860 battery won't charge

Hope everybody had a good Fourth.

I have an electrical problem I was hoping I could get some advice on: my 860 isn't charging the battery and I don't know why. The tractor is 6V positive ground. If I recall, the battery wasn't charging when I got the machine seven or eight years ago; I replaced the voltage regulator with a new one from Brillman. It charged for a while, then got sort of intermittent. I finally had the OEM generator rebuilt at a reputable local shop last fall. I remember being in a rush the day I got the generator back from the shop and I don't recall whether I polarized it or not -- it's possible I forgot. Anyway it charged for a while, then started not charging on startup but coming on after running for a bit (like fifteen minutes to half an hour). Now it just doesn't charge at all. I put in a new wiring harness this weekend, but no change. Pretty sure it's wired right (followed the schematic in the shop manual). The battery is about four years old if it matters.

Anyway the tractor starts easy and runs great; just can't get the battery to charge. Is it the voltage regulator again? Maybe I fried it inadvertently. What should I do/test to get this resolved? Thanks in advance for the help!

How do you know that the battery is not charging?

Do you routinely charge the battery with an AC charger?

Dean

Josh-
Dead battery? Get it tested. Just because you have a 6V battery dont assume it is wired correctly for that system. A battery must meet specific gravity levels. Hydrometer to test or local shop has special test equipment (preferred). If bad, get a new 6V AG GRP 1, a good brand (DEKA, INTERSTATE, DURACELL, EXIDE) not a wallyworld/tsc special. Other than that, stop buying new parts and just replacing without first performing a true root cause problem solving method to determine if part is good or bad. Who/what is a Brillman??? No matter, not important, brands don't mean squat for the most part, it most likely was made in Cheena anyway. VR can be tested too. First up is the battery. Do you use a float charger such as the DELTRAN Battery Tender Jr. when tractor is at rest in the barn for days, weeks, months on end? No? Get battery tested. Most shops will do this at no charge. Seven/eight years without a float charger (NOT a trickle charger) is a long time without one and chances are your battery is very weak if not completely dead. Does the AMMETER show any movement at all? Do you still have your old VR? VR can be tested too. Next up is the wiring. While your battery is out of the system at the shop, get out your OEM Manuals and start verifying the wiring is all correct. You can motor test the GEN yourself or take it to your battery/starter shop guy and he can test it as well, usually for free. The CLYMER/I&T FO-20 Manual has a chapter on testing the GEN and VR. Polarizing the GEN is required after all else is verified and before power is applied but, that isnt your problem. NAA and up use the B Circuit VR. Using this basic procedure you most likely will discover the true root cause of your problem. Start with the ESSENTIAL MANUALS. Follow-up with a report once done.

FORD 600 & 800 ESSENTIAL MANUALS:

TESTING BATTERY FOR SPECIFIC GRAVITY:

POLARIZING THE GENERATOR via THE VR; NAA, 600, 800 USE THE B CIRCUIT:

Tim Daley(MI)

What are you getting for voltages with your digital, auto setting multimeter?

The charging voltage should be 7.1 to 7.3 volts at 1/2 throttle. A digital meter may not be stable unless it is expensive. An analog (needle) type is
much better for old tractors. If the battery is fully charged, the needle will usually stay near the center of the amp meter. Jim

Does it start? A weak or dead battery will just click click click the starter motor solenoid if not. If it does, what does the AMMETER show? Try at idle, at 7/8 throttle, and with and without lights on. Nothing? It may be a bad gauge, a bad GEN, a bad VR, or a combination of all. Check the fan belt tension. Sloppy? Tighten up with the GEN Belt Tensioner. Next, apply a VOM set to VDC and see what the battery voltage reads static. Less than 6.3 VDC? Yes? take to a trusty local starter/alt shop and get tested. You need a good power source to begin with. A basic trickle charger won't do squat if the battery is dead and won't sustain a full charge under load (specific gravity). If battery tests good, try another AMP Gage. If none available, you can take your battery, AMP Gauge, GEN and VR to your local starter/alt shop guy who knows Ford Tractors and get them all tested. As I said below, don't assume just because you have a 6V battery the system is wired correctly for that setup. 99/98% of all non=-starting issues are due to incorrect wiring. Never just start buying new parts and replacing until old ones are determined to be defective.

Tim Daley(MI)

Yep, had my fat fingers in the way! A digital VOM is OK with a static check but when tractor is running signals can be all over the place and you will never get an accurate reading, unless of course you have a $2500 meter. Best to use an older ANALOG VOM with engine is running. If AMMETER is working correctly, at full charge the gauge may not show a needle movement at all. If you apply lights you may see a slight discharge. Having the correct fan belt tension regardless if 6V/POS GRN with a GEN & VR or if a 12V/NEG GRN with an alt, if you don't maintain proper belt tension, you will never charge the battery.

Tim

(quoted from post at 08:19:11 07/06/21) How do you know that the battery is not charging?

Do you routinely charge the battery with an AC charger?

Dean

Click to expand...

Dean -- the ammeter (working) shows slight discharge when I turn the key. No change when the tractor starts, even at higher rpms (1500 or thereabouts). Once upon a time when it worked, the ammeter would show charge on startup, then settle back down to right around zero like it should.

I also think the battery isn't charging because it grows weaker over time. I've had to charge it a handful of times over the last couple of years to be able to start the tractor. I always disconnect the ground strap for safety when the machine's not in use, so there shouldn't be any draw other than on startup/during operation.

I'll check voltage across the battery terminals this evening to make sure.

You can momentarily bypass the regulator by jumpering (tieing together) the generator ARM and Field terminals and Batt to ARM together on the VR in order to see if generator will charge.
Do not leave it jumpered this way when not running!

Tim, greetings. Thanks for the detailed responses. I think the tractor's wired correctly for 6V positive ground. The wiring is pretty simple and I followed the wiring schematic in the original shop manual (which I have, along with the operator's manual and the TO-20 manual). I will triple-check the wiring this evening.

Point well taken about throwing parts around. I will say I picked up the new harness because it was a maintenance item I'd been meaning to attend to -- rainy Fourth of July weekend seemed like a good time to install it! The old harness wasn't original, but it was at least 30 years old and it was a cheap one to begin with (crimped terminals, no weatherproofing, etc.). The VR is made in the USA . . . but that doesn't mean it works.

I don't use a float charger, no (might be a topic for another thread). The battery's only four years old, but I can take it in and get it tested. But even if the battery won't take a full charge and needs to be replaced, since the tractor starts easily now (as long as I charge the battery periodically), shouldn't the charging system still show me it's trying to charge the battery? Maybe that's not true/I'm not an electrician!

Ammeter does show movement -- key on, drops slightly (maybe two amps). Drops more (8 amps) with headlights on. No change though when the tractor starts, and doesn't change with increasing RPMs.

Re: your later posts, yes, the tractor starts fine -- if the battery's charged! When I tried to start it last weekend, I got the solenoid click-click-click that you describe. I put the AC charger on for a while, then it started. So yes, weak battery definitely.

Fan belt tension is set according to the manual, whatever it is -- 1/2 in deflection I think. I'll recheck though to make sure nothing slipped.

I don't have a $2,500 digital multimeter (grin), but I definitely have a cheap analog one! I'll check battery voltage static and running this evening and post back. Thanks again for your help!

Thanks -- that sounds like the test I need to do. Just so I'm sure I understand, you mean jumper (1) the arm and field terminals at the generator, and separately (2) batt to arm at the regulator, right? Thanks again.

(quoted from post at 12:00:50 07/06/21)
Thanks -- that sounds like the test I need to do. Just so I'm sure I understand, you mean jumper (1) the arm and field terminals at the generator, and separately (2) batt to arm at the regulator, right? Thanks again.

Click to expand...

es. Actually the end result is to tie all 3 together (Batt, Field, ARMATURE). But you don't want to do this non-running or you will be discharging the battery into a stalled generator.

(quoted from post at 22:19:58 07/05/21) my 860 isn't charging the battery and I don't know why. The tractor is 6V positive ground...... I replaced the voltage regulator with a new one from Brillman. It charged for a while, then got sort of intermittent...... Now it just doesn't charge at all.

Click to expand...

IMHO

For what it's worth, it is difficult, if not damn near impossible to get new, good working 6V voltage regulators. I've been trying for years, purchasing dozens and dozens, if not, a hundred or more of them. These came from many different good quality shops & vendors. Some made in China, some India, and some USA. Never really seemed to matter. From $20 to near $100. Price never seemed to make much of a difference in how well they worked for me.

The old original ones seem to work practically forever. While half the new ones out of the box can be junk, and most of the rest stop working reliably in the near future. I now recommend going to an alternator when one of the oldies stops working.

12V regulators rarely give me a problem.

[u:7e068fb0cf]Note!
No disrespect at all meant towards John Brillman. He is a stand-up guy who makes great quality, top notch stuff.[/u:7e068fb0cf] 6V VR's are just an animal of their own.

This post was edited by jimtrs on 07/06/2021 at 10:15 am.

Josh-
Don't guess or jump to conclusions, as with any problem, true root cause problem solve to know for sure if it is wired correctly. Trace each wire, use VOM set to continuity and don't just try and go by wire colors. They may not be OEM and thus not the same colors and besides, colors don't conduct electrons. If AMMETER reads NEG at start up, could be the gauge terminals are reversed. Try switching and see if that changes anything. If gauge is wired right, and lights ON cause more discharge, I'd say the gauge is working fine but you definetly have something shorting out causing the discharge.
Also, a 4 year old battery is about par for a cheap brand battery. Batteries can be junk out the door of the store too. 4 minutes or 4 years doesn't matter. Just applying a standard charger (trickle)isn't going to do squat if the battery is weak or dead. You want to start with it and to be sure so take your battery to your trusty/local starter/alt shop guy and have it bench tested. Test bad? Get a new one and see what happens now with AMP Gauge and charging assuming you've verified all the wiring is correct. You may want to try removing the lighting wire connections temporarily til all else is right. Often fellas wire their lights wrong and thus can cause a phantom drain. Still bad? Can move on to the GEN and VR. Motor test the GEN or take both to your guy at the shop and have him bench test both as well.

Tim Daley(MI)

Thanks Tim. Between thunderstorms I managed to check the battery's static charge: 6V, pretty weak. I'll get the battery tested and replace it if necessary. It wasn't a cheap battery, but deep-cycling it instead of fixing the charging system probably didn't help it any. I'm wondering if I fried the regulator when I reinstalled the rebuilt generator but didn't swap out the weak battery. Anyway battery check first, then once that's sorted I'll try JMOR's test to see whether the regulator's working and post back.

Update: I took the battery in for testing; it flunked, I replaced it. No matter: charging system still not working. I unbolted the generator and the regulator and took them both to the local shop. The owner threw them on the test stand. Generator tested fine, but regulator was only putting out about 6V. So he starts pulling new regulators off the shelf. First one's bad. Grabs another one. That one's bad too. He grabs a third one. Still doesn't work. Finally the fourth one works. I picked that one, yeesh.

Anyway should be good to go. Thanks everybody for your help. I feel a little less electrically challenged now.

Drat! Hooked everything back up (including new regulator), checked belt tension (1/2" deflection), started the tractor, and the ammeter showed over 20 amps of charge at about 1,000 rpm. I've never seen the gauge read so high! Throttling up to about 1,500 rpm showed nearly +30 on the gauge! Max charge is supposed to be 20 amps at 1,650 rpm! Turning on the headlights dropped it down about 7 amps. Idling down to maybe 750 rpm dropped the gauge to about +10 or so. This can't be normal. I shut it down after about 10 minutes at low idle and the generator was pretty hot to the touch.

Battery static charge is 6.3V. While running, battery measured what looked like over 7.5V.

At this point: (1) generator is rebuilt, (2) battery is brand new, (3) regulator is brand new and supposedly works (but does it really?), and (4) all wiring is replaced. What on earth is going on??

The only things that aren't new are the solenoid and the key switch. The solenoid is a 4-post unit for an 801, with a jumper wire between battery hot and the "I" post. The tractor starts, so I left that alone. The key switch is a three-position switch. Assuming neither of those things matter . . .

This post was edited by Josh Tallent on 07/10/2021 at 07:52 am.

Josh, you may want to try doing some of the testing as recommended here as opposed to just replacing parts.

(quoted from post at 09:47:56 07/10/21)

Josh, you may want to try doing some of the testing as recommended here as opposed to just replacing parts.

Click to expand...

Sure, and I did. I took the battery to the shop to have it load tested. It failed. I replaced it. With the new battery installed, the charging system still showed no charge (which I verified with my voltmeter). So I took the rebuilt generator and the VREG to the generator shop and had them both bench tested. The generator was good; the VREG wasn't. I went home with a good generator and a supposedly good VREG, installed it (correctly, per wiring diagram in the shop manual), polarized it, and started up. The rest is history. What else can I test??

(quoted from post at 13:01:04 07/06/21)

(quoted from post at 22:19:58 07/05/21) my 860 isn't charging the battery and I don't know why. The tractor is 6V positive ground...... I replaced the voltage regulator with a new one from Brillman. It charged for a while, then got sort of intermittent...... Now it just doesn't charge at all.

Click to expand...

IMHO

For what it's worth, it is difficult, if not damn near impossible to get new, good working 6V voltage regulators. I've been trying for years, purchasing dozens and dozens, if not, a hundred or more of them. These came from many different good quality shops & vendors. Some made in China, some India, and some USA. Never really seemed to matter. From $20 to near $100. Price never seemed to make much of a difference in how well they worked for me.

The old original ones seem to work practically forever. While half the new ones out of the box can be junk, and most of the rest stop working reliably in the near future. I now recommend going to an alternator when one of the oldies stops working.

12V regulators rarely give me a problem.

[u:d9f8007178]Note!
No disrespect at all meant towards John Brillman. He is a stand-up guy who makes great quality, top notch stuff.[/u:d9f8007178] 6V VR's are just an animal of their own.

This post was edited by jimtrs on 07/06/2021 at 10:15 am.

Click to expand...

The generator shop took back the new (bad) regulator, which was nice of them. I picked up another new one at NAPA. I installed it, and (surprise!) it didn't work (no charge to battery). I jumped the regulator base plate to various grounds with no effect. Next I jumped arm to batt and it showed charge, but then started flicking back and forth between +10 or more and -10 on the ammeter. I tried jumping field to batt, and it showed a steady +10 at about 1,000 rpm. Battery was reading 8.5V.

So the new regulator is also bad, straight out of the box. Including the three regulators that tested bad off the self at the generator shop, that makes a grand total of five bad regulators, not including the old one that didn't work to begin with. All I can say is, jimtrs appears to have nailed it.

(quoted from post at 08:58:21 07/11/21)

(quoted from post at 13:01:04 07/06/21)

(quoted from post at 22:19:58 07/05/21) my 860 isn't charging the battery and I don't know why. The tractor is 6V positive ground...... I replaced the voltage regulator with a new one from Brillman. It charged for a while, then got sort of intermittent...... Now it just doesn't charge at all.

Click to expand...

IMHO

For what it's worth, it is difficult, if not damn near impossible to get new, good working 6V voltage regulators. I've been trying for years, purchasing dozens and dozens, if not, a hundred or more of them. These came from many different good quality shops & vendors. Some made in China, some India, and some USA. Never really seemed to matter. From $20 to near $100. Price never seemed to make much of a difference in how well they worked for me.

The old original ones seem to work practically forever. While half the new ones out of the box can be junk, and most of the rest stop working reliably in the near future. I now recommend going to an alternator when one of the oldies stops working.

12V regulators rarely give me a problem.

[u:61839b0fa3]Note!
No disrespect at all meant towards John Brillman. He is a stand-up guy who makes great quality, top notch stuff.[/u:61839b0fa3] 6V VR's are just an animal of their own.

This post was edited by jimtrs on 07/06/2021 at 10:15 am.

Click to expand...

The generator shop took back the new (bad) regulator, which was nice of them. I picked up another new one at NAPA. I installed it, and (surprise!) it didn't work (no charge to battery). I jumped the regulator base plate to various grounds with no effect. Next I jumped arm to batt and it showed charge, but then started flicking back and forth between +10 or more and -10 on the ammeter. I tried jumping field to batt, and it showed a steady +10 at about 1,000 rpm. Battery was reading 8.5V.

So the new regulator is also bad, straight out of the box. Including the three regulators that tested bad off the self at the generator shop, that makes a grand total of five bad regulators, not including the old one that didn't work to begin with. All I can say is, jimtrs appears to have nailed it.

Click to expand...

ryin' shame, but appears that the skills to make good ones are lost to time. That is why I am careful of the few original equipment VRs that I have and when can't be made to work, the gen is off and a 10-SI is on.