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Garden Tractors Discussion Forum

Re: best cub to buy & why

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cowboy357

11-10-2013 06:02:33
108.7.39.101



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OK I took Tom"s advise and started looking at the Case / Ingersoll tractors, very impressive. I have found two locally.
One is a 222 said to be in mint condition about 600 hours asking $1000.
The other is a 3014 sr.# 14190860 also said to be in very good condition also about 600 hours asking $1350.
Both look very good in the photos, both have 48" mowers. I plan to look at these this week, any comments or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks

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Butch(OH)

11-12-2013 05:35:16
66.192.33.38



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-10-2013 06:02:33  
We are fairly recent Ingersol owners but those prices appear to be on the high side at a glance, of course depending on options and what comes with. We purchased a pretty nice low houred 4018 for $500 at auction, no options and just a 48" deck. If you check Tractorhouse web site under both Ingersol and Case you will usually find quite a few for sale. In my opinion you short yourself if you give up on other lines. Case/ Ingersol is not the only choice in quality garden tractors, a good choice, but far from the only one.
Anyway good luck with the search.
This post was edited by Butch(OH) at 05:53:35 11/12/13.

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Tom Arnold

11-12-2013 06:07:02
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Butch(OH), 11-12-2013 05:35:16  
Butch, As I stated previously, prices for these tractors vary widely across the continent. You are fortunate to live in a state where the prices are quite low. Those prices do not apply to Rhode Island or Maine.

The price for anything is set by how much a buyer will pay the seller on any given day. Seller's can ask whatever they want but in the end, they have to settle for what the buyer is willing to part with.

i don't think that the 446 is all that overpriced once you subtract out the commonly paid prices for all the options it has. The second important issue is whether or not the stated "hours" are correct. I would much rather pay another $500.00 for a low hour Onan powered tractor any day since the cost of doing a thorough rebuild is at least $1500.00.

A well-cared for Onan should last at least 2000 hours and if one pulls the engine at that point, it is possible to polish the crank throws, cross-hatch the bores, install new rings and lap the valves in to give new life to the engine. I call that preventative maintenance. Better that than waiting for something serious to go wrong.

Really good tractors that are close by are often the better bargain because you can easily spend $600.00 to have one shipped from the mid-west to the east coast. Even if you go and pick it up yourself, you still have to buy gas and pay for the wear and tear on your vehicle.

A $500.00 tractor in Ohio that costs $600.00 so ship is still an unknown quantity compared to a $1200.00 tractor that is local and can be inspected in person and tested.

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Butch(OH)

11-12-2013 06:52:10
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-12-2013 06:07:02  
Tom, I admit to not reading this thread in its entirety. I replied to his asking about models 222 and 3014. 446 apparently mentioned elsewhere is another animal. Sorry for the confusion. Our 4018 was a bargain (or so far appears to be) and possibly an outlier but factoring in bare tractor vs highly optioned is ??? as you said. For my purpose the 3 point carries exactly 0 value, others a lot.

Agreed that he should not even consider driving a long ways to purchase a common item like this, prices and location wer eprovided for educational purposes.

My best deals have always been units purchased from original owners who obviously took care of them, not fixer uppers, not dealer trade ins. Our 1650 CC came from an elderly original owner that recorded every oil change, every filter, every part purchased was written inside the front cover on the owners manual along with the date, time and cost of the annual trip to the dealer for inspection.It was covered up with a blanket in the garage. Rare? Yes but the deals are around it isnt the first time.

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Tom Arnold

11-12-2013 08:17:24
174.95.8.51



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Butch(OH), 11-12-2013 06:52:10  
I agree with you entirely. Value is in the eye of the buyer. What good is a 3 point hitch if you will never make use of it? One of the nice things about the Case tractors is that hitches were optional and more often than not, will transfer to another model of another year.

Interchangeability of attachments is higher than any other brand of GT.

Hey..... we all wish we could find one-owner tractors like that Cub. I'm still waiting to find one. LOL

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cowboy357

11-15-2013 04:53:01
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-12-2013 08:17:24  
Well the search goes on. I looked at a 3012,small rear tires mower deck had been patched about 1200 hours on it asking $1000 dead battery so I couldn't hear it run. Dealer said come back tomorrow we'll charge the battery. I wasn't impressed!

I found a 444 very little info at this point other than not running no spark, not running $1000 firm. I did contact him and should have photos serial number and hours soon. So my question is how complicated is the electrical system in this machine? Do they have electronic ignition or do they have points & condensers? I believe if the engine were standing alone the lack of spark could be caused be only a few things, bad coil/coil wire, bad spark plug,bad electronic module or points & condenser. is there anything in the machine that could cause the lack of spark and did I miss anything.
Also what do you think of this machine and the deal on it? I'll send photos & info when I get it.

Thanks

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Maineman

11-15-2013 18:00:46
198.228.201.147



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-15-2013 04:53:01  
Craig's list had a 446 in Dracut and a 442 in Biddeford I think both were $1200 with attachments.
I think I'd prefer the 442 with a single cylinder Kohler over the twin Onan. But, the 446 had a tiller.

Joe



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cowboy357

11-15-2013 19:33:26
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Maineman, 11-15-2013 18:00:46  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Found the one in Biddiford, couldn't find the one in Dracut, could you post the link?

Thanks



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Maineman

11-16-2013 04:58:28
198.228.201.174



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-15-2013 19:33:26  
[quote="cowboy357"](quoted from post at 20:33:26 11/15/13)
Maineman said: (quoted from post at 19:00:46 11/15/13)
Craig's list had a 446 in Dracut and a 442 in Biddeford I think both were $1200 with attachments.
I think I'd prefer the 442 with a single cylinder Kohler over the twin Onan. But, the 446 had a tiller.

Joe


Found the one in Biddiford, couldn't find the one in Dracut, could you post the link?

Thanks[/

Its listed in the New Hampshire Craigslist.
Have 1986 tractor with augar. Runs good mower deck needs work . This thing is powerful. Could use new seat Email me. Mark

Location: dracut

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

Posting ID: 4188140151 Posted: 2013-11-12, 6:53PM EST email to a friend

Try; 4188140151

If that dosn't work, search for "Case 446 tractor" under farm and garden.

Sorry, I'm not good at posting links!

Joe
This post was edited by Maineman at 05:20:22 11/16/13 2 times.

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OTP

01-22-2014 05:41:40
86.51.147.113



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Maineman, 11-16-2013 04:58:28  
Was there a sickle bar made to fit the 442?

Thanks



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Tom Arnold

11-16-2013 05:33:38
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Maineman, 11-16-2013 04:58:28  
At $1200.00 asking, this one could be the bargain you have been waiting for.

The rear PTO kits bring $200 on e-Bay

The 3 pt hitches bring $400 or more

The F-26 Sleeve Hitch Adapter bring $150

The rototiller will bring $400 on its own.

So, not including the tractor and deck, there is $1150 in optional equipment.

No matter what condition the 1985 446 and deck are in, they are certainly worth the additional $50.00.

If this one is still around, you should check it out......FAST.

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cowboy357

11-17-2013 19:14:00
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-16-2013 05:33:38  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I have more info on the 444 that has no spark, it ran last month, sat and the battery went dead, battery was charged but machine would not start, had no spark. nothing else done. The machine has a three point hitch a front snow blade has hydraulics front and rear, machine was repainted mower deck has not been on it in last 5 years, that's how long this owner has had it. He only used it a few times a year to pull a lawn sweeper, was given to him in lieu of of payment for work done.

Anyone know what thew electrical system on this motor is like if it had to be replaced? The serial # is 1411475* anyone know what model year that translates to?

I also have an email off to the person with the 446 in Dracut, waiting to hear back on that one, the Onan motor is a little scary compare to the Kohler single cylinder. Sounds like it would be expensive to repair.

I hope to look at these soon.

Any comments would be appreciated

Thanks

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Tom Arnold

11-17-2013 22:56:26
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-17-2013 19:14:00  
You are missing one digit in the PIN but my guess is that it is a 1988, the last year of manufacture for the 444's.

As I have said previously, a used 3 pt hitch will easily bring $400.00 on e-Bay, if not more. A rear PTO commands $200.00 on most days. A decent Utility Blade will bring $200.00 to $400.00.

Case used Kohler K engines and Ingersoll kept on using them until production of the 200 and 400 Series ended in 1988. In other words, the 444 you are looking at should have a K engine with points, condenser and coil. All are suspect when there is no spark but none of them are expensive to replace.

The fact that the tractor ran last month is meaningless. Unless it is running when you come to view it, you cannot assess the PTO clutch or any aspect of the engine. Perhaps the charging system isn't working. Perhaps the engine is so tired it must be rebuilt immediately. Perhaps it has a broken rod.

Sellers who are too lazy to get their tractor into running shape should not be rewarded with the same sort of money a running tractor would garner. A battery that is allowed to go dead and sit in that state, is a damaged battery that is on its way out. Even if it will take a charge, it will not charge to the same level as a new one.

Case tractors did not come with FRONT hydraulics but that is not to say that a previous owner couldn't have added them.

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cowboy357

11-18-2013 17:46:47
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-17-2013 22:56:26  
Well the person with the 446 in Dracut got back to me tonight, it's sold so I'm still looking!! I didn't look at the no running 444 yet maybe next weekend, the seller isn't available during the week.

So the search goes on.

Thanks All I'll keep you posted!



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cowboy357

11-23-2013 19:10:10
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-18-2013 17:46:47  

Can anyone tell me the difference between the High wheel Case ? Ingersoll and the small wheel machine? Is it just the wheels, or is there something different about the frame? Are the decks and other attachments the same?
What happens if you change the wheels on a small wheel machine?

Thanks



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Tom Arnold

11-23-2013 21:15:48
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-23-2013 19:10:10  
Trying to convert a Lo Pro to a Hi Wheeler is an exercise in futility. Do not even attempt it. All you will do is destroy two tractors and end up with garbage that has little to no value.

It is more than just the back wheels. The axle shafts, drive motor, front axle, front spindles, tie rod, drag link, fenders, implement lift etc are all different. Even the basic frames are different due to the ground clearance.

Essentially the 38, 44 and 48 decks are interchangeable between the two Series providing you have the correct lift links that connect the rear of the deck to the implement lift. However, the 38" deck is not wide enough for the Hi Wheel models and the 48" deck is a bad choice on the ten HP 200's due to lack of HP to spin it while cutting thick or wet grass.

Just keep searching for a 444. Eventually you will spot one that was listed minutes earlier and you can jump on it before anyone else does.

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cowboy357

11-24-2013 05:20:48
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-23-2013 21:15:48  
Thanks

Tom that's what I was looking for!



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Dave Beiter

11-15-2013 08:56:37
156.63.133.8



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-15-2013 04:53:01  
Tom, is right on the money as far as values, I just picked up an Ingersoll 4014 (newer version of the 444) and it has the M14 Kohler in it with the electronic ignition. I am not certain if they used the M series prior to 1989 though.. well, I paid $500 for a good running 4014 with blade, deck and ag tires.. I would keep looking, the right tractor is out there just waiting for ya! I will keep lurking on this forum if you have any other questions!
Dave

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Tom Arnold

11-15-2013 06:43:15
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-15-2013 04:53:01  
The 444 model began in 1969 and continued until the end of the 1988 production year. During that period, many changes were made to it. Most of the tractors came with Kohler K engines that were fitted with points, condenser and coil ignition except for 1969 and 1970.

It may well be that in the latter couple of years, Ingersoll used Kohler M engines with electronic ignition. The serial number of the tractor will help determine which engine is in the tractor under discussion.

$1000.00 for a non-running tractor is a steep price UNLESS.....there are ample reasons to justify that number. Normally, I would not pay more than $300.00 for a non-runner with a deck but if it had a rear PTO kit, then that would increase the value in my eyes by $150.00. If it had a sleeve hitch, then it would be worth another $100.00. If it had a 3 point hitch instead, then I would pay another $300.00.

Tire chains, wheel weights, Flow Control Valve kit, a Utility Blade and a Snowcaster would all increase the value because all of these items could be sold individually later on to recover what was spent.

The problem with a non-running tractor is that you cannot run hear it run, see if there is smoke in the exhaust or listen for noises that should not be there. I think that the Seller has a lot of nerve asking that kind of money for a basic tractor with deck. If he feels that it is truly worth that much, then HE should spend whatever it takes to get it running. For all anyone knows, it has a broken rod and he's just looking for a sucker to pay his price.

Let's see the photos and all the info.

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Tom Arnold

11-10-2013 08:03:17
174.91.92.248



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-10-2013 06:02:33  
A couple of comments.

Not knowing where you reside makes it difficult for me to comment on the asking prices because those will vary widely from area to area. With no photos or additional information about the two tractors you have found, all I can see is that the asking prices are higher than the average.

Both models are the Lo Profile Series which have the same 12 inch rear rubber found on most other garden tractors. I really wish that you could find a 444 locally that you could see and try out. I think that once you get a chance to become acquainted with a High Wheel Case, you won't want anything else. Both the 200 and 400 Series tractors are very capable GT's and they are nearly identical when it comes to the parts used to build them. However, the High Wheel models have an extra 4 inches of ground clearance which comes in very handy at times and the ride is noticeably better.

The 222 has a 12 HP Kohler K engine and the 3014 will have either a 14 HP Kohler Magnum or a 14 HP Briggs Vanguard engine. The 3014 is a 1996. The newest that the 222 can be is 1988.

I am having a hard time buying into the idea that the 222 has 600 hours on it since Case never put hour meters on any of their models. Ingersoll didn't do so until about 1986 so perhaps the 222 is actually a mid to late 80's model. A tractor would have to lead a very sheltered life in order to have a mere 600 hours on it after 25 years. The average use is 50 hours per year and therefore 1200 hours would be expected. The 3014 is 17 years old and logically should have about 800 to 900 hours on it.

I am always leery of hour meters with low readings because there is no guarantee that the hour meter was not disconnected or replaced at some point. One must disregard the hour meter reading and instead, rely upon what your eyes and gut tells you during a slow and careful inspection of the tractor.

If you want to have a 3 point hitch at some point, then the 3014 is the tractor to choose. Case never made a 3 point for the 200 Series BUT.... the later hitch that was designed to be used on the 3000/4000/6000 models will work on a 200. Expect to pay $500.00 or more to buy that hitch as a used, separate item. This is why it is wiser to seek out a used tractor that already has a hitch on it because you often save money by doing so.

I think that you definitely should go and see those two tractors and test drive them, if only for the experience. Directly below the seat is a shift lever that changes the trans-axle from Low Range to High Range. There is Neutral in the mid-point and you often have to rock the tractor a bit to get the straight-cut gears to mesh. Drive the tractor in both ranges with the engine at full throttle so that you understand the difference in ground speeds.

Rear tires almost never wear out but front tires do. So take a look at the tread on the fronts. If the fronts look new, then they have been changed and that casts doubt on the claim of 600 hours. Check how much free play is in the steering wheel. A 600 hour tractor should still have fairly tight steering. Does the steering pull to one side. Take your hands of the wheel while driving on smooth, flat, level ground and see if the tractor continues to go straight.

Look at the tie rod between the two front wheels and the drag link that connects the right front wheel to the steering gear. Are the perfectly straight or are they bent? Stand beside each front wheel and look straight down to the front axle. Does the kingpin look to be vertical or is it bent to the rear at the bottom? If so, then the front axle is bent due to the front wheel slamming into something solid.

Faded paint, surface rust and peeling decals all indicate that the tractor has been left outside instead of being garaged. Check the wiring harness. Has it been cut and spliced? Do you see repairs to it? Open the hood. How clean is the area ? Look under the tractor and see if the area around the steering gear and rear end are reasonably clean. Look for signs of paint overspray or parts of the tractor that look freshly painted compared to other areas adjacent.

The 222 will have the trusty mechanical PTO clutch. It is actuated by a lever on the left side of the dash tower. If it is adjusted properly, you should have to use a fair bit of pressure to push it to the over-center point where it snaps into full engagement. Make sure that the mower deck is mounted to the tractor so you can check it out along with the clutch. The deck should be fairly quiet. It should come to a stop quickly once the PTO lever is pulled all the way back. If the belt continues to turn, then the clutch needs adjustment and possibly repair.

If the deck seems noisy, then it may need all of the spindle bearings to be replaced. Not a big deal but certainly not something that either of these high priced tractors should exhibit.

The 3014 has an electric clutch that is actuated by a switch on the left side of the dash. These clutches are not repairable. When they fail, you throw them away and install a new one at about $300.00.

The 222 will discharge grass to the left and the 3014 discharges grass to the right. This is because the engines are mounted opposite to one another in those years.

Check the ID plate on the 222 and write down the serial number. Look for an aluminum plate on the dash tower at knee level. That number will reveal the year.

If you can take photos from all four sides of each tractor and send them to me, I can comment further.

Good luck with your search. Look upon it as a part of self-education.

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Tom Arnold

11-10-2013 08:17:02
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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-10-2013 08:03:17  
One more thing.

On the left side of the steering wheel is a lever. It controls direction and ground speed. Push the lever downward toward the dash initially and then ease it in a clock-wise direction to make the tractor travel forward.

The more you move the lever clock-wise, the faster the tractor will travel. To slow the tractor down, move the lever counter-clockwise back to neutral. The same procedure is used to reverse the tractor using the same lever. Push the lever downward initially and then rotate it counter-clockwise slowly. These tractors will go as fast in reverse as they do in forward so be careful.

On the right side of the steering wheel is another lever. This one controls the hydraulic implement lift. Springs make this lever return to neutral whenever the lever is released. To raise the implement you pull the lever downward. To lower the implement, you push the lever upward. If you were using a snowblower or utility blade, you might want those implements to move up and down without any interference from the tractor. This is called "float" and if you push the lever all the way up, you should feel it go past a detent which will hold the lever all the way up until you pull it back down.

Test the lift lever fully to make sure all aspects of it work properly.

The engine will not spin over unless the Travel Lever is in NEUTRAL and the PTO is disengaged. In other words, the PTO lever on the 222 must be pulled all the way back to you and the PTO switch on the 3014 must be in the OFF position.

Print these messages out and take them with you for review just before visiting each tractor.

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cowboy357

11-10-2013 19:39:58
108.7.39.101



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to Tom Arnold, 11-10-2013 08:17:02  
Tom, I missed a 444 by two days, they were asking $1400 and it sold. I did noticed the wheels looked larger on that machine. Are there any other models other than the 444 that have the bigger wheels? I think your right the extra ground clearance would be useful.
Here are the links to the two tractors we were discussing.
Thanks

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/grd/4181542361.html

http://southcoast.craigslist.org/pts/4162309151.html

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Tom Arnold

11-10-2013 21:17:25
174.91.92.248



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 Re: best cub to buy & why in reply to cowboy357, 11-10-2013 19:39:58  
I went looking for the 222 and was unable to find it. I did find the 3014 and was not terribly impressed with it. A well-cared for tractor should not have peeling decals or need touch up if it only has 600 hours on it.

I did see multiple listings for the same 444 that began life as a 200 Series and was converted. Do not touch something like this with a ten foot pole. Conversions are done by ignorant people that do not realize the true differences between the two series.

Aside from the 444 model, Case also made a 446 and a 448 that were powered by 16 HP and 18 HP Onan flat twins. These are excellent tractors providing you can find one with a low hour engine. I was steering you toward a 444 because the K-321 Kohler engine is very inexpensive to rebuild whereas Onan's are not.

I have given you a link to a 446 that may not be too far from you. It does have the 3 point hitch but I do not see the rear PTO kit on it. This one claims to have 750 hours on it and the condition looks to be good enough to support those hours. It comes with tire chains, the front weight kit and a utility blade.

In my opinion, tire chains are worth about 50 used, a really good utility blade can be worth up to 400. The hitch is easily worth 400 to 500 currently. He talks about a front weight kit but no photo. If he has the suitcase weight kit, then that will easily bring 300 to 450 by itself. If it is just a front weight box, then that's worth about 80 if it is in good shape.

So right there, you have a possibility of 800 plus in optional equipment if all is in good shape.

Providing the hours are true, then a 1987 Ingersoll 446 would be worth 1200, especially in the Rhode Island/ upper Mass area. Prices seem to be much higher in RI for some reason.

If the tractor checks out and is within your budget, then I'd offer him 1800 cash on the spot. Cash in hand talks very load, especially when you come with a trailer to take the package away immediately.

At the very least, do a compression test on the Onan. Anything above 90 PSI is OK. Over 100 is better, especially when both cylinders are within 5 LBS of each other.

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