Pulling cam, in frame

TinCan

Member
I am thinking of pulling the cam out of my '63 4000 172 diesel. I need to find out what the cam is, because it will not time the pump right. It's a tooth off each way. I can time it if I put the pump in @ zero degrees, but not @23 degrees. Slotting the stud holes, is way to much. Both cam gears marks line up right, but the pump will not.

I do not know how the P.O. had it running? I bought it without trying to start it, after it had sat 15 plus years. It was minor stuck, so I did not turn it over before removing the head to see why.

Has anyone (I'm sure someone has) done this with the engine in the frame. I'm looking for any tips on doing this. I have pulled 100's of cams, but not one without pulling the lifters first. Sitting up right, with them in yet.

I'm thinking of putting some type of clip on each lifter to hold them up.

Thanks, Pat
 
I'd have to check in the service manual, but I don't think you can get the hydraulic pump drive gear off the back of the cam with the rear plate on the engine.
 
Agree with Ian, the cam will not come out in frame because of the hydraulic pump drive gear in the back. Bite the bullet, pull the engine
off, and then flip it upside down - it will make life much easier.

Sounds like you have a gas cam in a diesel engine. That happened to me once. Took me a while to figure that one out!
 

I didn't think of the hydraulic pump gear. Darn. What is there that I have to do to different, to split a SOS from the engine. I guess it's time to find some internet video's on it, if there is one. Going to suck, because I have to do it in the yard.

How can I tell if it is a gas cam. Is there a way to tell before splitting it.

How did he get it running with a gas cam, instead of the diesel cam in it. I do know that he had shims under the drive gear, and pump to raise it .060 which still was not enough to time it right.

Thanks, Pat
 
You answered your own question - he shimmed it. I don't know that you can ID a gas versus diesel cam simply by looking at it.

As for splitting, a SOS is actually easier to split than a tranny with a double clutch, as you only have the single input shaft.
 
(quoted from post at 07:59:43 05/14/18) Sounds like you have a gas cam in a diesel engine. That happened to me once. Took me a while to figure that one out!

NH Parts website lists the same camshaft for 801 through early 4000 diesels as it does for 801 through early 4000 gasoline engines. Same cam and crank gears. Same crankshaft. Is the website screwed up . . . or are they really all the same?
 
I *suspect* that way back in the day, the cams were actually different (at least with regards to the distributor/injection pump drive gear),
or maybe the initial run of them were different, however at some point they decided to make them all the same. All I know for sure is that
I've had the same experience before as the OP. A guy rebuilt a 172 diesel with a junkyard cam, couldn't time the pump, brought it to me, and
after much head scratching, we replaced the cam with one out of a diesel, and all was well again.
 
(quoted from post at 12:44:15 05/14/18)
(quoted from post at 07:59:43 05/14/18) Sounds like you have a gas cam in a diesel engine. That happened to me once. Took me a while to figure that one out!

NH Parts website lists the same camshaft for 801 through early 4000 diesels as it does for 801 through early 4000 gasoline engines. Same cam and crank gears. Same crankshaft. Is the website screwed up . . . or are they really all the same?
have read that cranks differ in forged vs cast and with diesels, early vs late in whether they had the gear to drive the balancer assy. True/false?
 

Hmmm! Yeah! When tin Can came with this problem, I'd wondered if he had the wrong cam, but given the numbers on the parts site matched, had poo pooed that idea.
 
(quoted from post at 22:28:08 05/14/18)
(quoted from post at 12:44:15 05/14/18)
(quoted from post at 07:59:43 05/14/18) Sounds like you have a gas cam in a diesel engine. That happened to me once. Took me a while to figure that one out!

NH Parts website lists the same camshaft for 801 through early 4000 diesels as it does for 801 through early 4000 gasoline engines. Same cam and crank gears. Same crankshaft. Is the website screwed up . . . or are they really all the same?
have read that cranks differ in forged vs cast and with diesels, early vs late in whether they had the gear to drive the balancer assy. True/false?
The cranks are different but you cant always believe what you read. I have a parts manual, I'll look it up later. Im pretty sure the diesel cams have the word diesel cast into them.
 
I think I might try to see if I could time the camshaft gear off 1 tooth. I would sit down with the numbers first before I tried that. The industrial motor crank and cam gears have more teeth and would give you more degrees to time it. I would time the left side of the pump body toward the block. Also a worn pump gear would send the pump body the other way. Does anyone know how many degrees the pump body slots give you?
 
Purposely installing the cam gear off one tooth? Sounds like a good way to get the pistons to kiss the valves. I can't speak for the 172 diesels, but I can almost assure you that would be the case on a '65-up
Ford diesel engine.
 

I have sat with the pump (hours), and moved the timing around, change teeth both ways, and I can not get it so that slotting out the bolts holes would work. The pump body would be against the block, either way I try.
I even put the shims someone added back in, and it doesn't get close enough to work.

There is 12 teeth on the pump drive gear, making it 30 degrees for every tooth I move it. But it does not work. If I put the pump in where it's suppose to be, I have to move the crank to 2-3 after top dead, to line the timing marks up. If I put the pump in at "O" TDC the timing marks line up on the pump, with just a little movement!

I have looked up the Conn-6251-A cam on her, it fits everything Buy, a diesel. Yet my Ford parts manual say's the same cam number for both gas & diesel.

My cam Does have a replacement bolt holding the cam retainer plate on (parts book doesn't show a retainer plate on it)

If I have to split it to make it right, I will. It is sitting on blocks leveling it right now. But, I don't want to just to check something that won't help fix it. I have to do it on dirt, and it won't be fun. I have a 100 year old crane, and I can move what ever I need to. Hell, I can pick up the whole tractor and more it, and the crane wouldn't grunt! LOL

I just used it to pull the cage, and engine out of the dozer.

Thanks, Pat


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If you don't end up with Bern's 'kiss the piston" situation, & the crank/cam gears are same as NAA (high likelihood), then one tooth there would yield 8.57 cam degrees or 17.14 crank degrees.
Much finer resolution than one pump drive tooth!
 
I'll preface this by saying I have absolutely no experience with this engine, but...

you speak of a gear on the pump - can you remove the gear, turn it over, and re-install it? if so, that might change the relationship of the the gears to the keyway -

just throwing out an idea...
 
I just remembered something that we came across at the dealership once. Guy brought in a 134/172 engined tractor (don't remember which now). He'd overhauled it but couldn't get it to run. Did have all new parts inside. Tech worked on it for most of a day before he found the problem. The customer or his machinist had installed the crank gear on backwards so the timing dot was on the side towards the crank not the pulley, and had followed the tooth around and re-stamped the timing dot onto the same tooth instead of correct position in relation to the key slot.
 
I've been thru this too. First thing to try is pull the inj. pump shaft and check the number on the top end. This number designates the degree the pump shaft is ground on. There are 2 or 3 or 4 different degree shafts for that pump/engine combination. If you talk with Glenn at DFS (256-657-5193), give him your pump number he can tell you which shaft you need and may be able to furnish you with the correct shaft if yours is not right.
Next, originally the diesel cam did have DIESEL cast into the cam. At one time long ago TISCO would list gas and diesel for their camshaft but later they said gas only. I believe a diesel cam will work in a gas but a gas cam may not work in a diesel.
To pull the cam you must remove the engine from the tractor and remove everything from the rear of the engine to get access to the hyd. pump gear. You could pull the oil pan and inspect the cam while turning the engine to find the casting numbers and look for the word DIESEL cast into the cam. Also you can push lifters up with a screw driver from the underside and put a clothes pin on top of the lifter to hold them above the cam so it will slide out.
Jim
 
Ya, I forgot about throwing the valve timing off. I know I have seen cams with DIESEL cast into them but Ford parts manual shows same part number for gas or diesel, look at pics, 1st pic is 53/up gas, second pic is 58/ up diesel. I have 2 cams that dont say diesel but have the same part number 310377 cast in. They dont have the part #CONN 6251-A that is in the book.
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I have 2 cams that dont say diesel but have the same part number 310377 cast in. They dont have the part #CONN 6251-A that is in the book.

The casting number is usually not the part number. They are two different things used for two different purposes. The casting number is used by the folks in the design and manufacturing process and the part number is used by the folks in the parts distribution network. A casting number is specific to one particular iteration of a design of a part that has a particular part number, and that casting number may change several times during the time that the part number itself is still in use.
 

I called Glenn at DFS, he said that the shaft I should have is a #10259. On the end of my shaft, they didn't machine it real smooth, and I put on my magnifying glass headset, and I can only make out a 10, and below that an -3. He said he didn't know anything about mine! He said that from '57 to 60? they used a different shaft,, and didn't have the removable 1 1/8" hex's on each side for the automatic advance. After that they all used a #10259, and had the automatic advance nuts. He said that he could not tell me anything about the degrees it's at, just it used a #10259 shaft.

He said that I should check the backlash in the gears to make sure there was not to much. He told me that he hears that people play with the drive gear, moving it a tooth, and try to slot the holes. Other then that, he had nothing for me. He doesn't know anything as far as the cam, or gears, he only knows about the pump it's self. He said if I send the pump to him, for $200.00 he can check the timing marks. I know that the timing marks are good already, as they can't move from their located spot.

So, it looks like it's back to what is the cam, and what should it be, and how to tell if it is right, or wrong.

Thanks, Pat
 
Its small things like this that can really bug your brain. I have to hand it to you for your perseverance. I went back and read your old post on the pump timing. I just dont know, It could be a partially sheared cam key or the wrong cam. Those tractor pull guys might have the degrees when the valves start to open. Your valve timing should tell if your cam is off. A custom grinder might have the specs.
 
You know, your oil pump entrance shaft face might have enough wear to throw that pump gear off. You can pull that hex driveshaft out with a magnet or magnetic socket ( careful they are slippery) and measure the distance from the face to the top of the gear hole. I can check an engine I have on a stand for the measurement also. Let me know if thats the plan.
 


I'll go out in a short while, and get both with & with out the gear drive in the block. I have depth mic's to get a good accurate measurement. If you could get the measurement to the top of the gear, and to the top of the gear hole surface, that would be great. I have wondered what it should be.

Thanks, Pat
 
(quoted from post at 22:03:26 05/15/18) Its small things like this that can really bug your brain. I have to hand it to you for your perseverance. I went back and read your old post on the pump timing. I just dont know, It could be a partially sheared cam key or the wrong cam.

I have to get it fixed right, I'm not one for crap work! Plus, I need to use it to mow the backyard with, and I'm getting ready to dig a new pond, using the Case dozer, and my tractor with a box blade. to finish it.

I still have the front cover loose. I'll give a closer look at the cam & crank gear keys.

Pat
 
I have a problem with a calfs belly button hernia right now, I'll get to it as soon as possible. You might just need to shim that end. Get measurements on the pump shaft to gear and pump body to block also and see how much the differences are. If the oil pump face is worn too much it would let that gear drop down and change timing. The oil pump body is cast aluminum I think.
 

Years ago a neighbor had a 59 or 60 801 diesel that broke a crank shaft, he installed a 4000 crank he found at a salvage yard.
They had a fair bit of trouble getting the engine timed and I don't remember what they finally had to do to correct it.
It was ether changing the crank gear or installing a 4000 cam and gear or changing the pump shaft but there was something different that threw off the pump timing.

Todays parts look up has all of the updated numbers so one can't see what changes were made unless someone has a old parts book.
 


Not a problem, get to it when you can. I also have 5-6 different things I'm working on at once! lol It never ends. Next I'll go check out the cam & crank gears, while I change the sector shaft packing & seals. I'm also pumping water out of a hole I dug to bury two plastic 55 gal barrels for my grey water. Every time I get it empty, it rains and fills it up again! Yesterday I was gone most the day, and the hole was the driest it has been since I dug, then it rained 1 1/4" yesterday, and it's a about 1 1/2 feet deep in it today again! Tn swamp clay is the slipperiest stuff on earth when wet! I have to planting some more veggy plants also. Wife has to stop buying them.

Here's the numbers from mine.

The pump bottom to bolt holes is: .337

The block to gear is: .363

The block to gear hole is: 2.592

2.592 - .363 makes the drive gear 2.229 tall

Thanks, Pat
 
I think were getting the measuring confused. Try turning your inj pump upside down and put the drive gear in the pump shaft slot and measure from the base of the inj pump to the bottom end of the drive gear. Then measure from the pump mounting surface of the block to the top end of your oil pump where the hex drive installs. That will give you the difference, or space, between the two. While you have your hex driveshaft out make sure its in good shape and see if someone made it out of a hex key wrench. It needs to have good edges and the ends are tapered a certain way when the factory made them, and be the right length. I know when that gear slides in the hole it moves quite a number of degrees. I have to see a man about a dog right now. I will check mine later.
 
Well, now that I know the pump drive gear doesnt sit on the oil pump and sits on the boss in the engine, I measured the distance from the boss to the top of the hole and got 2 3/4". I only had a slide rule to get that. I then measured with a digital caliper 2 different pump drive gears from the top of it to the edge that sits on the boss and got 2.23". it seems theres about a 1/2" between the two measurements. Any thoughts on that?
 
(quoted from post at 22:03:11 05/16/18)

--Well, now that I know the pump drive gear doesnt sit on the oil pump and sits on the boss in the engine, I measured the distance from the boss to the top of the hole and got 2 3/4". I only had a slide rule to get that.

---->From the block edge to the boss that the gear rides on, is 2.592 deep. + - .001 I used a depth micrometer.


--I then measured with a digital caliper 2 different pump drive gears from the top of it to the edge that sits on the boss and got 2.23".

---->Mine is 2.228 + - .0005 I used a micrometer

--It seems theres about a 1/2" between the two measurements. Any thoughts on that?

---->Mine has a gap of .363 I used a depth micrometer. The base of my pump sit's down in .337 leaving a gap between the pump, and the drive gear .028 + - .002


Thanks, Pat
 
Well The inj pump drive gears are close enough. But these two measurements are almost 1/4" off. You got right at 2.60" and I got 2.75" ( I measured the distance from the boss to the top of the hole and got 2 3/4". I only had a slide rule to get that.

---->From the block edge to the boss that the gear rides on, is 2.592 deep. + - .001 I used a depth micrometer.)
Check your engine boss to see if maybe someone glued a shim at the top of the boss so it wouldnt slip when they installed the pump. I'll check another engine to get that gear boss to top of block again. Which way does the gear turn when dropped in?
 
(quoted from post at 17:49:01 05/16/18) I noticed your missing the oil slinger on your crankshaft also. I'd fix that before i forgot it.

It has it, and a spacer tube. I had it off when I was checking the gears out.

Yesterday I pulled the front cover off again (it's on loose for right now) and looked it over again.

I checked the backlash in the crank/cam gear. The is next to none! no backlash in it.

I checked the backlash in the cam to pump drive gear. I got about 5-6 degrees backlash on the timing marks. I turn it to 10 degree mark on the timing marks, and then turn it backwards just till the gear started to move. Then read the timing marks again, it was on the 16 degree mark. I checked it 3 times, going all the way around between each time before checking it.

I have noticed that the crank gear was removed at one time also. It has marks into the crank, from when they removed the gear. It must have had a problem with something, for it to leave marks into the crank where the key is. They had to file burs/gouges off.

So I know the bolts that hold the cam in, and the gear on the crank has been removed at one time for some reason. Why, I don't know. The cam gear has some marks like it's been hit with something, not hard, but put a couple dings it. Maybe like from being put onto the cam? The inside of this engine is very clean, for it's age.

Riveroadrat, is there a way you can put your gear into your block, at 23 degrees, and take a picture of it. So that I can see just where the drive gear slot is on yours, when it's timed right for the pump to be installed. Or is yours just a empty block.

Thanks, Pat
 
Someone told me the slinger goes next to the crank gear. I first thought that it was a slinger for the front oil seal but I think it gets its oil from the tube. Ill take a pic of it, I think they are about straightline with the block. Did you check that hex shaft? The differences in our measurements are about .015. That might move your line the way you need it.
 
(quoted from post at 11:48:35 05/17/18) Well The inj pump drive gears are close enough. But these two measurements are almost 1/4" off. You got right at 2.60" and I got 2.75" ( I measured the distance from the boss to the top of the hole and got 2 3/4". I only had a slide rule to get that.

---->From the block edge to the boss that the gear rides on, is 2.592 deep. + - .001 I used a depth micrometer.)
Check your engine boss to see if maybe someone glued a shim at the top of the boss so it wouldnt slip when they installed the pump. I'll check another engine to get that gear boss to top of block again. Which way does the gear turn when dropped in?


Ok, I went out, and checked in the gear drive hole. It looks kinda like it does have a piece that was glued on. But! I checked it out with my dental tools, and there is NO step on the inside. So it had to be machined along with, when the bore was bored. I can not get my dental tool to hook anywhere around the outside edge either. It's like they did a mold change when they cast the block originally, but then it doesn't. I'm going to say it was there from the factory, unless I'm convinced otherwise. I took a few pictures to show it, but I don't know how they will show on here. It was to bright for my flash to work on my camera.

From the block edge to the lower part of the gear drive bore is 2.742. About what your getting. What year block is yours? Maybe if it's a earlier block, it may not have the extra step up, that mine has? Just a thought.

Blurry pictures, but the end of the oil pump drive shaft is tapered. It's not home made.

Thanks, Pat



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(quoted from post at 11:48:35 05/17/18) Well The inj pump drive gears are close enough. But these two measurements are almost 1/4" off. You got right at 2.60" and I got 2.75" ( I measured the distance from the boss to the top of the hole and got 2 3/4". I only had a slide rule to get that.

---->From the block edge to the boss that the gear rides on, is 2.592 deep. + - .001 I used a depth micrometer.)
Check your engine boss to see if maybe someone glued a shim at the top of the boss so it wouldnt slip when they installed the pump. I'll check another engine to get that gear boss to top of block again. Which way does the gear turn when dropped in?



Ok, I went out, and checked in the gear drive hole. It looks kinda like it does have a piece that was glued on. But! I checked it out with my dental tools, and there is NO step on the inside. So it had to be machined along with, when the bore was bored. I can not get my dental tool to hook anywhere around the outside edge either. It's like they did a mold change when they cast the block originally, but then it doesn't. I'm going to say it was there from the factory, unless I'm convinced otherwise. I took a few pictures to show it, but I don't know how they will show on here. It was to bright for my flash to work on my camera.

From the block edge to the lower part of the gear drive bore is 2.742. About what your getting. What year block is yours? Maybe if it's a earlier block, it may not have the extra step up, that mine has? Just a thought.

Blurry pictures, but the end of the oil pump drive shaft is tapered. It's not home made.

Thanks, Pat


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Hmm, That's different, it posted copies of a couple of pictures, and skipped a second picture of the oil pump drive. Oh, well.

Pat
 
(quoted from post at 12:16:17 05/17/18) Someone told me the slinger goes next to the crank gear. I first thought that it was a slinger for the front oil seal but I think it gets its oil from the tube. Ill take a pic of it, I think they are about straightline with the block. Did you check that hex shaft? The differences in our measurements are about .015. That might move your line the way you need it.

Being straight with the block, is not really right. My gear drive is straight with the block, but the pump shaft is turned lightly. Nothing inside the pump can change that. I have gone through my pump intensely, it can not change. So the that's where the cam being off comes in.

The gear drive has to sit at the angle that my pump shaft is at. The gear drive in the block, should be at about 3:30 & 9:30 (maybe a little more). looking at the top, the right (front of engine) should be away from the block


The picture of my block. The pump drive gear is to straight across. We're only talking 26 degrees off, but it's a lot as far as to timing it right!

Thanks, Pat

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I hurt my back the other day and its still out. I took pics of the timing and gear position. I couldnt find the numbers. I think I was looking at the wrong face. I put a chisel mark but before I got on here I always timed to 18. I forgot to measure the distance. Heres also the book pics.
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Sorry to hear about your back, I can relate, but not today. Knock on wood!

Looks pretty much the same as mine. Mine is at 23 degrees. If I set mine at "0" (TDC) my pump will drop in with the timing marks match.

Could you post a picture of the pump shaft, with the timing marks matched up. Also the DBG number on the side. Mine is a DBGVCC429-7AJ. (for a 144)

Should be a 8AJ, which is for a 172, but the guy I talked to at the pump rebuild place, said that the only difference was the fuel pressure, but since mine was rebuilt by a pump place, (say's remanufactured inside on the hydraulic pump) it most likely was adjusted for a 172

I know the guy at the pump rebuild place said I need a pump shaft with the number 10259 stamped on the end. But it's the only other thing left to check. If you do take a picture of the shaft timed, would you mind to pull the shaft, and check the number on the end.

I know I have been asking a lot of you, but you have been a big help, eliminating a lot of "could it be" questions. And I DO appreciate all the help! Boy do I need it!!!

What state are you in. I'm in east Tn, by the Ky border. Is has been thundering since before noon. It gave a down pour for about 10 min, about 20 minuets ago, then only been a light rain, but quit now. But the thundering is still going on.

Thanks, Pat
 

Anyone else have any idea's, you can jump in at anytime! I'm open to any suggestions.

Thanks, Pat
 
Im in central Florida, were getting a lot of rain this week. Im convinced its something internal to the pump because it should line up with the shaft horizontal. I've got Dieseltechs number on a bill, I'll call him.
 
I just called Dieseltech and he said that he has had to check the different shafts before with a straightedge to confirm angle. Hes at a swap meet in Indiana right now and wont be back at his shop for a day or two to look at his shafts. Did you look at the small part of the shaft where its designed to break if the pump siezes. He has seen some twist a little but not break. He said you can call him and give him your number and he can then call you back after he checks. His cell is 574-835-329
 

I asked where your pump shaft was compare to mine in the picture, because I saw in a post, that RBnSC had a pump sitting in a picture he posted about something else. I asked him where his was when he turned the pump marks to line up, and he said it looked turned just like mine.

That's what got me to thinking it "was" the pump drive gear/cam assembly that was off.

I will check my shaft for any sign of movement.

I'll give Dieseltech, some time to get back home.

Thanks, Pat
 
(reply to post at 00:27:38 05/18/18) Heres what the manual shows at 18. I think your cam and crank timing are good. Something in that pump is different thats why the previous owner had it shimmed up top. Everyone else also said it should be like the manual shows. Whats the casting date on your block? The diesels came out in '58. I cant seem to load this pic at present.
 

My pump is a 9A543H It is to be timed at 23.

My block is a CONN 6015J Which means it's a '62 -'65 172 Diesel or Gas block. The only years they made a CONN 6015J block. From what I've read.

Thanks, Pat
 
My block is a CONN 6015J Which means it's a '62 -'65 172 Diesel or Gas block. The only years they made a CONN 6015J block. From what I've read.

The "C0" at the beginning of the casting number means that the casting was designed in 1960. Hard to believe that they waited a whole 2 years to start using a new casting design. I guess with the J suffix it could have been one designed near the end of the year, and then it would have only been a little over a year to start using it in the beginning of 1962, but even that seems a little long to me.
 

I could not tell you. It is what I read on here, from a thread from 2010.

I think riveroadrat was wondering, because the 1/8" or so, difference in the depth that our pump drive gear sits.

Pat
 

Looking at yours, it looks closer to 9 & 3 then mine does. Mine looks more like 9:30 & 3:30. Yours looks more like what I need mine to be. Mine is only about 25 degrees off.

I looked at my drive shaft, and to me it doesn't look twisted at all.

Thanks, Pat
 
(quoted from post at 19:05:33 05/19/18)
Looking at yours, it looks closer to 9 & 3 then mine does. Mine looks more like 9:30 & 3:30. Yours looks more like what I need mine to be. Mine is only about 25 degrees off.

I looked at my drive shaft, and to me it doesn't look twisted at all.

Thanks, Pat
Well, I had puter troubles but my son fixed it. Did you get in touch with Dieseltech? I have another block I can check if you need me to, might be tuesday. I am interested in what he has to say. I think the pump body I had on a 4bt Cummins looked the same but had a different base.
 

Computer problems? I would think mine is screwed up if I didn't have a problem! Every time I turn mine on, I have to hit F1, enter, enter, F10, enter, Then it will boot up! I have no idea why.


No, I have not called Dieseltech yet. I thought that I would let him get home from the swap meet, then give him a day or so. I was going to call him yesterday, but I started to clean up in a room with the wife, and it opened that can of worms, that lasted all day! I hate doing it because it usually takes a lot more time then you want. I'll finish it to day. cotf

I'm thinking it's the pump shaft again. Even though it does not look twisted, (still could be) I think something is wrong with it. Twisted, or the wrong one. I would not think a "CC" pump, and a "C" shaft would be the same. Could be, but.

The place I called said it suppose to have 10259 stamped on the inside end. I can only read a 10, and under that, a -3. All the rest of the numbers didn't stamp. He said that he had no idea what was stamped on mine, but it needs to be 10259.

After looking at the picture of Ron's, it does look a little different then mine. It's only a small amount that knocks it off timing.

Do you have a "DBGVCC" pump with the shaft in it, or do you just have a shaft that I could borrow, to see if it allows me to see, if it will sit in, and allow it to time it right.

Does anyone, have a shaft I could borrow to see if it works right. If it does work right, then would you sell it.

Thanks, Pat
 
(quoted from post at 19:46:23 05/18/18)
I could not tell you. It is what I read on here, from a thread from 2010.

Here's what John Smith's page on identifying old Ford tractors said about that casting number (Still available on the internet archive site):

C0NN-6015J - 172 late 1960-1964
 
Dieseltech will know, just call him. I have timed quite a few of these pumps and never had a problem. I have a DBGVCC pump but I havent got around to pulling it yet. I also have a manual that tells the codes on the pump. I'll pick it up later from my son. You know everything is time relative.
 

I called Dieseltech today, He has been reading the threads I have about it, and he was wondering what's not right in the pump. I do not have the funds right now to send him the pump, and have him basically rebuild, adjust it for me. So I am sending him the shaft, so that he can check it, and see if anything is wrong with it, or if it's the wrong one. I sure do hope there is! It would be the cheapest way out. It's the direct solid connection to the governor timing mark. The governor timing mark is the bottom timing mark, which is off to the right of the center of the window. If the shaft is right, I would have to think it has be something with the timing mark on the governor in the wrong place. Or the wrong governor plate, if that can happen.

Now it will be a waiting game. I have to send it off to him, then when he can get time to check, and then??? I'll find out. I will post anything I find out, when I find out.

Riveroadrat, thanks for all the help, and thanks to everyone else that has helped also.

I'll be bock!

Thanks, Pat
 

Know I'll have to work on that dad burn piece o-crap Case dozer! ARRRR, If only it was only as much hassle as my pump!
Just try to look up rings for a 3.965 bore, bearings, gaskets, and cam & bearings for a transplanted '74 Case 201 gas.

Pat
 
You know, I've been saying that quote for years. I also know who else said it. Now isnt it a small world. I hope its something with the pump thats your problem, at least you can get the pump out of your head for a while. My father had a pump that he took apart and down at the bottom of the housing it looked like something had twisted and gouged out some of the bottom. Did yours look OK ?
 
(quoted from post at 18:27:51 05/21/18)
If the shaft is right, I would have to think it has be something with the timing mark on the governor in the wrong place. Or the wrong governor plate, if that can happen.

OOH! Now you're comment about the governor itself sparked a thought I hadn't had previously. This same basic pump was used in 4, 6 & 8 (and maybe more that I'm not aware of) cylinder engines. All three were really common variations. What if someone who didn't know any better borrowed the governor out of a 6 or 8 cylinder engine? I'd think timing marks would certainly be in different locations on the 6 anyway.
 
I just talked with Williams diesel service in Ocala, Florida. He said they had a tool that they put the piece with the timing mark in and it tells them where the mark should be.
 

Hmm, now my pump was rebuilt by a company. Inside it say's REMFRD on the hydraulic head. It's a thought, but maybe they did put the wrong governor plate in it. If the shaft comes back good, it will be my next check! The governor has the timing on the lower plate. Someone could have grabbed the wrong one, when reassembling it.

Before, and after pictures of when I took it apart and cleaned it up. Also a picture of it apart, getting ready to clean it all.

It has to be wrong somewhere, Just finding it kinda sucks now. But getting to the end of where it could be.

Thanks, guys
Pat


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I was going throgh the Roosamaster repair manual and there is a remark in there that says not to handle the rotor shaft. Im wondering why not, maybe stuff from your finger oils might etch it. I guess it means to wear rubber gloves.
 

I do wear them, I take care of my wife's feeding tube, so her insurance supplies me with many of them. Besides I wear them with most oily and greasy stuff I do. I also coated every part of the pump, with "slimy turtle puke" (STP) when I assembled it.

Thanks, Pat
 
I use clear engine assembly lube to insatll those pump shaft seals. It makes them go in easy but the first time I tried it I put it all over them and it made it hard to install on the pump shaft. They were like a greased pig.
 
Heres a former post by agjim. agjim
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Joined: 13 Sep 2011
Posts: 153
Location: Leesburg, Alabama

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:07 am Post subject: Re: One More Diesel 172 Question for someone smarter than... Reply to specific post Reply with quote
I agree on retarded timing OR low compression. As for the retarded timing, did you check the timing thru the timing window on the pump and the mark on the flywheel? If the marks will not align at the proper timing degree, they make 3 or 4 diffreent driveshafts for that pump with different degree markings. You may have the wrong shaft.
 

I will do that. I have not sent it off yet. I have called Richard a couple of times, and not been able to get him. It is memorial weekend. So I will call him after the weekend. I want to ask him if he also has the gauge you were talking about, to check the timing mark on the governor plate. If he does, I'll send that plate along with.

Thanks, Pat
 

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