Dpierce

Member
I recently purchased a 1968 ford 5000 diesel non runner. Story is it ran fine when parked for the winter but wouldn't start the following spring (this year). PO tried either and claimed to have put other stuff (unknown) down the intake, still wouldn't start and he could get fuel thru the filters to the injection pump but no fuel out of the pump. Tractor turns over fine just wont start. I have since then got fuel to squirt out at the injectors by priming the pump. tractor now has whitish colored smoke come out the exhaust when cranking but still doesn't fire off. I'm not a big fan of either but I did give a couple of quick squirts and still nothing. I checked the timing by putting NO.1 TDC flywheel mark on 0. the injector drive gear and cam drive gear dots line up. turned the flywheel to 19 degrees and the injector timing marks line up. seams it should start, am I missing a something? I am new to this forum, any help and advise greatly appreciated.
 
The timing does not change when the tractor is simply parked over the winter, so if it was running when it was parked, and you did not mess
with anything, we'll assume the timing is OK.

Do you have healthy squirts of fuel coming out of the lines, or only dribbles? I suspect you still have some air in the lines/pump somewhere,
and that you're not getting the volume that you need. That said, it should fire on ether.

About the only other "worst case scenario" I can think of is that the PO used too much ether and/or "other stuff" and mechanically damaged
one or more pistons/rings. Ether has been known to break piston rings and even bend rods, so that's something to think about. Try cranking
the engine with the fuel off. Does the cranking RPM sound consistent, or is it uneven? If it's uneven, you likely have compression problems.
 

Bern
On those Sims pumps if it's been used low on oil will the rack stick if it sets for an extended period.
Several out there that don't know that pump has it's own oil system.

John
 
I checked the oil in the pump. it is a little low but isn't out. I pulled the side cover off and the rack seems to operate when the fuel shut off is pulled. it also squirts fuel out the 4 outlet lines when cranking.
 
I did change the pump timing a little. with no.1 cylinder tdc flywheel on 0 the fuel drive gear did not line up until flywheel showed 20 degrees. I nudged the flywheel to 19 degrees loosened the three bolts on the pump gear and realigned the timing marks and retightened the three bolts. I'm not sure what good fuel flow is but what I have is at the pump with the 4 lines off it will squirt a gulp of fuel 1-2" high while cranking. hooked the lines back up and removed them at the injector and get a pst pst pst with enough pressure to push past my finger. there is a return line on the top of the injectors that leads to what appears to be a regulator. from the regulator one line goes to tank, one to the fuel filters, and one the front of the intake. I do not have a compression tester but It does turn over fairly hard with a wrench on the compression stroke and considerably easier when not. would low compression keep the engine from trying to start on either?
 

How are you powering the starter? Is it cranking over fast? A diesel will crank all day without firing if the cranking speed is too slow.
 
Are you SURE this thing was running when it was last parked? Everything I'm seeing so far points to the timing being 180 degrees off. That doesn't happen unless someone messes up the timing gears and pump. If the thing has compression, it should fire being how it's summer.

Are you sure it's getting air? Maybe mice built a nest in the intake?
 
I have a new fully charged tractor battery. engine seams to spin fine. It also has a new starter on it from the PO.
 
I am not sure if it was running. just going by what I was told. today I pulled the injectors out all of them were very wet and cruddy. I polished them up the best I could with a scotchbrite pad also cleaned the injector hole in the head. while the injectors were out I turned the engine over and a bunch of fluid sprayed out as it turned over. I don't know if this was the stuff the po put in it or if it was diesel from cranking it. eventually the spray stopped so it put the injectors back in reprimed the fuel system but still no start just puffs smoke. the intake isn't plugged and I have tried turning it over with the air cleaner unhooked from the intake. I have not looked into the air cleaner itself. with the no.1 cylinder tdc both valves closed flywheel on 0 the fuel drive gear dot lines up with the cam drive gear. nudge it to 19 degrees and the line on the fuel drive gear lines up on the housing perfectly. I cant see the cam or crank gear marks but assume they do line up as well.
 
I have not tried starting fluid since I removed the injectors. I had uses a few shots of it before but it wouldn't try to start on it. it is getting fuel to the injectors and will puff out a little smoke from the exhaust while cranking. the fuel tank is almost empty about 2" above the petcock. the fuel looks to be gravity fed to the bottom of the injector pump could it need more fuel in the tank to make it flow better? may be time to buy a compression tester
 
Why not flush the fuel system while the injectors are out, open where the lines connect to the injectors....checking for good fuel flow available at the
tube outlets while you are there. Then with fresh fuel available, reconnect the injectors to their fuel lines and spin it a bit watching the spray pattern with
them out. If it looks good fine, if not, correct the problem.

Bern has a good idea about clogs and include exhaust while you are at it.

If it ran when parked and it has been parked, why should you have a timing issue?
 
im taking the po word for most of my trouble shooting maybe I shouldn't. not real familiar on diesel system sand thought getting smoke out the exhaust while cranking was a good sign and figure a shot of either would do the trick but the either made no difference. I will completely drain the fuel system change the filters and hook the injector up out of the cylinder and see what I get. can bad diesel over come the effects of the either preventing the engine from even trying to hit and fire off.
 

I consider having 2" of fuel in the tank the same as having no fuel, the suction screen sticks up nearly 1 1/2 inches.
You can drain the old fuel out or poor 5 gallons of fresh fuel in on top of the old, your choice.

The Sims pump on these tractors have a fuel enrichment button that's located on the end of the fuel shut off lever. Sometimes my old 5000 won't start until I push the fuel enrichment button in.

Also not sure where you have the throttle set but I always pull to throttle to at least half open and then idle it back down once the engine starts.
 
my tractor doesn't have a fuel enrichment button. it has the pull rod to kill the engine, below that is the headlight switch. the only other knob it has is by the throttle lever for tilting the wheel. raising the throttle makes no difference in cranking or the amount of smoke out the exhaust. The most puzzling thing to me is the fact it wont try to start up on the either. I think it should even if the fuel system was empty. there is a solenoid looking device by the top of the fuel tank with 4 lines to it. one goes to the tank, one to one of the fuel filters two outlets, one to the top of the injectors and one to the front of the intake. it has no electric to it and doesn't appear to have a place for electric. leads me to think it is pressure controlled. is this possibly the fuel enrichment system?
 
(quoted from post at 15:23:06 06/24/18) my tractor doesn't have a fuel enrichment button. it has the pull rod to kill the engine, below that is the headlight switch. the only other knob it has is by the throttle lever for tilting the wheel. raising the throttle makes no difference in cranking or the amount of smoke out the exhaust. The most puzzling thing to me is the fact it wont try to start up on the either. I think it should even if the fuel system was empty. there is a solenoid looking device by the top of the fuel tank with 4 lines to it. one goes to the tank, one to one of the fuel filters two outlets, one to the top of the injectors and one to the front of the intake. it has no electric to it and doesn't appear to have a place for electric. leads me to think it is pressure controlled. is this possibly the fuel enrichment system?

The fuel enrichment button is on the side of the injection pump, not on the dash.
If you look on the pump where the stop cable connects to the shut off lever, the shaft that lever hooks to actually has a button in the end of it, pushing that button in activates the fuel enrichment, once the engine starts the button should automatically pop back out.

The thing your calling a solenoid is nothing more than a fuel cap that holds extra fuel for the thermostart valve in the intake manifold. This is a cool weather starting aid that activated by holding the key between the on and start position.
DO NOT spray ether into the intake after using the thermostart.


One thing we've just found out, the fact that you tractor has tilt steering and the throttle pushes forward tells me it's a 5200 row crop model of the 5000 series.

Starting one on ether is a bit of an art
A small quick shot in the air cleaner before cranking the engine will usually dissipate and have little effect.
Spraying a fourth of a can in at once is real bad and can damage the pistons along with other stuff.
I give it about a one second shot and start cranking the engine, then after 4-5 seconds of cranking I'll give it another shot then after another 4-5 seconds a third, normally it'll do something by then, if not I stop and wait a bit before doing it again.
If it hasn't tried to hit by the end of the second round there's something wrong.
 
That's the injector surplus circuit and also the Thermostart Feed....surplus back to the tank and a supply to feed the Thermostart when you push that
button....put the key switch in the TS position....red dash lights go out on the way to the Start position....all mechanical plumbing there and nothing to
do with starting other than supporting the TS function. The power lead for that is a spade lug on the side of the TS module in the intake manifold, about
2" from the air inlet.
 
I really appreciate all the help and input,it has helped a bunch. this tractor is a high crop model if I ran the numbers correctly. the seat sits on a platform and your feet rest on it as well. is a 5200 series rare? since my last post I have hooked up the intake warmer and it actually works. when it ignited it caused a small woof in the intake and caused water to splash out the top of the air cleaner. the air cleaner was full of oil,water and grey sludge. the po had told me he had the tractor running for a little bit on the either but it didn't want to and eventually died and hasn't started since. I'm thinking that some of this water/sludge got sucked into the engine and is why it didn't want to run very good or start after it died (thank you bern for suggesting to inspect the intake for blockage). when I used the either I gave it a quick 1-2 second squirt right into the the intake where the rubber elbow connects the to the air cleaner tube.
 
good to know it has nothing to do with starting in warm weather. the thermal start had no wire to it and I don't have a push button, not that it shouldn't. my key switch has 4 positions. one to the left of off two to the right of off. all are stationary except for the start position. if I can get this tractor running I plan to hook the ts back up since it does work when I jump 12volts to the spade on it.
 
thought I might add that fuel enrichment button doesn't stay pressed in and doesn't seem to have any kind of resistance or detent when being pushed.
 
My brother, the diesel mechanic, used to warn about fooling around with
injectors. The pressure can force diesel through your skin and into your blood.
 
The key switch going clockwise
1. Off
2. Acc.
3. On
4. Thermostart (dash lights go out when in this position but come back on in Start whereby the TS continues to get power.)
5. Start.

Seems every Ford made since '65 runs on the same switch. Why not....simplifies the parts seller and volume mfgr. gets a better price. Same with TS.
Works, bullet proof, why not?????
 
The proper procedure to do the fuel enrichment is
1 push in the red fuel shut off control
2 move the throttle to max
3 push the button that is located at the pivot of the shut off arm on the pump
4 move the throttle lever to half speed

When you do # 3 you should hear a distinct sound. I would describe it as a "tink". The sound is the fuel rack moving to max delivery.

If you pull back on the fuel shut off, it resets the system.


A question, what tranny is in this thing? If it is the 8 speed, can someone pull start ya? If it's a SOS forget that idea.

Keith
 
yes it has the 8 speed. i wasn't wanting to pull start it because i haven't heard it run and don't know the tractor or any issues it may have.
 
You can get it rolling over a lot faster by pulling it. If the compression is low because of stuck rings etc., you may be cranking enough to ruin the starter.
By pulling it you may get it started and the compression come up enough to allow it to start better later.
It's just what I would do.
Keith
 
(quoted from post at 17:14:36 06/25/18) The key switch going clockwise
1. Off
2. Acc.
3. On
4. Thermostart (dash lights go out when in this position but come back on in Start whereby the TS continues to get power.)
5. Start.

Seems every Ford made since '65 runs on the same switch. Why not....simplifies the parts seller and volume mfgr. gets a better price. Same with TS.
Works, bullet proof, why not?????

The '75 x600 series and newer had the key switch that you describe, and that is the only replacement key switch that has been sold for years so that is what most of the '65-'75 thousand series diesel tractors now have, but the original '65-'75 diesel key switch was actually:

1. "Off" was in the straight up-and-down (middle) key position.
2. Run was one click to the right of off.
3. Normal Start was to the right beyond "Run" and was spring loaded so that once started the key would spring back to "Run.
4. "Heat" was one click to the left of "Off".
5. "Heat" was to the left beyond "Heat" and was spring loaded so that once started with th e"Heat Start" position the keey would spring back to "Off" and you had to manually move the key to "Run" in order for the charging circuit and gauges to work.
 
tonight I reassembled the air cleaner and added 5 gallons of fresh fuel to the near empty tank. still no start but here is what I discovered after I pulled the valve cover off. when I crank the engine the same smoke that comes out the exhaust also comes up thru no. 2&3 push rod holes. it may come out the no.1&4 as well but defiantly very noticeable on the 2&3. this makes me think I have compression issues. either broken rings or bad pistons. I'm thinking I need to pull the head and see what I have and hope the cylinders are ok and can get buy with a inframe rebuild kit.
 
Been a long time but I think my MF 35s started like that too, at least the Perkie 3 cyl diesel did. I didn't like the idea and preferred the current (near past
era) Ford method with the TS in with the rest of why you turn the key.
 
Or worn out valve guides which your machinist can fix while you have the head serviced. If the VGs are worn out and the engine proper has never seen a
wrench, you can bet that you are ready for a full OH. No compression, no heat, no start.
 
(quoted from post at 08:33:06 06/26/18) Or worn out valve guides which your machinist can fix while you have the head serviced. If the VGs are worn out and the engine proper has never seen a wrench, you can bet that you are ready for a full OH. No compression, no heat, no start.

If the valve guides are worn wouldn't the smoke be coming up around the valve stems rather than around the push rods?
 
. I plan to have the head inspected while it's off as well as the injectors. Other than that I hoping that the cylinders are all scratched up and don't show a lot of wear and can get by with new rings and maybe pistons if needed. Will also plasti gauge the rods and replace the rod bearings to if the check out ok while it's appart. Hoping $800ish will have it back in decent running order. Any recu on where or where not to buy parts?
 

If it has enough compression to make smoke, with a little ether assistance it should start.
It may be worn and need rebuilt but I've never not been able to get one to start if it had enough compression to make smoke.

I've had to pull start some to get the engine spinning fast enough but it started.
 

If it has enough compression to make smoke, with a little ether assistance it should start.
It may be worn and need rebuilt but I've never not been able to get one to start if it had enough compression to make smoke.

I've had to pull start some to get the engine spinning fast enough but it started.
 
my thought was it may only have a couple of cylinders actually firing allowing it to make smoke but not start. I don't have a diesel compression tester and figured the cost of a few gaskets to pull the head would be cheaper than buying one. It also had air bubbles coming out one of the vavle cover bolt holes. Guessing they are threaded thru and don't have a bottom.
 

Well until you get it running or do a few basic checks you don't know what you have.
Pulling the head off for a look see can turn into snow ball, it may only end up needing a few gaskets to put the head back on or it could turn into a full blown rebuild with bored or sleeved block and major head work.
Last 5000 I tore down someone had ran it with broken rings, 4 new sleeves, pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump, all new valves, rebuilt inj got it going again.
Forgot about the clutch and pressure plate we replaced since the engine was off.
Nearly $2500 parts and machine work about 10 years ago.

Just saying when you tear into it be prepared to spend money or cut it loose cheap.
 
(quoted from post at 10:40:43 06/26/18) my thought was it may only have a couple of cylinders actually firing allowing it to make smoke but not start. I don't have a diesel compression tester and figured the cost of a few gaskets to pull the head would be cheaper than buying one. It also had air bubbles coming out one of the vavle cover bolt holes. Guessing they are threaded thru and don't have a bottom.

Dpierce, the holes that the push rods live in are openings from the top of the head down to the crankcase. There are no openings to the combustion chambers. These holes are also the paths that the oil that is pumped to the rocker arms takes to go back down to the pump pick-up. Price a compression tester. You will be surprised. Since you plan to get a machine shop involved they are usually a very resource for getting the right rings and bearings the first time.
 
no pathway way from the pushrod cavity to the crankcase is what is making me think I have either a bad piston, or broken rings. I have had a few suggestions to pull start it, I'm not really in favor of doing that not knowing what all is broken and i don't want to make things worse than they are.
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:37 06/26/18) no pathway way from the pushrod cavity to the crankcase is what is making me think I have either a bad piston, or broken rings. I have had a few suggestions to pull start it, I'm not really in favor of doing that not knowing what all is broken and i don't want to make things worse than they are.

That is a very strange Ford 5000 motor that has no pathway to the crankcase from the rocker arms. Can you explain how they are blocked?
 
you are correct. there is a pathway from the rocker arms to the crankcase. I meant to say there shouldn't be a path from pushrod holes to combustion chambers. if smoke is getting to the crankcase I'm thinking its getting past the piston or pistons somehow.
 
I agree 100%, about spending a little money or letting it go cheap. I have a farmall m that is pretty much wore out and just happened across this 5000 and thought I would roll the dice on it. I gave $2,000 for it hoping I have plenty of leeway to get it running. it looked like these tractors bring between 5-6,000 on a few action sites. I will keep everyone posted on what I find when I get time to tear in to it.
 
I took the head off this weekend and found 4 rusty cylinders. I'm guessing that water got in thru the exhaust or the broken pre cleaner. I think new rings and rod bearings will get it back in good shape. There is no oversized stamping on the tops of the Piston does this mean they are standard? All I see on them is A-B A near the fuel tank and D by the radiator along with a nothing facing the front. There are a several nicks on the tops of them as well but nothing to bad or deep. I was planning on keeping the Pistons if the cylinders clean up ok. There isn't much of a ridge in the cylinders.if I could figure out how to attach a photo I would include a picture.
 
mvphoto19128.jpg
figured it out. This is what all the cylinder ls looked like.
 
(quoted from post at 20:35:33 07/01/18) I took the head off this weekend and found 4 rusty cylinders. I'm guessing that water got in thru the exhaust or the broken pre cleaner. I think new rings and rod bearings will get it back in good shape. There is no oversized stamping on the tops of the Piston does this mean they are standard? All I see on them is A-B A near the fuel tank and D by the radiator along with a nothing facing the front. There are a several nicks on the tops of them as well but nothing to bad or deep. I was planning on keeping the Pistons if the cylinders clean up ok. There isn't much of a ridge in the cylinders.if I could figure out how to attach a photo I would include a picture.

It is highly unlikely that pistons have ever been changed. What is a lot more likely is that bearings have been changed. When you remove the bearing insets look at the backs of them and you should see dabs of red or blue paint on them. That will be an indication.
 
thanks for the bearing tip. Most kits I have seen include pistions, rings and a upper gasket set. If the Pistons look ok and don't show a lot of wear on the sqirts should reuse them since they have worn to cylinders or use the new ones that come in the kit. I also plan to Plasti guage the rod bearings, if they check ok I plan to replace the too since I will have it appart. Also will new pistons require new pins and bushings.
 

Check piston skirts for wear and scuffing, if rings are stuck you may be able to get them loose, if you get the rings off clean the ring grooves and check for wear, if the rings move up and down in the groves much at all the pistons are no good.

New pins and locks come with new pistons, if the rod bushings are worn they must be replaced by a machine shop so they can be honed to the correct size.
 
I got the the tractor stripped down today and found that 3 of the 4 cylinders had stuck rings from moisture. The cylinders cleaned up pretty decent. Not much of a ridge on the top or bottom and not enough for the rings to get hung up on. The rod bearings look to be standard and have no size stamped in them. All I see is fomo stamp with the part number and a b2. The plastigauge shows between .0015 and .001 on all the rod caps most favor .001 is this good to run? Doesn't match the book I have but generally .001 is a good thing to see. The journals look good with no scratches and so do the bearings. Was thinking about reusing the bearings,get new rings only and a gasket set. The Pistons cleaned well too with minimal scuffing on the intake side.
mvphoto19251.jpg
 

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