Deutz-Allis 1816H. No forward power.

J_Miller

Member
Just purchased this lawn tractor yesterday. 48 inchdeck and 36 inch blower. Got it home, started it, let the hydro warm up and blew snow for two hours. Stopped to go get extra gas. Parked it in my heated garage 52 degrees or so. Came back an hour later and went to blow more snow. It drove fine around the block to my back yard, then when I put it under load to blow the snow it would die sometimes, sometimes it would just groan to a stop. Then it died in the middle of North Dakota Winter. I new it wouldn't start again but I went ahead and ran the battery dead trying. Finally I got my pickup into it. Got it jump started and got it back into my garage. I changed the fluid and filter. The previous owner said he ran Dextron in it. Dextron is very red, it was dark brown so I thought maybe it would help to change it. So I put a new filter on and filled it with mobil 424. I also tightened all of the belts which were fairly lose. Finally got it all back together and started and took it out side to see if it had any power. It now has decent power in reverse but very little in forward, it is a single speed with forward reverse and neutral.

I have no idea what to do. This us my first lawn tractor and my first hydrostatic anything.

Any help or advise would be great. I personally have a feeling that something in the transaxle is clogged or stuck, and that the lack of fluid from that is causing the groan and lack of power.
 
Neither he nor I have a repair manual. He said he ran Dextron based on viscosity for our weather here in North Dakota.
 

In addition I decided to use the Mobil 424 mostly because I had it hanging out in the shop. Also, after a little bit of go ogling I found that the viscosity and things were pretty inline with what everyone else was talking about using. Anything from SAE 30 to 20w-50. 424 pour Temps, viscosity and other characteristics seemed to fall right in the middle.
 
If the problem was the oil, then the tractor would not run fine in reverse. It would be problematic in forward and reverse.
 
With enough knowledge to be dangerous. I have worked on several hydros and helped work on several with a couple of friends. Now that is the extent of my experience. All of that being said.....When you drive this machine and push the go pedal, does it winnnne a bit, or does it go WINNNNNNNE as you go? That is the sound of the oil cavitation. You can have a plugged up filter or you need a new pump. BOTH are inside on most all of these units. The sound will be like a good and quiet steering pump and when one is ready to leave you on the side of the road somewhere. There is an ID tag on the unit and there are quite a few places that sell the parts you need. If you have the skill it can cost around $200.oo or a little less to rebuild the rear but is like 2 or 3 times that for a new one. You can also pick up a used one on Fleabay for not tooo bad a price. Just go on utube and type in [lawn tractor rear rebuild.] If you have a bunch of tools and skill and the courage then go for it. First one is the hardest, after that you go that wasn't so bad. I have one of my own that is getting noisy so might be a good time to order some parts. We will see what others have to say. good luck.
 

Thanks a ton. It does sound similar to a power steering pump about to die or very low on fluid. I talk to a guy that repairs tractors today.Thankfully I live in North Dakota and tractor mechanics are abundant. He said he has worked on several of these Eaton 851's in the past and it's sounds to him there is a clogged port/screen. I'm not sure when I'll get this repaired sense it's the busy season for repair work. I may take a stable at it myself. I'm mechanically inclined just no experience on hydrostatic equipment. I'll definitely keep the post updated as I journey through this.
 
Working on hydrostatic transmissions often calls for specialized tools and knowledge. Cleanliness is paramount when dismantling the unit, working on the unit and then assembling the unit. Lint from a towel or rag is often all it
takes to create a new problem after re-assembly. This is not the sort of work for people with no background in hydraulics. By all means, remove the trans-axle yourself but then, put it into the hands of an experienced
hydraulics mechanic.
 
I'm surprised at the replies you got... AFAIK, your little tractor uses a common Sundstrand hydro, and if it is the style I suspect it is, there's a relief valve for forwards and one for reverse.

Sounds like the one for forward has a problem.

If that is the case, they are easy to replace without any disassembly of the hydrostatic transmission or any special skills that are apparently only found at $$$ facilities.

If you could post a photo of the hydrostatic transmission it would help a lot.

I am in ND, as well, and would be happy to help you in any way I can.
 
Actually..... the transmission is a model 850 from Eaton. The tractor was made by Simplicity and branded as a Deutz-Allis.
 

Correct. There are I believe even some AG CO tractors that are the same. Not certain about that though. Based on all of the images I've seen of the 850 vs 851. I'm pretty set that mine has the 851. Not saying that it left the factory with one just saying that with my limited knowledge on such, my opinion is that the transaxle currently in my 25ish year old rig is the 851. I'm no "tractor expert" so maybe I'm wrong.
 

BOB!!! I've been waiting for someone to say something like that. I'm in the Harvey area. Called Roosters Repair. Bruce there has been working on farm equipment since before I was ever thought of. He mentioned a screen being plugged. I didn't see a screen in the diagrams I've seen, I'm not going to say he was wrong though.

It's an 851 Eaton. Sounds like a powersteering pump is about to ascend into power steering pump heaven. And, 15 below is a little to chill for me to tell if it's over heating or getting hot enough. My IR Thermometer gives me all kids of readings. Not sure any are legit.
 

Bob. I'm in the Harvey area. A repair guy told me it may be a partial clog somewhere. I wish I new better how to flush the sysytem. I've changed filter and fluid and it's pretty funky already (only about an hour or two).

You should come over. I could drink coffee while you fix my tractor. No, really though, what part of ND are you from?
 
Found a company today with new in the box Eaton 851's. Tonight I'll start taking mine out of the tractor. Looks pretty simple but many it's a greasy mess.
 
I'd be very interested in doing a post-mortem on your old hydro if you do replace it, maybe give you a few bucks as a "core", if you'd be interested.

Did you ever email me, if so I didn't get it, I'm about 90 miles NE of you.
 

Bob, no I never did shoot you an email. I have the same thoughts on looking inside once it's replaced. As soon as I have the new tyranny in my hands I'll tell you how much I paid for it and where I got it. Considering "Jim's repair Jim's tractor" told me he knows nothing about Eaton transmissions but if it were a sunstrand he would rebuild it for $1100. I think I got a pretty smoking deal on the one that I should have in a week or so.I'm definitely curious what is wrong with my "old" transaxle. I would like to repair it if possible and have a spare, if not I will have a parts donor.
 
So it's been a few days since I posted on here last. I ordered the Eaton 851 from Motion Industries in Canada.

I'm officially and completely defeated. I spent 10 hours today putting this thing in. I had to make mounts for it. Had to bore a pulley that I got from tsc, even had to cut and reweld the bracket/lever for the brake. Finally though it's in.

One small problem though. It's locked up tight. Ran for maybe 5 or 10 minutes and just stopped. I have no idea why or what I did wrong. I'm completely lost. I'm $1,000 into this thing and so far it's just taking up a good chunk of my garage. I'm not exactly made of money either. I have no idea where to go from here.
 
The fact that you were not able to unbolt the original hydro from the tractor and then install the new hydro with no modifications tells me that you bought the wrong hydro. Eaton 851 is the identity of a certain MODEL of hydro made by Eaton but it is not a one size fits all situation. Engines and hydro's have SPEC numbers and those spec numbers indicate the changes made by Eaton to the 851 Hydro to work with the tractor the manufacturer designed.

Did you check the hydro to make sure that it had oil and that the oil level was where it should be?

The pulley that you bored out, I assume that it powers the input shaft of the hydro. If so, why did you not use the pulley from the old hydro? How is the new pulley secured to the input shaft? Is it cross-pinned? Was there some sort of key and key way? Perhaps the new pulley is just spinning on the input shaft instead of making it rotate? Is the drive belt tight? How do you know that the new hydro is designed to be rotated in the same direction as the original hydro?

You say that it ran for 5 to 10 minutes and then locked up. If the hydro locked up, then that should prevent you from starting the engine. If the engine starts, then clearly explain what is locked up.
 
(quoted from post at 14:12:10 01/31/17) The fact that you were not able to unbolt the original hydro from the tractor and then install the new hydro with no modifications tells me that you bought the wrong hydro. Eaton 851 is the identity of a certain MODEL of hydro made by Eaton but it is not a one size fits all situation. Engines and hydro's have SPEC numbers and those spec numbers indicate the changes made by Eaton to the 851 Hydro to work with the tractor the manufacturer designed.

Did you check the hydro to make sure that it had oil and that the oil level was where it should be?

The pulley that you bored out, I assume that it powers the input shaft of the hydro. If so, why did you not use the pulley from the old hydro? How is the new pulley secured to the input shaft? Is it cross-pinned? Was there some sort of key and key way? Perhaps the new pulley is just spinning on the input shaft instead of making it rotate? Is the drive belt tight? How do you know that the new hydro is designed to be rotated in the same direction as the original hydro?

You say that it ran for 5 to 10 minutes and then locked up. If the hydro locked up, then that should prevent you from starting the engine. If the engine starts, then clearly explain what is locked up.

@ Tom Arnold

According to Eaton, each of the modifications I made were necessitated given that the original 850 series no longer exist. The pulley that was bored was bored by a machine shop from 3/4 to 17mm bore. You are correct that the pulley is for the input shaft on the transaxle. The transaxle came prefilled from Eaton. I filled the reservoir with ISO 46 as per Eaton's recommendation. The pulley is secured to the shaft by two bolts and a key. The shaft (or transaxle) is locked up and the motor does run. The belt spins on the pulley when engaged, the belt is tight but it can only be so tight. I now have the transaxle back out if the tractor and I assure you that it is locked up even though the engine ran. You are also correct that the 851 in "Eaton 851" is a model. To be more specific it's an Eaton 851-134. It is the most direct replacement for the unit that was originally in the tractor. At least that's what the not so helpful people at Eaton say. The "spec" numbers were relatively easy to obtain with a little bit of time spent online. If you look around in the search results for Eaton 851 and Deutz Allis 1816 Sigma there is a plethora of information. Some is a little hard to decipher and unfortunately inexperience with small engines and the like seem to be another problem in my experience. That's why I have turned here. In hopes of someone with more experience with these pieces of equipment offering some advice.
 
44986.jpg


I tried to post a photo of the pdf with the information pertaining to the above mentioned modifications. Unfortunately it appears that it did not upload. Fortunately I can post a link for your viewing pleasure.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/%40pub/%40eaton/%40hyd/documents/content/pll_1626.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjFm5He5-3RAhUg24MKHQhsAMoQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNHiAf1CB-ITUt0FoMmqXm-TAgC7LA&sig2=2Uy8daM130lQey_68p2xcA
 
Based upon the information in your reply, it would appear that YOU have done nothing wrong and that the problem is now a warranty issue because it is internal,not external. If you remove the drive belt and are unable to rotate the trans-axle pulley by hand, then my best guess is that the hydrostatic pump has failed because that is what the pulley/shaft spins when the engine is running. I can only suggest that you telephone the dealer that sold you the trans-axle and speak with their technical support people. All them to instruct you to make certain tests until they can do no more. At that point, they should e-mail you with an authorization to ship the unit back to them for replacement. I would not advise you to open this trans-axle up because doing so would void the warranty instantly. Good luck.
 

Unfortunately I purchased with no warranty. At the price I paid I couldn't really ask for one. No idea where the guy got these from but they are sealed and in Eaton boxes. At least the one I received was. Eaton also will not warranty it because an authorized dealer didn't install it. Even though the only authorized dealers in my state are "Fastenal" stores. I'm fairly certain that Fastenal does not install the product on sale it, and at a steep price. I could by eight of these for the price of one from fastenal. Since all of this seems to be above my pay grade I plan to take it to my local tractor shop and have it tore down to find what is "broken". We should then be able to deduce what caused the failure. Unfortunately since I did not by this from an Eaton distributor for $1600 I'm left to my own solutions and Eaton is being less than helpful.

I was more or less hoping someone would say, "oh yeah, your such and such is all out of adjustment" or something along those lines. My own theory is that maybe I bent the rod that engages/disengages the clutch/brake and that is possibly leaving the clutch/brake somewhat engaged and burning up something internally. Then again, I just paint cars for a living. Never claimed to be a mechanic.
 
Sorry to hear that.

Just so you know, here is how your hydro works. The engine in your tractor spins that V belt which spins the pulley and input shaft on the hydro. That input shaft normally enters the hydrostatic oil pump and spins a barrel that somewhat resembles the ammunition cylinder on a six-shooter. Each hole in that barrel has a piston inside that is free to move in and out of each of the chambers. On one end of the barrel is a donut known as a swash plate that pivots on a stub shaft on the top and bottom of it. One stub shaft protrudes through the pump housing. By way of a hand or foot control, that stub shaft can be rotated backward or forward. This movement alters the position of the pistons inside the chambers, causing them to pump oil in one direction or the other. That oil is then fed directly to the hydraulic drive motor that makes the differential rotate and spin the back wheels. All components are inside the trans-axle unit you purchased.

If the drive pulley will not rotate forward or backward, can you move the Fwrd/Reverse control back and forth? Does the Eaton site have a manual for this unit with exploded diagrams along with parts numbers and parts identification? I suppose that it might be possible to hydraulically lock up one of these units, depending on how it is constructed. Will Eaton give you access to their technical support people? I am not aware of any "clutch/brake" on a hydro.
 
(quoted from post at 20:13:12 01/31/17) Sorry to hear that.

Just so you know, here is how your hydro works. The engine in your tractor spins that V belt which spins the pulley and input shaft on the hydro. That input shaft normally enters the hydrostatic oil pump and spins a barrel that somewhat resembles the ammunition cylinder on a six-shooter. Each hole in that barrel has a piston inside that is free to move in and out of each of the chambers. On one end of the barrel is a donut known as a swash plate that pivots on a stub shaft on the top and bottom of it. One stub shaft protrudes through the pump housing. By way of a hand or foot control, that stub shaft can be rotated backward or forward. This movement alters the position of the pistons inside the chambers, causing them to pump oil in one direction or the other. That oil is then fed directly to the hydraulic drive motor that makes the differential rotate and spin the back wheels. All components are inside the trans-axle unit you purchased.

If the drive pulley will not rotate forward or backward, can you move the Fwrd/Reverse control back and forth? Does the Eaton site have a manual for this unit with exploded diagrams along with parts numbers and parts identification? I suppose that it might be possible to hydraulically lock up one of these units, depending on how it is constructed. Will Eaton give you access to their technical support people? I am not aware of any "clutch/brake" on a hydro.
44998.jpg
 
Looks like it is composed of three pump ball rotors and some planetary gears. Its a little more complex than any hydraulic systems I've ever dealt with on the farm. Then again I've never had a hydrostatic transaxle apart before either. I'm guessing it's something to do with the main ball piston (pump) and not the two ball pistons that control the axles. Unless there has been some kind of air lock or something causing theme all to not rotate. I did try bleeding pressure out of the transaxle. No results there.
 
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Parts list for the above exploded diagram. Maybe this will help us to communicate part nomenclature a little easier or maybe we could reference the number on the drawing as well.
 
All of these images are parts of .pdf files I have downloaded. I'm unable to share the file. However a Google search for Eaton 851 will turn up these files if anyone is interested in viewing them in full.
 

Tom,

The control shaft (14) does function. Full range as far as I can tail.

The main input shaft, not specifically labelled but same orientation as (2) in the drawing, does not rotate. Either direction.

Also, neither axle will rotate.

I think once we get inside the case numbers 11 and 12 are going to be the issue. It seems to me that the pair being seized or stuck together would give the results I'm getting.

If that is the case then I need to figure out what caused that. Possibly unbalanced pulley.
 
OK... I have located a PDF for the 851 trans-axle that shows the exploded diagram in your reply. That is Page 2. Please scroll down to Page 6 in that manual. Do you notice the side view of the trans-axle on the lower part of that page? It points out where the product information is stamped into the case. As I remarked earlier, I wondered if the replacement trans-axle was of the same rotation as the original. If the unit sent to you is Clockwise instead of being Counter Clockwise, then PERHAPS this might account for the unit locking up. I think it is very important to determine that first.

If the rotation is incorrect, then there is little point in proceeding further because even if you repair that trans-axle, it will destroy itself just as soon as you try to use it.
 

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