Differant engine????

gmccool

Well-known Member
I'm going to update my lawn mower this spring with a new one. I don't know what kind yet as I am still looking. But while looking I am finding some have Kohler, some Kawasaki, some Briggs engines. Give me the pros & cons. Maintenance longevity Ect. Thanks Gerald
 
where you located come run an unit you decide, have had any major issues with any brand. you will always here the bad anyway. let me know i have from 200 to 2000 off any one still in show room
 
I just scrapped a Kohler COURAGE single 20 hp after 300 hrs due to vibration ripping it apart, literally....including a cracked crankcase.

Replaced it with a BS twin and day and night.

I have 2 V twin BS, a Honda twin 18V, and a 15, 16, and 17.5 Kohler Command single, plus half a dozen Honda (1) or BS smaller engines. All but the new BS I bought have been with me since 2005 or before and zero problems. Keep the oil clean with fresh fuel and stabilizer.

BS is not a bad engine per se. They build them to the customer's spec. If you want an el cheapo with no cast iron cylinder liner they will build that. If you want all the whistles and bells they build that too....just "design to cost". Word from them is they build more air cooled engines than anybody in the world.

Mark
 
I had a John Deere 318 and put a Honda 630GX in it. Happy with it. The engine is made in China, But the carburetor and ignition is made in Japan.
When I ordered it, I thought it was all made in Japan. At first I was a little unhappy about this. But, it has turned out to be an excellent transplant.
I had an old Toro zero turn that had an Onan in it. Did not want to spend the money for a new engine. Found a Kohler Magnum 20. It has worked out to be a good engine. Mow an acre and a half the last four years with no problems.
 
If you have a suburban lawn where it will run 45 minutes at a shot I don't suppose it really matters. If you are going to have it running for hours at a time I wouldn't go with anything from a box store that has a Kohler or Briggs. Those my two favorite brands, don't get me wrong, but the cheap versions don't last. Any engine made for the masses by them is a cheap version.

The wife wanted a cub cadet. I caved and bought one knowing that the Kohler Courage is a 400 hour engine (before it throws the harmonic balanced through the block) and we put about six hours a week on a mower. I just told her that once it gets to 300 hours we are going to stop using it so I can keep it to pull the yard sprayer. I have commercial zero turns with Kohler and Briggs engines on them, she is just afraid of them. I'm not sure the cub will last to 300 hours as it has a pretty good oil leak and one of the deck spindles is suspect. I'm meticulous about maintenance, they just aren't built for people who really use them. Luckily she only mows when I am too busy in the field, so it will last a few more years. They were for folks who spend more time turning around than mowing and should be going to a gym or weight watchers.

I've always heard good things about Kawasaki engines but have never had one. If an engine goes around here I beat the streets until I find a NOS Briggs or Kohler flat head for it. I have a couple of Briggs over head cam engines and I'm not sold on them. They haven't given me too much trouble, but they don't have adjustable carbs, tend to run lean, and are hard to start when they are hot.

That's my opinion. You get what you paid for.
 
Gerald,
Lawn cutting machines are divided into different types.

There are RER's or Rear Engine Riders

There are LT's or Lawn Tractors

There are GT's or Garden Tractors

There are ZTR's or Zero Turning Radius

True GT's are up in the $6000.00 plus range and they use engines that are of industrial quality from Briggs and Stratton, Kohler, Honda, Kawasaki and Generac. Engines such as the B&S Vanguard series or the Kohler Pro Command Series are expected to last at least 2000 hours of running time without needing to be rebuilt. But that is dependant upon them being serviced properly at the correct intervals.

In contrast to those engines, you have the low cost models that Briggs puts out under several different names. Kohler offers the Courage series and it has had its share of issues in recent years. You will not get a Top Tier engine in a ZTR, RER or LT in the under 3 grand price range. Kia is not going to put a Cummins diesel in their economy car either.

The lifespan of the bottom Tier engines is around 1000 hours, again depending upon maintenance. Realistically, most home owners only put 50 hours of use per year on their tractors. Do the math. That means you SHOULD get 20 years out of a bottom tier engine. There are no long-term guarantees no matter which brand you buy.

Parts prices for Kawasaki and Honda engines have a reputation for being high compared with Kohler and Briggs. I do not envy you because there is so much flim-flammery going on out there with these engines, it is very hard to know what you are getting. You cannot rely upon HP ratings because most of them are BS. Some engines do not even show the alleged HP.

Instead, they show torque ratings or just internal displacement. This industry needs to clean up its act or the government will step in and put rules in place that they won't like. John Deere doesn't even tell you who makes the engine for the D-100, D-105, D-100 or D-125. Why not? What's the big secret?

I suggest that you go to the websites of the various engine manufacturers and take notes on which Series of engines they sell. But you can expect to run across series names that do not appear on the website.

Everyone wants to convince you that their tractor is the best and yet they use deceptive practices to try and pull the wool over your eyes.

Good luck with your search. Self-education is your best tool.
 
I have worked in this industry full time for the last 6 years.
I agree with everything Tom says except that with the exception of the Vanguard series, I am seeing many of the other Briggs engines die at about 600 hours.
 
TRK Your reply has me wondering about what you mean.

The Vanguard engines have a very solid reputation for providing excellent service for at least 2000 hours. Aside from the Vanguard Series, Briggs makes several other lines such as Gold, Gold Plus, Platinum, Intek, ELS, Professional, Endurance etc etc. The list goes on. It seems as though Briggs will slap any name on an engine that the company making the grass cutter wants.

How much difference there really is between these various engine series is hard to determine.

But to be fair...... many engines die an early death because the end user never changes the oil. These are all splash-lubed engines that rely upon timely oil changes to purge the crankcase of contaminants that destroy bearing surfaces.

It would be helpful if you were to flesh out your response and identify any engine series that you have seen fail far too often. I am also curious as to how you determined the number of hours on those engines since most of the low end riders do not come with an hour meter.
 
If you get confused on the torque posting rather than HP, you can easily calculate HP: it equals [torque (in ft-lbs) x rpm (3600 for Briggs usually)]/5252.

So I have this little DR leaf vac with a Briggs 8.50 ft-lb engine.

(8.5x3600)/5252 = 5.8 HP. So did I get slighted on a 6 or a deal with a big 5. Dunno and dusnt matter atoll.

Mark
 
I lied!!!!!!!!!!!

Just came from the BS www this afternoon, my original comment was with coffee this am and they say their torque is spec'd at 2600 rpm, not WOT of 3600. Well torque curves usually fall off beyond the peak and the only reason HP continues to increase is due to increased rpm.

So, on the 8.50 torque rating and estimated 5.8 (net) hp on my lawn vac., probably it's only a palsy 5 hp. Oh well. The 8.5 looks better for marketing purposes just like the new liars and their electric motor ratings these days where the hp number is taken at locked rotor at max current the instant before the voltage starts to fall.....HP is v x a plus a power factor correction and 746 watts = 1 hp on that.

Sorry for the disinfo.

Mark
 
It's too bad that small engine manufacturers don't just rate their engines with their real-life power capability like they used to. From what I understand companies like Briggs got slapped with class-action lawsuits a few years ago when the advertised power started exceeding the truth. Rather than get egg of their faces by down-rating their engines to truthful levels they abandoned the power rating and spun a story about how torque is "the most direct way to determine an engine's ability to get the job done" (quoting the B&S website). They are apparently forgetting the fact that the torque rating actually doesn't tell you much about how much work the engine can do.
 
Read my second sentance again. I didn't disagree with you except that I am not seeing intek and single cylinder Briggs engines go 1000 hours. They usually die at about 600 hours.
 
Reading the fine print a while back on one of the small engine mfgrs. published numbers a disclaimer is listed that the published hp is without anything connected to the engine including a muffler. I guess this is not all bad as for any given installation you could have all kinds of variables connected to the engine that would limit it's actual available power.

Mark
 
Not to be contradictory but we were all used to engines being rated by hp but it really is a lot of hogwash. H.P. =torque x rpm÷5252. Like any equation you can make the end result whatever you want by changing anybody the variables. That being said torque by definition is the twisting force an engine generates. H.P. is a measure of work being done which really isn't possible to measure any work at a crankshaft if its not hooked to somthing. That being said the o rigional way of measuring H.P. was to hook a horse to a block and tackle lift 10,000 three feet in the air and hold it for ten seconds. Long and short of it is that it was easier to go with a hp rating because it was what everyone was used to. Torquecus more accurate but a pain.
 
There are a lot of misconceptions regarding engine torque and power. Power (be it expressed in horsepower, kilowatts, or whatever) is simply the rate at which torque (ft-lb, N-m, etc) is delivered. This combination of torque and speed is what determines an engine's capacity to do work. Don't get hung up over the archaic way that horsepower was originally defined, just think of it as a unit of measure that combines force, distance, and time.

The torque rating at the crankshaft by itself is largely irrelevant because torque can be easily increased or decreased through gearing. If you need more torque at the wheels to climb a steep hill or pull a big load just downshift; any engine no mater how small can generate large amounts of twist if geared low enough. However, to pull the load at a given speed requires a set amount of power, not torque, from the engine. This is why engines are rated by the power level with the torque level listed just as supplemental information.
 
S.A.E. engine HP testing standard is no muffler or accesseries and is the US norm. German DIN is at output shaft as used in equipment with muffler, air cleaner on and 10% less than US advertised is common. Some European market and equipment sold engines will have the German rating on their tags since it is required in that market- sort of like some things sold in US that have the California market info on them even outside that market. A few equipment makers will have a HP rating at 'wheel', drawbar or PTO as normally equipped- sort of like the old Nebraska test ratings. US cars advertised ratings had a split in mid/late 1970s- the advertised SAE engine rating by law became a 'wheel' rating- the Chevy 200hp engine in early year became a 165hp engine a 20% drop in advertised power rating was common. The small engines from maker get away with the SAE yet because they are not yet in equipment-- the equipment maker might have a 'as used in' rating later. RN
 
(quoted from post at 14:08:00 12/06/14) Gerald,
Lawn cutting machines are divided into different types.

There are RER's or Rear Engine Riders

There are LT's or Lawn Tractors

There are GT's or Garden Tractors

There are ZTR's or Zero Turning Radius

True GT's are up in the $6000.00 plus range and they use engines that are of industrial quality from Briggs and Stratton, Kohler, Honda, Kawasaki and Generac. Engines such as the B&S Vanguard series or the Kohler Pro Command Series are expected to last at least 2000 hours of running time without needing to be rebuilt. But that is dependant upon them being serviced properly at the correct intervals.

In contrast to those engines, you have the low cost models that Briggs puts out under several different names. Kohler offers the Courage series and it has had its share of issues in recent years. You will not get a Top Tier engine in a ZTR, RER or LT in the under 3 grand price range. Kia is not going to put a Cummins diesel in their economy car either.

The lifespan of the bottom Tier engines is around 1000 hours, again depending upon maintenance. Realistically, most home owners only put 50 hours of use per year on their tractors. Do the math. That means you SHOULD get 20 years out of a bottom tier engine. There are no long-term guarantees no matter which brand you buy.

Parts prices for Kawasaki and Honda engines have a reputation for being high compared with Kohler and Briggs. I do not envy you because there is so much flim-flammery going on out there with these engines, it is very hard to know what you are getting. You cannot rely upon HP ratings because most of them are BS. Some engines do not even show the alleged HP.

Instead, they show torque ratings or just internal displacement. This industry needs to clean up its act or the government will step in and put rules in place that they won't like. John Deere doesn't even tell you who makes the engine for the D-100, D-105, D-100 or D-125. Why not? What's the big secret?

I suggest that you go to the websites of the various engine manufacturers and take notes on which Series of engines they sell. But you can expect to run across series names that do not appear on the website.

Everyone wants to convince you that their tractor is the best and yet they use deceptive practices to try and pull the wool over your eyes.

Good luck with your search. Self-education is your best tool.


Good post Tom. Add to the mix the off brand engines (think Zinamar or whatever I've got in the CC) and the mess gets even messier! I really miss the days when you could walk into any dealer and buy a quality item that would last 10 years or more given decent care.
 
I believe you mean Linamar.

Linamar is an Ontario, Canada based engine manufacturer that
took over the tooling and dies for the Onan line. They produced
the Linamar LX Series along with the Onan Performer Series.
Other than the labelling, the engines were identical.

But the L-head Onan/Linamar engines could not meet EPA regs
and therefore could not be used by OPE manufacturers any
longer. For awhile, replacement engines along with short-blocks
were available but the demand for them was low.
 
+1. Torque x rpm is a product so either can be up or down as the application dictates. But the simple calculation for HP is that divided by 5252 with torque expressed in ft-lbs. No work done till you "roll" the torque.

Mark
 

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