shaft for over 60 HP" use 1000 for 60 and up!



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Nathan S

07-30-2007 18:12:50




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
Is there a power loss at the implement with the 1000 pto speed?

Thanks
Nathan



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RodInNS

07-30-2007 18:46:52




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 18:12:50  
NO. Well. Yes/No/Mabey. At most it would be very very slight. It would depend on whether the impliment was geared up or down relative to shaft speed.
The point of what I'm trying to say is that the more gearboxes and reducers you remove from a driveline, the less parasitic loss you have.... so you might be adding gearboxes or removing them depending on the impliment.

The important thing to remember is that whatever the impliment, it requires a certain amount of power to turn. Whether you get that power there with twice the torque and half the speed (540), or twice the speed and half the torque (1000), it really makes no appreciable difference to the power requirement.
The only difference with a 1000 driveline is that there will be far less torque going through the shaft for a given amount of power, thus the likelyhood of a shaft being twisted off is reduced. 1000 rpm is generally spec'd on anything requiring more than 75 PTO hp to run...

Rod

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mowr

07-30-2007 18:05:39




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
Different gear reduction boxes keep the blade speed the same on both setups. If you try to run a 540 mower at 1000, bad things happen, of course. If you're lucky, everything vibrates itself to death. If you're not, the blades (or pieces of blades and other things) fly fast and far.



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Gerald J.

07-30-2007 16:15:08




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
Some where between 75 and 90 Hp you start twisting off 540 RPM 1-3/8" 6 spline shafts. The larger spline and higher speed of 1000 RPM transfers more power without twisting off shafts, though it has a power limit too.

Gerald J.



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RickB

07-30-2007 16:43:51




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 Exactly right, and...... in reply to Gerald J., 07-30-2007 16:15:08  
Batwing rotary mowers are just about the biggest cause of twisted-off 540 rpm tractor output shafts out there. Anyone looking at a batwing to be run with a tractor that is 1000 rpm capable should strongly consider a 1000 rpm machine.



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georgeky

07-30-2007 16:40:35




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Gerald J., 07-30-2007 16:15:08  
Now we are getting somewhere. The purpose of the 1000 RPM PTO is to reduce the amount of power transfered from large powerful tractors as not to break things such as drive shafts,gear boxes and whatever. You know right off the higher something is geared as the difference between 540 and 1000 the more power is required to turn it. With high power and the 540 it will just ring things off. The 1000 RPM shaft takes more power from the tractor in order to turn the implement. I have rung the drive shaft out of my NH grinder mixer a couple times with the 4440 just putting it in gear. If it had been a 1000 RPM grinder it would have been equivelent to starting it out with a 70 HP tractor instead of a 140 HP tractor.

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Gerald J.

07-30-2007 18:35:02




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to georgeky, 07-30-2007 16:40:35  
Not quite. 1000 rpm PTO runs a lower torque for the same horsepower, not lower power. That lower torque doesn't twist shafts. But the 1000 rpm spline is also a bit stronger.

Gerald J.



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georgeky

07-30-2007 18:58:05




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Gerald J., 07-30-2007 18:35:02  
Gerald, I don't really know, but it seems to me that any time you double the speed through gearing that you also are cutting the power down by about the same ratio.



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Gerald J.

07-30-2007 20:22:17




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to georgeky, 07-30-2007 18:58:05  
You are mixing force and power. Power is force through a distance, which for a rotating shaft is torque at a rotation speed. Power is a function of torque times speed. When you increase the speed you reduce the torque for the same power. And since its torque (force) that twists a shaft off, increased speed allows for more power transmission with a shaft of given strength.

Gerald J.



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georgeky

07-30-2007 20:43:10




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Gerald J., 07-30-2007 20:22:17  
That may well be. The function of the 1000 RPM PTO is still reducing force,torque,power or what have you to keep from twisting things in two.



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buickanddeere

07-30-2007 20:59:09




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm mrk III in reply to georgeky, 07-30-2007 20:43:10  
No, no, no. Torque and power are two different measurements of two different but related item. Toque and power are about the same a pants vs. shirts.

Horse Power = torque x rpm _____ _____ 5252 Mechanical power is force x distance divided by a mathematical constant.



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georgeky

07-30-2007 21:16:22




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm mrk III in reply to buickanddeere, 07-30-2007 20:59:09  
Lets forget about torque and HP for a minute and talk about the purpose of the 1000 RPM PTO. Is it not to keep from ringing things in two with a high HP/torque tractor?



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buickanddeere

07-31-2007 05:01:50




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm mrk III in reply to georgeky, 07-30-2007 21:16:22  
540 & 1000rpm pto's can carry the same amount or HP. The 1000rpm equipment is smaller & lighter per HP. As for forgetting about what we don't understand? That's dangerous policy.



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georgeky

07-31-2007 06:43:50




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm mrk III in reply to buickanddeere, 07-31-2007 05:01:50  
I understand that the bigger and stronger the tractor is that the 1000 RPM implements are needed to avoid damage to the tractor or them. I am a farmer, I don't have to understand all the physics of them. I only have two 1000 RPM implements a Berkley 6 inch water pump and my JD silage cutter. I wish the chopper was 540 as I sold the 4440 I pulled it with several years ago. I now pull it what little I use it with a 7610 Ford since that is the most powerful tractor I have with the 1000 RPM PTO.

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buickanddeere

07-30-2007 20:58:18




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to georgeky, 07-30-2007 20:43:10  
No, no, no. Torque and power are two different measurements of two different but related item. Toque and power are about the same a pants vs. shirts.

Horse Power = torque x rpm _____ _____ 5252 Mechanical power is force x distance.



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buickanddeere

07-30-2007 20:58:04




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to georgeky, 07-30-2007 20:43:10  
No, no, no. Torque and power are two different measurements of two different but related item. Toque and power are about the same a pants vs. shirts.

Horse Power = torque x rpm _____ _____ 5252 Mechanical power is force x distance.



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ChrisLSD

07-30-2007 15:02:57




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
Joe is exactly right - but they did this so they can have lighter cheaper driveshafts that still transmit good power



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Joe(TX)

07-30-2007 14:16:58




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 Re: PTO Speed 1000rpm vs. 540rpm in reply to Nathan S, 07-30-2007 13:36:01  
The advantage is that you can transmit 85% mre hp through the same driveline by using the higher speed. The mower gear box slows it.



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