Ford 860 hydrolic bleeding not working

OldFord860

New User
I've been struggling with my three point not working for a long time. I replaced all the gaskets and O-rings in the main housing (under the seat) and that helped a little.

The three point will stay up well once it is up, but it rarely goes up. When it does go up it is VERY jerky and slow.

I've been trying to bleed they hydraulics. I put a rubber hose in the bleeder valve, put the other end of the hose in a jar with a little hydraulic fluid, then started the tractor and slowly opened the valve.

As expected air and fluid came out. Unfortunately, air and fluid keep coming out. No matter how long I let it run, it never stops blowing bubbles in my jar of fluid.

Do I need to rebuild my piston pump?
 
Bled the system by running a hose from the bled plug to the hydraulic fill plug under the seat and run it till there is no air. If you never run out of air you definitely need a pump seal and maybe a shaft too.
 
(quoted from post at 19:24:22 04/05/18)
The three point will stay up well once it is up, but it rarely goes up. When it does go up it is VERY jerky and slow.

Jerky and slow do indicate pump problems.

I put a rubber hose in the bleeder valve, put the other end of the hose in a jar with a little hydraulic fluid, then started the tractor and slowly opened the valve.

Bleeder valve????
 
"Bleeder valve????"

I'm new at this. Wayne called it a bleed plug. Anyway, it is the hollow threaded port on the top of the hydraulic pump you open to bleed the hydraulics.

I'll let it blow bubbles through the hose for a while longer and see how that goes, then I'll probably wind up ordering a rebuild kit.

Thanks for your replies.
 
(quoted from post at 16:56:47 04/06/18) "Bleeder valve????"

I'm new at this. Wayne called it a bleed plug. Anyway, it is the hollow threaded port on the top of the hydraulic pump you open to bleed the hydraulics.

I'll let it blow bubbles through the hose for a while longer and see how that goes, then I'll probably wind up ordering a rebuild kit.

Thanks for your replies.
lthough the pump seals are a source of suction leaks (air), don't forget the manifold between pump and tractor transmission as well as the tube thru same all the way into hydraulic sump......they do rust out & o-rings leak.
 
Did the bubble thing and bleeding never stopped. Pulled pump apart found bad groove in pump shaft where the seal rides. Order new parts to rebuild pump.
 
On mine it seems like the bubbling stops as long as I keep the three point activation lever down. As soon as I attempt to raise the three point the bubbling starts again.

Do you think that is still the pump, or would that be a leak farther back?
 
(quoted from post at 18:14:04 04/06/18) On mine it seems like the bubbling stops as long as I keep the three point activation lever down. As soon as I attempt to raise the three point the bubbling starts again.

Do you think that is still the pump, or would that be a leak farther back?
xamining the flow diagram, I can see no reason for that.
 
Pretty sure the load from raising the 3 pt. cause's vacuum in pump and it sucks air around bad seal.
 
After more playing with it I was hopeful for a little while. I got all the air out of the lines and it worked smooth and fast ... for a while. After letting the tractor sit for a while it didn't work again. I bled the lines again and it worked great. I let it sit again and it doesn't work.

So, I'm thinking I need a hydraulic pump rebuild kit. Where are some good places I can look, and how can I be sure I get the right one?

This is a 1955 Ford 860 with a "ball bearing piston type hydraulic pump". I copied that phrase exactly out of the "Ford Tractor Shop Manual" for 1955 - 1960.
 
AND you will probably need D5NN122A (don't know how to link) bearing race since the old one has to come out to get to the seal, and a torch or welder is the easiest way to get it out.
 
As Dollar Bill posted link above. I got all my part from this site YT. They had everything needed at best price.
 
In for a penny, in for a pound. If it were me, I would get the O-rings for the manifold, pump rebuild kit, shaft, needle bearings and shaft bearing cup and cone. Leave the ball seats alone unless worn excessively.
 
(quoted from post at 12:37:44 04/10/18) In for a penny, in for a pound. If it were me, I would get the O-rings for the manifold, pump rebuild kit, shaft, needle bearings and shaft bearing cup and cone. Leave the ball seats alone unless worn excessively.

Don't forget the shaft seal!!
There is a tool to remove the ball seats, I did not get it. But I did watch a guy who rebuilt one on youtube, he dround a screw down to fit the seat and casting to drive them out. I made a longer machine screw and did what he did and it worked reel slick.
So changing the seat and balls is the way to go, than it is all new!
 
Thank you everyone for all the advice. I am just about ready to order the parts. As posted above, I believe I need these three parts:

Pump Rebuild Kit $55.13
Shaft $56.98
D5NN1202A "Hydraulic Pump Shaft Bearing Cup" $2.54

Then there were two more posts:

From Dollar Bill: needle bearings and shaft bearing cup and cone
From Oldiron29: ball seats and balls

I have the bearing cup listed above. Can someone give me the precise part name, or even better the part number from this site, for the needle bearings and code, and the ball seats and balls?
 
I found the needle bearings and cone, but was unable to find anything for sale on this site related to ball seats or balls. Does anyone know where I could find those?

Here is what I believe I need. Does this list look correct and complete?

$55.13 [u:943e304630]CCPN600AB[/u:943e304630] Ford 800 Hydraulic Pump Repair Kit

$56.98 [u:943e304630]NCA966E[/u:943e304630] Ford 800 Hydraulic Pump Shaft

$5.03 [u:943e304630]D5NN1201A[/u:943e304630] Hydraulic Pump Shaft Bearing Cone

$2.54 [u:943e304630]D5NN1202A[/u:943e304630] Hydraulic Pump Shaft Bearing Cup
 
I was unable to find anything for sale on this site related to ball seats or balls. Does anyone know where I could find those? Here is what I believe I need. Does this list look correct and complete?

Balls and seats should be included with the hydraulic pump repair kit - (Confirm when placing order).

It may be less expensive to disassemble the pump before ordering parts so you only get what you need. If you are hedging your bets by ordering everything that may be worn then you may consider adding the two items circled in red.

mvphoto16352.jpg


[b:dbe74cd931]Thrust Plate Bearing - C0NN858A[/b:dbe74cd931]
[b:dbe74cd931]Thrust Plate - NCA859A[/b:dbe74cd931]
 
I have received the four parts I ordered. I'm going to wait and see about the other two, since the thrust plate and bearings are a little more expensive than some of the other parts.

I have the pump off the tractor and my work bench cleared off. I hope to work on this tomorrow. Wish me luck.
 
I got it all done. It went pretty well. I put it back on the tractor and it does nothing. No fluid comes out of the bleeder valve, and it doesn't bubble like it did before the rebuild. Yet it is sucking fluid up from the reservoir because when I take the pump off the tractor both tubes (the tubes from the reservoir up to the bottom of the pump) are full. I let the tractor run for about 20 minutes and it did nothing.

Help.
 
Oh, I was going to say, it does make the expected sound when you turn the fly-wheel. You can hear each piston make that sucking sound you would expect.
 
No fluid comes out of the bleeder valve

Sounds like the pump isn't priming due to a possible suction side leak. Pressurize the hydraulic chest with compressed air through the dip stick hole. That should force oil up to the pump.

Be sure to let air pressure to bleed off of hydraulic sump before removing air hose or you could get showered in hydraulic oil.

This isn't a permanent repair but more like a troubleshooting step. Hopefully the leak will be as simple as a faulty O-ring seal at the manifold.
 
Well, not good. With air pressure in the tank, no hydraulic fluid comes out of the bleeder valve on the pump.

I installed the pump and primed it and left the bleeder valve off so I could see the fluid level inside the pump.

With the bleeder valve removed and the tractor running and no air pressure in the tank, the fluid in the pump slowly (very slowly) goes down.

If I apply a small amount of air pressure in the tank I can see the fluid very slowly come up to the top of the pump, but it almost never overflows. Even with more air pressure the fluid just holds steady at the top of the pump without overflowing.

With the bleeder valve installed and closed no amount of air pressure ever causes the 3-point to lift.

I even tried pressurizing the tank with the pump removed. Fluid flowed freely out of the supply-side port, so the supply to the pump seems to be fine.

It is as if the pump is preventing any fluid from flowing through it either by its own action, or by external pressure.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
If any one has any idea why fluid won't pass through my pump, or how to troubleshoot it I'd sure appreciate any advice.
 
(quoted from post at 11:09:19 06/16/18) If any one has any idea why fluid won't pass through my pump, or how to troubleshoot it I'd sure appreciate any advice.
hile I have not tried it, it would appear to me that pressure applied to the intake of pump would blow the inlet valve balls off their seats(over coming springs) and do the same for the outlet valve balls, thus allowing flow from inlet to outlet. Maybe assembled incorrectly? Inlet & outlet springs do differ.
 
(quoted from post at 16:09:19 06/16/18) If any one has any idea why fluid won't pass through my pump, or how to troubleshoot it I'd sure appreciate any advice.
Check your transmission and hydraulic fluid levels and note where they are. Take the tranny fill cap off to check that level. With the cap off apply a little air pressure to the hydraulic sump and listen for gurgling in the tranny oil . It sounds to me like the supply tube going through the tranny might be leaking. Is the weep hole in the bottom plate on the tranny open?
 
The springs are different sizes and I followed all the advice I could fine. I'm sure everything was assembled correctly.

I do now know what the "weep hole in the bottom plate on the tranny" is. Nothing like that has been touched or modified since the hydraulics were last working, so I don't think that would be the issue.

Applying air pressure to the hydraulic tank used to raise the three-point. Now it doesn't.
 

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