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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Injector pump drive gear

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TinCan

04-15-2018 17:11:05




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I have a '63 4000 with a 172 diesel.
I would like to know if someone could tell me what, the thickness is suppose to be of the shim, that's under the injector pump drive gear.
I have searched, and can't find out anything about it. It does not show it, or talk about it, in the parts book, or the service manual.
Thanks, Pat


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TinCan

05-13-2018 04:31:55




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I have heard that others have had the same problem, after they have changed to a new cam. I have read, and been told to elongate the bolt slots to get it to time.
What do you think about doing that. I would rather fix what ever is wrong, but no one can tell me what to fix. I'm not going to replace the cam. It would be a lot of work with the engine in the tractor. From what I hear, I may just end up with the same problem again!
I'd rather not elongate them, but if it's what I need to do, then I guess, I'll have to. Doesn't seem right though.
Pat
Pat

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TinCan

05-10-2018 08:14:57




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Still looking for any idea's on how to fix my problem with it. Anyone?
Thanks, Pat



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Larry NCKS

05-06-2018 16:49:38




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Sorry! Dunno! Not my day to keep track of him. :lol: :lol: :lol:



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TinCan

05-06-2018 16:45:23




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Larry,
Is jdemaris still around? I can't find any recent postings in the last 3 yrs by him anywhere.
Pat



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TinCan

05-06-2018 16:20:18




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Ok, Thanks for your help.
Here's the pictures of the governor ring showing the clockwise, and counter clockwise arrows anyways.
Any other Diesel injection pump guys out there, have any idea as to what's wrong, and how to fix it?
Thanks, Pat





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Larry NCKS

05-06-2018 12:45:37




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
If you're certain the orientation is correct, that's all I need to know. And with that, I have no more ideas for you. Sorry!



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TinCan

05-06-2018 05:07:45




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
It does have a clockwise, and a counter clockwise to the ring. It has a arrow on each side showing which side is which. The arrow has to be going the way that the driveshaft is going, when looing at the input end.
It does make a difference on the lobs inside, but doesn't change the timing mark. Is that what you mean by orientation?
But it does not change the driveshaft, when it is changed. Driveshaft is fixed timed to the centrifugal governor, and transfer pump. Either the distributor rotor (times the governor mark), or the driveshaft are the only things locating the driveshaft tang on the end.
The driveshaft can go in either way, but it would put the timing marks to the engine gear 180 off. It has a punch mark on the shaft to tell which way it goes in the pump.
I'll go out, and take a picture of each side, and post them, showing the difference.
Thanks, Pat

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Larry NCKS

05-06-2018 00:05:18




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
It still seems to me that the cam ring has both Counter Clockwise and Clockwise orientations in the Roosa pumps. I haven't heard an answer as to whether its orientation is proper if that is true.



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TinCan

05-05-2018 17:16:58




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Another edit:

The two holes in the first picture, the top hole is the "governor advance bolt" hole, and the bottom hole is the "bolt" hole. Not the way I said it in the first post.
Pat



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TinCan

05-05-2018 17:05:46




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
In picture # 5, you can see the fuel inlet at the bottom, which is inline with the casing to show the offset of the shaft.
Pat



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TinCan

05-05-2018 17:01:42




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Ok, I got my seal kit, and went to town putting it back together. It is still the same. My question is, is there more then one driveshaft for these? If so, are the ends clocked the same?
In my pictures I have put everything together without the casing. The two holes in the first picture, the top hole is the bolt hole, and the bottom hole is the governor advance bolt hole. Both are inline with each other as they are suppose to be.
Picture two shows them with the casing on.
Picture three shows the timing marks lined up, as they would be in the casing, and on center of the window.
Picture four is after I picked up the cage and flipped the governor timing ring over. It makes no difference, the timing makes line up the same!
Picture five shows how the driveshaft is turned, to the same place it was before I started this. (See picture with casing on, in earlier posting)
Picture six show the different offset in the tow drive ends, which is what I can only think is not right.
What do you think? There is nothing I can change inside to make it right. Flipping the advance ring does nothing, it sits the same both ways.
I have first done all this with the casing on. It came up the same.
What are your thoughts on this. I need help to get this fixed right.
Thanks, Pat











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TinCan

04-26-2018 14:17:51




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Larry, thanks kind words.
I went out and beat the crap out of it. Nothing. After awhile I decided to quit for awhile. I went and worked on my car instead. When I was going in, I decided to hit it hard. Nope, didn't budge. I put the allen wrench and give it help, Snap, oh crap... No wait it turn out clean, not a problem.
After I was able to talk the hydraulic head off, and check things as I went. I could not find anything wrong. the centrifugal governor was on the rotor shaft correct. I was thinking it would have been on backwards, but nope, it was on right. I do not know how the drive shaft was in it, if it could have been in 180 off. Don't know, it will be right going back together though!
But the rubber thing on the bottom of the centrifugal governor was toast. You can see it in the first picture. The second picture is after I cleaned it up.
So now it sit's till I can get a complete seal kit for it. It will come with everything needed to reassemble it again. Then I can put it back on, and see if it everything sit's & times right. I sure hope so.
Thanks, Pat



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Larry NCKS

04-26-2018 08:42:21




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
[quote="TinCan"](quoted from post at 06:10:45 04/26/18 Sorry about your wife. May the Great Physician touch her in a mighty way!

Those advance studs can be very stubborn. You won't break the advance cam. Using a tool that fits the stud properly, you shouldn't break it either, but I have seen it happen on bristol where an improper tool was used.



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TinCan

04-26-2018 04:10:45




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I thank you for your help. I will have to get it out one way or another. Sending it to a shop is not in my financial situation. My wife's medical situation (a surgeons F-up paralyzed her stomach) has to come first, because our insurance won't pay for some of her meds, & needs, because she is over the age of 5!!! Figure that out.
But that is not anyone else's problem, but the reason I have to do almost everything I do, myself.
If trying to remove it breaks the advance cam ring, or advance stud, which I am trying hard not to do, I will have to deal with that, if it happens, but I hope not. It would be cheaper for me to replace those parts, then sending it to a shop. I have no problem in fixing what's wrong with this pump, and resealing it.
Repairing anything in this pump is a LOT easier then trying to find out what engine, I pulled out of my neighbor's Case dozer, so that I can rebuild it for him. Because of the help, and knowledge of the people on this site!!!
I have heated the cam ring the best I can, and I made a hex wrench socket for my hammer impact screwdriver, and hit it pretty hard, with no luck yet. I stopped yesterday, so that I would not break it. But today I will try again, and hope for the best.

Does anyone have a used advance ring, or advance stud cheap, incase if I do break it?
This tractor has fought me on every step of rebuilding it. But I Will win, and get everything totally fix, so that I can use it. And looking good again.

After this is fixed, I will be replacing the SOS filter, and clean out all the gunk in the bottom of the case! lol (does anyone have a wall I can beat my head on. lol I think I need to see a doc about this.)
Thanks, Pat

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Dieseltech

04-26-2018 14:47:29




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-26-2018 04:10:45  
Glad you got it apart, but be careful when striking any cam screw head. Cam rings CAN be broken/cracked at the screw threads, making the cam ring into a paper weight..



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Destroked 450

04-25-2018 19:28:45




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I can't help you on that, your farther into the pump than I've ever been, Anything beyond the umbrella seals and timing advance I send mine to a pump shop.



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TinCan

04-25-2018 10:57:47




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I guess I have been calling the "cam advance stud" The wrong thing. It's not the bristle! Bristle is the type bit to use. But mine takes a hex wrench to remove it.
Ok, how much torque can I put on the cam advance bolt without breaking it? I have put some good amount of torque on it, and it does not want to come loose.
It has right hand threads, correct.
Anyone have a trick to get it loose.
I'm stuck till I get it removed. Thanks, Pat

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TinCan

04-24-2018 15:56:26




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Hmm, Looks like I'm going to learn how to take it apart, and check it out, and reassemble it. Should be no problem, and typical for this tractor. everything I have check out, needed to be fixed.
But I will get this thing fixed, painted, and running good again! Just not tomorrow. lol (still need a valve rocker)
I'll keep you posted as what I find.
Thanks, Pat



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Larry NCKS

04-24-2018 15:01:43




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
timing marks should be near the center. Makes me wonder what happens in a Roosa pump if the cam (not the engine camshaft) get installed backwards????



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TinCan

04-24-2018 12:34:45




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Correction to line four!
when I put the drive straight inline with the mounting bolt holes, the mark is way to the right side of the window (It is not to the right, the mark is center with the drive shaft almost inline with the mounting bolt holes.)
Then when I match the timing mark to it, the bristle is way to far to the right for any kind of shimming. Pat



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TinCan

04-24-2018 12:25:47




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Ok, after I switched them, it changed nothing. So I was looking it over, and I have 2 question.
First, when the timing marks are inline, where do they usually end up in the window? towards the left side, center, or towards the right side of the window?
What would make the governor mark be towards the right side of the window? Assuming it should be near center.
when I put the drive straight inline with the mounting bolt holes, the mark is way to the right side of the window. Then when I match the timing mark to it, the bristle is way to far to the right for any kind of shimming. The first picture is when I turn the drive shaft to match the timing marks
The second picture shows where the bristle ends up. Way to the right.
The third picture I centered the bristle, using both timing plugs in.
The forth picture is where the timing is then.
The fifth picture is where the drive shaft is, and it must turn farther CC to bring the timing mark to the center.
I believe I have to pull the pump apart to see why the governor plate mark is off to the side.
Do you have any idea's as to why it is, or am I wrong on my thinking?
Thanks, Pat







,



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TinCan

04-24-2018 04:52:25




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Larry & Destroke,
Ahhh! I thank you both, for all your help! With your help, I Will, get this right. I'm always learning.
Now that you have shown me what they are, I found them in my diagram, in my parts catalog. I never thought of looking them up.
The pump is on my bench waiting for what ever I have to do to fix it. I will take them out again, yes I had them out when I was looking it over to find out what everything looks like, no, I did not change them when they were out. I will now.
I will switch the whole assembles from side to side. Is there any way to tell which one is which? I think (that gets me in trouble all the time), when I had them out, one was bigger around then the other, but I didn't look close at them then. You can see one of them out on the bench in the picture. I was looking at the linkage inside.
My bristle has a hex by the way, checked it in case I had to remove it. I will let you know how it goes.
Thanks again, Pat

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Destroked 450

04-23-2018 21:31:21




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
This is the timing advance



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Larry NCKS

04-23-2018 18:35:35




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I should also add I don't think you have room to remove the inner one with the pump on the engine. Furthermore, swap the whole assembly, button and all.



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Larry NCKS

04-23-2018 18:32:37




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Nope! he's talking about the advance piston assemblies. These are on the back side of your pump. IIEC they require a 1- 1/8 or 1¼ wrench or socket.



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TinCan

04-23-2018 17:23:28




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Destroked,
When you say the "timing advance being put together backwards" are you talking about the "cam ring" is on upside down (right rotation-left rotation), or the "transfer pump lining" is upside down ("C" or "CC")?
I have read, watch, and looked at many diagrams, and none list anything about timing advance, per say, that I have found.
What is the part you switched, so that I can check it.
Thanks, Pat

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Destroked 450

04-22-2018 18:21:51




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
What your describing is a classic example of the timing advance being put together backwards, no mater how you move the gear or twist the pump it won't time up.

As for the 144 pump they have different fuel rates but mount and time the same.

When I bought my 881 the pump was leaking around the throttle shaft, we installed my brothers 144 pump on my 172 engine in order to take the tractor on a club drive and left it on there until my pump was resealed.

Many years ago I bought a basket case 871 diesel, I rebuilt the engine and had the inj pump rebuilt, we couldn't get the pump timed right and the tractor ran like poo, after fooling with it for nearly a month a old mechanic mentioned the advance could be put together ether away but would only work properly one way.

We took the advance apart and swapped the parts around in the other direction, when we reinstalled the pump it timed up perfectly and the tractor ran great.

Some years later my brother was having problems with one of his 671 pumps he'd had rebuilt, I reminded him of the problems we'd had before with the advance, he checked and found the rebuilder have put the advance together backwards.

The only other issue I have heard of is if the wrong cam gear has been installed but I'd swap the parts in the advance first.

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TinCan

04-22-2018 17:00:50




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I have contacted Dieseltech, I am waiting for him to check something.
Mean while I took the pump covers off, It has been partly a part before. The lock wires were off the top cover, but on the linkage cover. I watch some videos on rebuilding it. The pump insides would have to be really messed up for the lines not to match up, from what I have seen. All the videos I watched showed the liner with the "C" up, mine has the "CC" up, but I do not know which way is right for mine.
I put every thing back together again, and tried to put the cam gear in on different teeth, but none would line the marks up. I had the engine sitting on 23 degrees before. I pulled the front engine cover off again (there goes my new gasket. lol), checked to make sure the timing marks were right, the dots match up. It has had the cover off before. The cam retainer has a new bolt in it. Why, I don't know.
It started to drizzle out, so I had to put the cover back on for now, and stop.
Can someone tell me the difference between a 9A543-H, and a 9A543-J . I have a 9A543-H on my "172". Which is listed as for a "144" engine. 9A543-J is listed for a "172" in my parts catalog. I was told at one time, it does not mater.
So what's the difference, the fuel setting?
If anyone can help out, I could definitely use the help!
Thanks, Pat


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Destroked 450

04-19-2018 14:30:28




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
You need to contact Dieseltech on this site, he can walk you thru what needs to be done.



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TinCan

04-19-2018 14:12:51




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Ok, so it sounds like I need to open it up. What do I need to find that's wrong. I can open it up. I've read some on opening it, actually to rebuild it. But seeing what's wrong is another thing, as I have never looked inside one before. The only thing I can see doing at this point is, open it, taking pictures as I go. Then post them, and someone tell me what's needs to be changed/fixed.
Which won't happen till tomorrow morning. So if you can give me some clues before then, would be great.
Thanks, Pat

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Destroked 450

04-19-2018 07:41:14




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Cam turns 1/2 speed of the engine, drive gear is it the correct position, problem is in the pump and yes pump should be parallel with the engine or close to parallel.



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riveroadrat

04-18-2018 18:21:30




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I see in your old pic that the pump is twisted about as far as it will go. Are those injector lines bent also? I think when they were new the pumps were probably parallel with the engine centerline. Does anyone know how many degrees a tooth on the drive gear translates to? Does cam run 1/4 speed of engine?



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TinCan

04-18-2018 09:48:26




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Destroked, I could not tell if the pump had ever been apart, but I do know it was off, because of the shims under it.
No it was not running when I bought it. I was told that he used it all the time, and parked it in a open front & back shed on the side of the barn. Then he died, 15 years ago. It's been sitting right where he parked it. Except a tree fell on the shed, and the son in-law removed the shed, and never moved it. He did not know how to start it (it didn't use a key), and being a SOS, he couldn't move it. But as dirty that it was from old diesel fuel on it, it had been running, long after it was worked on.
I'm going to look up that thread, and read it.
Pic's are where it sat for 15 years or so, engine pic's are after I got it home.
Thanks, Pat







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TinCan

04-18-2018 09:25:39




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
If you say that the "right" side was closer to the block, then my pump would be even more off. It's looking at the bottom, which would mean the "left" side would be closer to the block. Everything I've read has said, that it should be pretty much "even" with the block.
thanks, Pat



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Destroked 450

04-17-2018 19:03:28




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Has this pump been apart by you or the previous owner, if the timing advance has been installed backwards it will throw off the pumps timing.

Reason I ask is the pump gears looks correct, the pump does not

Was this tractor running before you took it apart to paint.

Had a discussion on pump timing a few days ago.

Look up a Thread posted here in the Ford section on Apr 10, 601-D Injection Pump Problem?

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riveroadrat

04-17-2018 18:07:55




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I think the manual shows the drive gears right side closer to the motor when in time. I'm pretty sure all mine were when i timed them. And the pump is set about right for correct timing.



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riveroadrat

04-17-2018 18:03:18




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
Well the camshaft cover is easy to get to. You could have a partially sheared key on the camshaft. Someone said the cam will twist also. We had one that had the thrust plate behind the cam gear broken. I dont remember if it caused it to be out of time. But it is a timing issue that you have.



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TinCan

04-17-2018 16:39:38




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I have installed the drive gear back in, and with the timing mark at 23 deg's the drive sit's straight like it should. But when I installed the injector pump, I could not get the pump marks to line up. with the pump off, and I line the marks up, the dog is no straight inline. In the picture of the bottom of the pump, the lines are inline with each other.
So how do I fix that?
Thanks, Pat





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RaymondSmith

04-16-2018 04:37:15




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I agree



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TinCan

04-16-2018 03:05:28




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I agree totally! I don't "Think" there was one originally, or, he thought he had lost it, and thought there was a need for it as a bearing type surface. I have found a few things that someone (PO) has done, and I don't know why. Like the wiring, so no one could start it, drive it away. His son in-law told that, and he didn't know what he had to do to crank it over. His father in-law died some years (15?) ago, and never touched the tractor, then sold it to me.
I will leave it out, and then I will not have a need for the shim under the pump. Then I'll set the pump timing, and see how it is. Unless someone tells me different as to why I need one, besides for timing.
Thanks Destroked,
Pat

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Destroked 450

04-15-2018 19:31:27




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 Re: Injector pump drive gear in reply to TinCan, 04-15-2018 17:11:05  
I can find no reference to that washer in the parts manual or shop manual.

That may be the reason you have a shim between the pump and block.

I can only guess someone installed that washer to slightly rotate the gear in order to effect the pump timing, but that's only a guess.

I recommend you put the drive gear in without the washer and then mount the pump without the shim, once in place see if you can align the timing marks on the pump with the flywheel timing properly set.

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