I am getting ready to try to start my ford 4400, I have drained and cleaned the tank, new fuel filter and blown out the lines to the injectors . With new fuel I was wondering if there is a way to prime the pump and bleed to the injectors. This has the 3 cyl diesel . Someone long ago said to loosen the injector lines and run the starter till fuel comes out.Is there a better way ? I would rather not strain the starter motor. Is there a manual primer on the pump? Thanks for any guidance.
- Thread starter 59chevy36
- Start date
Deutz Lover
Member
59chevy36,
These systems are gravity fed with the feed pump an integral part of the rotary pump. This serves as the lift pump found on in-line pump.
1. There should be a place at the top of the fuel filter to bleed it. You want to open this until fuel flows out, then close it.
Before bleeding the pump it may be necessary to push the stop lever in.
2. There should be two bleed bleed screws on the rotary pump body. One is at the injector pipe exits. The second is on the outboard side of the rear of the pump body. Bleed the outboard screw first, Then bleed the plug/screw at the injector pipe exits.
Bleed each system until there are no bubbles. Once you have done this crack open the injector pipe nuts a little. Set the throttle lever to full. If you have bled the system correctly it should not take many revolutions for diesel to start flowing out around the injector nuts. Once this happens you can close the injector pipe nuts. Note: once this occurs set the throttle lever to idle. You don't want the engine to go wild.
Once again after bleeding the injectors set the throttle back to idle before cranking.
If you cannot get fuel out at each step repeat the previous sequence. It may be necessary to loosen the main pipe entering the pump and bleed it. If it cranks, but does not run quite right sequentially crack/loosen each injector pipe nut and then close it off.
I have not checked it, but it is possible that fuel might flow out the injector pipe nuts if left for a while. I would go check this theory out, but it is dark out now.
These systems are gravity fed with the feed pump an integral part of the rotary pump. This serves as the lift pump found on in-line pump.
1. There should be a place at the top of the fuel filter to bleed it. You want to open this until fuel flows out, then close it.
Before bleeding the pump it may be necessary to push the stop lever in.
2. There should be two bleed bleed screws on the rotary pump body. One is at the injector pipe exits. The second is on the outboard side of the rear of the pump body. Bleed the outboard screw first, Then bleed the plug/screw at the injector pipe exits.
Bleed each system until there are no bubbles. Once you have done this crack open the injector pipe nuts a little. Set the throttle lever to full. If you have bled the system correctly it should not take many revolutions for diesel to start flowing out around the injector nuts. Once this happens you can close the injector pipe nuts. Note: once this occurs set the throttle lever to idle. You don't want the engine to go wild.
Once again after bleeding the injectors set the throttle back to idle before cranking.
If you cannot get fuel out at each step repeat the previous sequence. It may be necessary to loosen the main pipe entering the pump and bleed it. If it cranks, but does not run quite right sequentially crack/loosen each injector pipe nut and then close it off.
I have not checked it, but it is possible that fuel might flow out the injector pipe nuts if left for a while. I would go check this theory out, but it is dark out now.
Deutz Lover
Member
I have never bleed a rotary pump system from scratch after a complete purge. It might be advantageous to crack/loosen the injector pipe nuts at the injectors before you even start to bleed the system. This will give air an additional escape route up until the time you need to bleed them.
Update and more questions. Well didn't get to try the pump as the starter was binding, took it to the rebuilder and looks better, tried it again bad battery, new battery starter acts dead, may be the switch so used the meter and looks like low vtg to solenoid. ,so I made a jumper sswitch and tried it, starter tries to turn but binds then smoke.So could the engine be seized? Would pulling the injectors to releve the compression be a good idea.I don't see any way to turn over motor other than a bar on the flywheel teeth. Help wanted. Thanks
Deutz Lover
Member
I just read your posts from an earlier posting so I am not sure it will work with a shuttle shift. I am going to post it anyway since I spent a little time
writing it. Does the shuttle shift disengage completely from the engine when in neutral? I have no idea what the arrangement is. Could the shuttle shift be locking up the engine? I think someone familiar with this type of tranny needs to chime in.
You said it has been some time since the tractor has been run. You might possibly have rust in the the cylinders. If gently using the pry bar technique does not budge the engine you need to pull the injectors and add a little lubricant after you check the oil and it's level for water. Was this tractor sheltered while it set up?
Here is what I wrote earlier, but it may not work since you have a shuttle shift.
If your 4400 has a standard transmission you can test the engine by jacking up one rear wheel. Put the shifts in the highest gear and rotate the raised rear wheel forward. Make sure the differential lock is not on before you do this. Normally the raised wheel is the one that will rotate the engine. Be sure to turn the fuel off and pull out the engine stop before doing this. You also might want to pull the starter off if it is binding.
and use a pry bar, but this might damage the teeth if you are not careful. I do this if the starter is easy to remove, but
I think the high gear and rotating the wheel might give you more torque, but I have not calculated it.
writing it. Does the shuttle shift disengage completely from the engine when in neutral? I have no idea what the arrangement is. Could the shuttle shift be locking up the engine? I think someone familiar with this type of tranny needs to chime in.
You said it has been some time since the tractor has been run. You might possibly have rust in the the cylinders. If gently using the pry bar technique does not budge the engine you need to pull the injectors and add a little lubricant after you check the oil and it's level for water. Was this tractor sheltered while it set up?
Here is what I wrote earlier, but it may not work since you have a shuttle shift.
If your 4400 has a standard transmission you can test the engine by jacking up one rear wheel. Put the shifts in the highest gear and rotate the raised rear wheel forward. Make sure the differential lock is not on before you do this. Normally the raised wheel is the one that will rotate the engine. Be sure to turn the fuel off and pull out the engine stop before doing this. You also might want to pull the starter off if it is binding.
and use a pry bar, but this might damage the teeth if you are not careful. I do this if the starter is easy to remove, but
I think the high gear and rotating the wheel might give you more torque, but I have not calculated it.
Deutz Lover
Member
I just read a little on shuttle shifts. Bypassing the system and directly using a jumper to operate the solenoid may not work if the high low is in the wrong position and possibly other things. I would check out how the system works before attempting to jumper the starter again or even using a pry bar on the starter.
Thank you. I was looking at it tonight and thought about the shuttle shift. It appears to be in neutral. I put some marvel mistery oil in to soak and was gona crawl under and see if there is a trans cover to see about turning the engine. I had posted in my earlier post but it was so far back I posted again thanks for the response. When the starter is out I can see the flywheel but don't want to break a tooth.
Deutz Lover
Member
Pardon my ignorance. What is a WD? Maybe I am so old I have forgotten.
Wiring diagram. Sorry I am used to using abbreviation's PS CRT HDA Any way I let the oil soak overnight and tried to start again. No help ,but the fan moves a little. Will pull the starter Frida and try the prybar plan. oil looks clean and the radiator is full . hoping its just surface rust in the cyl.
Is there a way to mark this post so it is easier to find?
Is there a way to mark this post so it is easier to find?
Well that didn't go like I hoped . Got the starter out and tried the big screwdriver in the flywheel.locked... Tried both ways and it is stuck, I wonder if pulling the head would be the next steep? Could I tap the pistons with a mallet to free them up or try to get a bar in the front of the crank where the pump connects and see if that would move it?
Destroked 450
Well-known Member
- Location
- Harned, Ky
Pull the injectors and see if you can turn the engine, a cylinder could be full on have it hydro locked.
Deutz Lover
Member
Wow! If the fan moved a little that is good. It means the crankshaft rotated a little. That is better than most locked engines. Now is the time to pull the injectors and see if the cylinders are clear like Destroked said.
You may have to squirt a little penetrating oil in the injector holes and let it sit a while. You do need to make sure that enough gets in or does not end in the bowl, but on the cylinder walls. You may have to use a bent small plastic tube Actually if you make up some home brew penetrating fluid (don't use any water based at this stage) it is cheap.
Then you should not have to remove it if the injectors are removed.
You may have to squirt a little penetrating oil in the injector holes and let it sit a while. You do need to make sure that enough gets in or does not end in the bowl, but on the cylinder walls. You may have to use a bent small plastic tube Actually if you make up some home brew penetrating fluid (don't use any water based at this stage) it is cheap.
Then you should not have to remove it if the injectors are removed.
Deutz Lover
Member
It does sound like there is a little surface rust or else the pistons would not have moved.
Deutz Lover
Member
I forgot to add this. Pull the valve cover and make sure the valves are at the right position for each cylinder (not stuck). You might want to spray a little penetrating oil on them after you see if there is any rust on the valve train on top.
Destroked 450
Well-known Member
- Location
- Harned, Ky
Had the thermastart go bad on a neighbors 3000, filled the cylinders full of fuel and hydra locked the engine.
Everyone was telling him it'd have to be rebuilt until I pulled the inj and shot fuel up into his hay loft when I bumped the starter over.
That why I'm recommending you pull the inj before taking the head off, it's also a good idea to pull the valve cover to check for any stuck valves.
Deutz Lover
Member
I propose a method of testing the valves for a sticking valve. It is not fool proof because if a valve is at full compression it may not be compressed any more. Using a piece of 3/4 x 1-1/2 x about 6-12 inches as a buffer gently tap each rocker arm. You should be able to feel if the valve compresses. If a valve is at full compression you may have to just wait or loosen the valve a little to see if it moves up. Of course do not do this if you are not accustomed to setting valve clearances.
Also make sure all push rods are in proper position under their rocker arms.
Also make sure all push rods are in proper position under their rocker arms.
Deutz Lover
Member
I left out a word. I meant that a 3/4 x 1-1/2 x 6-12 inch piece of hardwood should be used as a buffer and lightly tapped with a hammer. If it is a stuck valve it would more than likely be one that is fully or mostly compressed, but the rocker arm would be loose. So also press down on the rocker arms on the push rod side to make sure they are all in battery.
Since I cannot edit my previous post, it would probably be better to check the push rod/rocker arm clearance rather than use the wooden block method. This would remove the chance of tapping the rocker arms with too much vigor.
Since I cannot edit my previous post, it would probably be better to check the push rod/rocker arm clearance rather than use the wooden block method. This would remove the chance of tapping the rocker arms with too much vigor.
I have the injectors out .Wanted to reduce the compression when I tried to spin it.Wish I had one of those cameras on a pipe to look in side the cyl.Will pull the valve cover later today. There is a cover on the otherside of the engine with what looks like the cam drive gear ,thinking to try to move the cam also to see where the bind is.
Destroked 450
Well-known Member
- Location
- Harned, Ky
Pry against the flywheel, you have better leverage there.
got the tractor up and wheels off the ground, put it in forward and hi spun both wheels freely.probably the automatic has no direct drive to flywheel. Got the valve cover off and all looks well.no evidence of water damage. gona take a break and think up a new plan... any ideas let me know. enjoy the evening.
Deutz Lover
Member
59chevy36,
For the benefit of the inexperienced. (like I once was)
On a regular transmission if one rear wheel (with a rear wheel drive) is raised the stationary wheel will have no drive power as it is a function of the differential. That is why it is so easy to get a rwd stuck in mud/snow unless you have positraction, limited slip, or a differential lock. Instead of power being transferred equally all power is transferred to the spinning wheel.
The first time I saw this I was about 19 and I thought the axle or pinion was broke on the stationary wheel. I have heard of people selling their cars thinking this was the situation. Probably 98% of the readers here already know this, but I did not at the the time. lol
I don't know how power is transferred to the rear on a shuttle shift.
For the benefit of the inexperienced. (like I once was)
On a regular transmission if one rear wheel (with a rear wheel drive) is raised the stationary wheel will have no drive power as it is a function of the differential. That is why it is so easy to get a rwd stuck in mud/snow unless you have positraction, limited slip, or a differential lock. Instead of power being transferred equally all power is transferred to the spinning wheel.
The first time I saw this I was about 19 and I thought the axle or pinion was broke on the stationary wheel. I have heard of people selling their cars thinking this was the situation. Probably 98% of the readers here already know this, but I did not at the the time. lol
I don't know how power is transferred to the rear on a shuttle shift.
Sean in PA
Well-known Member
Only raise one rear wheel in the air, not both. If both are in the air then you are not imparting any force to the transmission when you spin one of the wheels, as the differential will just cause to the other wheel to spin in the opposite direction. You could get a helper and try to spin both rear tires in the same direction at the same time to overcome the differential, but it is much easier to simply raise only one wheel off the ground and spin that one and the ground will keep the other one from spinning and the energy from spinning the raised wheel will have nowhere else to go but into the transmission.
I am not sure whether torque converter will impart any energy from the transmission into the engine though, but spinning the rear wheels with both of them raised doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
Deutz Lover
Member
59chevy36,
I have one of those inspection cameras. Mine will fit deep enough into the injector recess to see the general condition of the pistons, but not deep enough to look around. It did help me determine that my new to me 4000 did not have a hole in the piston or broken ring, but a dry cylinder and bad injector. New injectors and most of the problem was fixed. It did beat taking off the cylinder head.
I think most of these cameras are like this unless the lens is a fisheye. Avoid using the adapters that go on the end (happened using a gas spark plug hole). They can fall off and it takes forever to get them out. Maybe some have a positive attachment method, but mine did not.
I have one of those inspection cameras. Mine will fit deep enough into the injector recess to see the general condition of the pistons, but not deep enough to look around. It did help me determine that my new to me 4000 did not have a hole in the piston or broken ring, but a dry cylinder and bad injector. New injectors and most of the problem was fixed. It did beat taking off the cylinder head.
I think most of these cameras are like this unless the lens is a fisheye. Avoid using the adapters that go on the end (happened using a gas spark plug hole). They can fall off and it takes forever to get them out. Maybe some have a positive attachment method, but mine did not.
Thanks, I thought I was clever with both up. I was doing it with one wheel off and it spun freely so I thought use the axel lock and it didn't turn so I thought putting both up may be better. A plus is now the tires wont flat spot. Still think pulling the head is next move but the weather is moving in so that may wait
Well I am back. Finally had a break with the weather and was looking at the tractor again.I took off the front grill and there is a shaft going to the hyd pump from the engine, got it loose and the pump is free, There is a big nut on the crank holding on the pulley , I wonder if I could put a socket and bar on that and try to spin the engine. problem is getting the shaft out of the way.It moved forward on the pump about 1/8 in but that isn't enough room to get it out of the way.Is there a way to get it out or is removing the pump the next steep? looks like 2 big bolts on the rear of the pump hold it to the frame. Is there a picture of the mounting ? anyway I will keep looking at it . The shaft is one piece and looks like it slides on the pump.
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