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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

IHC plows

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Bill, in Ontario

03-14-2006 09:39:20
198.103.96.11



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Looking for information on early International Harvester trail plows. I have heard the term "Ace Bottom" used with IHC plows, is this a specific model different from other IHC models or were all early IHC plows Ace Bottoms? Also, I seem to recall early plows were painted a navy blue on the frames with cream coloured wheels, is this correct? Thanks.....Bill




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MA XHILLS

03-16-2006 20:06:22
24.176.0.172



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
I have in my hot little hands my {I think} the Little Genius Owners manual. The cover page is missing , starts on page 3. Just in pictures alone it shows 38 and 13 moldboards. I have 2 Little Genius 2/14's. One has shins and other has the moldboard without. The is no mention of Ace bottoms with terms of stubble,scotch clipper,corkscrew,high speed,blackland,and deep tillage{3/8 thick share}. There a lot more info but I don't have the patience to put all down. Maybe someday can find somebody I would trust to make copies of so I can put this one away to preserve it. It tells how to set the hitch, sharpen the shares , set draft, etc.

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tim[in]

03-16-2006 07:55:07
69.95.62.253



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
most people i think in the us call them sod or alfalfa bottom. they were used for plowing up sod. louis bromfield wrote about them in one book. he call it a scotch plow. he used it on a ford fergie. it was mounted. most around here anyhow , just used the bottoms that were general purpose and best for plowing under corn stalks.we rarely hear of plowing matches around here unless they are anouncing the winners of one somewhere.i think a lot of todays climate of veiwing your neighbor as an adversary and competiton have a lot to do with that. used to be corn picking contests with mechanical pickers. i guess competing with combines and corn heads wasnt the same or everyone was just too busy trying to accumulate more acres.i think moldboard plowing still has a place today but the govt will never admit that. lol

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Tom from Ontario

03-15-2006 16:17:45
216.183.142.22



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
An Ace bottom was the generic term for IHC's narrow bottom. The same plough could be fitted with the X bottom and that's what our American friends got. 95% of Ontario ploughing in the 40's and 50's was either old sod or grain stubble so we got narrow bottoms.. It wsas only when we started to plough cornstalks we got 14 inch bottoms or better. As far as the IPM goes, I respectfully submit that a Massey Plough with 202 bottoms would make an IH plough owner run weeping into the night. I say this because I owned both and ploughed at the IPM with both. The IH lasted for one class and got parked.

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Hugh MacKay

03-17-2006 03:26:30
216.208.58.124



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Tom from Ontario, 03-15-2006 16:17:45  
Tom: I'm not about to argue makes and models of plows here. However I don't buy the argument of the cornstalks causing the Ace or Scotch bottom to disapear. I know Ace bottoms, at least on IH plows could be ordered in 14" and 16" versions, thus I expect other companies offered the same. I've plowed cornstalks with a 2x16" Ace bottom and they work quite well, maybe just a shade better than Super Chief bottoms on IH No. 60 or 500 series plows. I agree they wont match the 70 or 700 series IH plows.

It wasn't farmers that ended Ace or Scotch bottoms, but rather those North American corperate boneheads that decided we could use the same plow continent wide for all conditions. What did it gain them? Eastern Canada became dotted with Europens plows, equiped with bottoms having many of the features and design of Ace or Scotch bottoms.

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Allan In NE

03-15-2006 17:08:53
148.78.243.26



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Tom from Ontario, 03-15-2006 16:17:45  
I agree.

There's just something about those Masseys. Pull about 30% easier than the IHs.

Allan



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Allan In NE

03-15-2006 17:06:22
148.78.243.26



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Tom from Ontario, 03-15-2006 16:17:45  
I agree.

There's just something about those Masseys. Pull about 30% easier than the IHs.

Allan



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MJ in the UK

03-15-2006 02:03:10
195.92.168.166



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
Hi Bill. I had thi wonderfull diccussion with Hugh about three months ago. ACE bottoms were fitted to the NO 8 trailed ploughs witch came to the UK in the 1940s. When IH started building B8A ploughs at Doncaster UK works in 1949 they used ACE bottoms. They carried on using ACEbottoms on all the UK built mounted ploughs well into the 1960s. I compete in ploughing matches every year with a UK built B250 tractor and an IH B12 two furrow plough with ACE bottoms and they have won me a few trophies over the years. Please excuse me for spelling ploughs the old english way. MJ

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Hugh MacKay

03-15-2006 03:59:50
209.226.247.157



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to MJ in the UK, 03-15-2006 02:03:10  
MJ: The big trophy winners around here in antique match plowing also use Ace bottoms. I'd be willing to bet the top ten in antique classes at the IPM will have been Ace bottoms for as long as one cares to remember. Just watch now, someone else will tell me to hold my money.



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Hugh MacKay

03-15-2006 03:58:04
209.226.247.157



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to MJ in the UK, 03-15-2006 02:03:10  
MJ: The big trophy winners around here in antique match plowing also use Ace bottoms. I'd be willing to bet the top ten in antique classes at the IPM will have been Ace bottoms for as long as one cares to remember. Just watch now, someone else will tell me to hold my money.



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FromJB2

03-14-2006 16:56:31
72.56.121.128



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
Bill, Hugh, grew up on a farm in eastern Ontario and always had IH ACE bottoms until trip beam plow with Super Chief bottoms. ACE bottom made a beautiful furrow at low speeds but at higher speeds would throw the furrow like a snow plow where as the Super Chief bottoms were made for higher speeds.

JB2



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Hugh MacKay

03-14-2006 18:32:24
216.208.58.148



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to FromJB2, 03-14-2006 16:56:31  
JB2: Actually it was a bit further east than ON. You are however very correct, the Ace would lay a beautiful furrow even as slow as 1.5 mph. You just loaded the tractor with enough bottoms to load it at 3 mph. I my opinion there is still nothing to match an ace bottom in stony soil. What we had was the ocasional stone, and they were large enough to be murder on plows. The trip hitch was fine for 2 bottoms, but once you increased the spring tension on the hitch, to pull 3-4 bottoms, you lost some of that protection.

I went from my old IH trailer plows to a new 510 semi-mount 5x16 with super chief bottoms. Pulled that a few times with 1066, but could clearly see hired help would soon make mincemeat of that plow, in those ocasional stones. Yes, it had trip beams, and they tripped but that did not eliminate breakage. I fixed those young lads, put the 5x16 plow behind the 656 and said, "Now boys that will cure the fast plowmen." Plowed for years with that setup, neighbor up the road was pulling 5x16 trailer with a Cockshutt 570 diesel.

High speed bottoms are little more than an expensive way to plow. If you fully load the tractor with bottoms at 3 mph, the cost of wear parts per acre will be 50% less than a tractor pulling less bottoms at 5mph.

The 60 hp tractor at 3mph pulling 5x16 plow also actually plows as much ground per hour as the same tractor at 4mph pulling 4x14 bottoms. If you get into better going and increase each by 1 mph, they will still plow about the same acres per hour.

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Don L C

03-15-2006 18:45:07
24.166.245.236



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2006 18:32:24  
I am reading every word.....as a kid I loved plowing up into the night ....Dad had a '48 Farmall M and at age 15 he bought me a '51 M,we both pulled 3-14",little genius plows, as I remember he called them....great memories....

Could you guys post pictures of the differnt bottoms you are talking about?

Maybe we couldfind each other at the tractor show this June in Ohio..

Don SW Ohio



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FromJB2

03-14-2006 16:49:20
72.56.121.128



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
Bill, Hugh, grew up on a farm in eastern Ontario and had ACE bottoms until trip beam plow with Super Chief bootoms.

JB2



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JR(CASE38MAN)

03-14-2006 15:03:58
64.12.116.199



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  

Here is a set of LITTLE WONDER plows...They have the ace bottoms on them...



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Hugh MacKay

03-14-2006 12:42:57
209.226.106.136



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
Bill: Ace Bottoms were sold only in Eastern Canada, maybe some in New England. In fact I'd almost bet you live east of Toronto.



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sammy the RED

03-14-2006 20:23:37
65.73.153.100



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2006 12:42:57  
Thats why I never heard of 'em !

Thanks Hugh.



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Hugh MacKay

03-15-2006 01:16:39
216.208.58.144



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to sammy the RED, 03-14-2006 20:23:37  
Sammy: I'm not exactly sure on the history of Ace bottoms, but believe the design is European.



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Bill, in Ontario

03-14-2006 14:23:18
198.103.96.11



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2006 12:42:57  
Hugh;
Hold onto your money !!
I live 90 miles southwest of Toronto!
I've just heard a lot of guys in this area talk about IHC Ace Bottom plows and wondered what they were. I grew up on a dairy farm here in the fifties - early sixties and we had two three furrow IHC trail plows we pulled with a W-6 and W-400 before everything turned green! Now that I am older (55), I've gotten more interested in the history. Thanks...Bill

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Hugh MacKay

03-14-2006 17:34:13
216.208.58.148



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 14:23:18  
Bill: I guess I'd better heed that advice, sounds as though your not that far away. I'm guessing that puts you somewhere between Woodstock and London, at least within 25 miles of a straight line between the two. I'm in Strathroy.

I'm originally from the Maritimes and up until 1962 all we ever saw were Ace bottom plows. IH, Massey and Cockshutt at least, each had their own version of Ace bottoms. I watch old plows quite closely, and notice here in SW ON, Ace bottoms are here but are probably only represent about 50% of old plows. The further east you go the higher the percentage of Ace bottom plows. I don't think they were ever marketed in the US, other than maybe New England. That is precisely why you got the responce you did from Allan and Sammy.

The other item I should draw to your attention, and I'll use the No.8 plow for example. In the US it was called Little Genius No.8, it had diagnol cross members between the plow beams, it had one piece adjusting levers, and almost 100% IH general purpose bottoms. Here in Canada the plow built at Hamilton, was called the No.8 Tractor Plow only, (no reference to Little Genius in the manuals) it had perpendicular cross members between the plow beams, the adjusting levers were hinged in middle with 3 notches allowing one to change from a Farmall to a W series tractor and almost change the levers within operators reach, on the go. Those adjusting levers on Hamilton built plows had a reduction cog, in the actual depth settings, thus allowing closer settings. The Canadian plows could also be equiped with either Ace or IH General Purpose bottoms. You guessed it, all this fine tuning was driven by the IPM match plowing.

The prependicular cross members also allowed one to change the width of cut, but usually only 2" without changing the plow bottom. The farme was adjustable from 10" to 16". Three different width bottoms were used. The smallest could be set 10", 11" or 12"; medium could be set 12" or 14" and the large one 14" or 16". Basically this design allowed a dealer to build a plow on site in his yard, to suit the customers needs.

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Bill, in Ontario

03-15-2006 10:03:53
198.103.96.11



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2006 17:34:13  
Well, I thought I new a little bit about somethin' but it looks like I don't know nuthin' about nuthin' about plows !!! It sounds like some of you guys take your plowing pretty serious !
Never knew there was so much to know about plows!! So, if I got this right, Ace bottoms could be had on a variety manufacturers' plows? So is Ace a name brand that supplied to IH and others? I have know idea of the model numbers of the plows (3x12") we had but I remember the points where triangular shapes and the mouldboards where very long and narrow with an extensive curve to them that would lay sod over as nice as you please. Is it possible they were Ace bottoms?
I have a JD #57 (3x12") that has similiar looking bottoms but the JD literature refers to them as "Scotch bottoms" ? Any comparison?
Hugh; your geography is pretty good, I live in Tillsonburg, we're practicaly neighbours!!! Thanks for the info, Bill

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Hugh MacKay

03-15-2006 13:38:43
64.228.11.121



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-15-2006 10:03:53  
Bill: I've driven here to Hogtown often enough, I knew when you said 2 hours southwest of Toronto you had to be right in there somewhere. I almost said south of straight line between Woodstock and London, then I got thinking about places like Embro and Hickson.

There are a few items about these plows yet unanswered, your being rather generous in your accessment of us. I find your comparison of the Ace bottom and your John Deere Scotch bottom rather interesting. Over the years I have been quite familiar with IH, Massey and Cockshutt plows, however have never been around John Deere plows very much. It would be very reasonable to believe Deere was in the pack for that Eastern Canadian market. I would expect Ford and Ferguson probably had it as well.

I'd like to explore that comparison between Ace and Deere Scotch bottoms a bit more. As MJ said, he and I had a rather good discussion about the history of these plows some months back. At that time I was giving the Europeans credit for Ace bottoms, while MJ pointed out to me, it was IH who manufactured these plows at Hamilton and introduced it to them in England. That in itself is rather unusual, when a 5th generation Canadian Scot and an Englishman calling Great Britain home try to give each other credit for the same idea or invention. Virtually unheard of in farming circles anyhow. That long, narrow curve is what made these plows so great in stony ground. They would slide by a stone very easily without catching. That is definately something any good Scotsman learned to tolerate.

We definately don't know it all Bill, I for one would like to know more about the history and background of these plow bottoms. I don't think it was a case of IH, Massey and Cockshutt buying these bottoms from an outside supplier called Ace. My neighbor down the road tells me his Massey and my IH, Ace moldboards will not interchange. It would then be reasonable to believe Ace held the patent and collected royalties from several foundries. I'm willing to bet there are oldtimers that have followed the IPM through the years, who probably know this bit of history.

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Allan In NE

03-14-2006 11:00:05
148.78.243.26



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
I dunno, Bill,

I don't know much about trailing plows, but from the old tumble plows forward, they have all been painted with red frames, blue moldboards, blue coulter shanks and cream colored wheels.

Haven't ever heard of an Ace bottom but on an Ace plow. Different breed entirely.

Allan



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Hugh MacKay

03-14-2006 19:21:59
209.226.247.121



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Allan In NE, 03-14-2006 11:00:05  
Allan: I'm getting worried about you and the effect this ever ruturuing Nebraska winter is having on you. We did discuss these Canadian plows and Ace bottoms about 3 months ago. I have heard of an Ace plow as well, but that is not the same as an Ace bottom on a Cockshutt, Massey or IH plow.

Now I will admit this winter is starting get under my skin as well. We had one of those damn northwest winds blowing in here today, enough to dampen any man's spirits. Yes that damn wind was coming right out of northern MI, WI and MN. Now, I'm not going to be harsh on those guys as they picked it up from the Canadian prairies. But what a nice day it was here yesterday, I went out and bough a new set of tires and rims for one of my tractors. Today was a fireside day, and you guessed it the tires and rims are just inside the shop door, and not on the tractor as was yesterday's plan for today.

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Allan In NE

03-15-2006 04:18:36
148.78.243.26



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2006 19:21:59  
Yep,

The return of winter sure puts a downer on me that's for sure, but it is a good news, bad news situation.

The good news is that moisture, in any form, is nothing less than money falling from the sky 'round these parts.

Bad news is that when the weather does break, it is then a mad scramble to get everything done on time.

Allan



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sammy the RED

03-14-2006 10:37:31
65.73.153.60



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 Re: IHC plows in reply to Bill, in Ontario, 03-14-2006 09:39:20  
Never heard of an Ace Bottom on a IHC plow.

Maybe called something differant in some parts of the country ?



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