3000 engine swap question

levsmith · Mar 2, 2018

Hi all I have a basket case gasoline 3400 that needs the engine bored and sleeved. I just happened to be looking at the local auctions and there is a used 3000 engine going for auction tomorrow. I figure if I can get it cheap enough, it'll be worth a shot instead of spending $1000+ for a rebuild kit and machine work on my original block. From what I've researched it looks like there are 3 generations of the 3000 series through the years. Did the engines change between generations and if so, what do I need to look for to make sure it will fit on my tractor? I know my tractor is a 1966. Here are some codes I see on the original block.

Above oil pan on starter side: C5NE 6015 T1
NC198169J16

Around oil filter: C5NE-6884-D

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

shaun wallace · Mar 2, 2018

C5NE-6884-D is adapter to spin on filter was cartiage so makes pre 68 engine.

levsmith · Mar 2, 2018

(quoted from post at 19:35:33 03/02/18) C5NE-6884-D is adapter to spin on filter was cartiage so makes pre 68 engine.

Thanks Shaun, I didn't know that.

I guess my real question, will any Ford 3000 gas engine work with my tractor, or were there changes over the years that would complicate a swap?

Thanks

IanC · Mar 2, 2018

3400 IS a 3000 series, just the light industrial version. Your 3400 may be equipped with what is called a "stress block" since it was industrial, mostly those are seen on the 3500 hard nose heavy industrial but I have seen a 3400 with one. If it is, then it will have cast in ridges to reinforce the sides. If you are using a loader and you have a stress block you really should replace it with another stress block. The block itself will bolt right up. The major difference was head bolt size and since you are swapping complete engines that will not be a factor. The other thing to look for is that if you have the older style power steering pump with separate pump and reservoir that all the bolt holes you need are there and tapped.

IanC · Mar 2, 2018

P.S. invest in the factory reprint service manual offered on this site. You will use it more than you think.

levsmith · Mar 2, 2018

(quoted from post at 21:05:09 03/02/18) 3400 IS a 3000 series, just the light industrial version. Your 3400 may be equipped with what is called a "stress block" since it was industrial, mostly those are seen on the 3500 hard nose heavy industrial but I have seen a 3400 with one. If it is, then it will have cast in ridges to reinforce the sides. If you are using a loader and you have a stress block you really should replace it with another stress block. The block itself will bolt right up. The major difference was head bolt size and since you are swapping complete engines that will not be a factor. The other thing to look for is that if you have the older style power steering pump with separate pump and reservoir that all the bolt holes you need are there and tapped.

Thank you Ian, that's exactly the info I was looking for! I do have a loader but I'm not sure if my block has the ridges. I found a picture of a 3500 engine and the ridges on it are much more pronounced than the little gussets on my block. I'll try to attach a picture of mine. I do have the older style pump and separate reservoir, so I will have to check that. Thanks again!

Ultradog MN · Mar 3, 2018

I have never heard of a stress block. And I
have never heard of a difference between an ag,
utility, or industrial block.
Yes there were different blocks on the Thousand
Series but they were early vs late. Early ones
had a canister oil filter and screw in frost
plugs and later ones had screw on oil filters
and press in soft plugs.
The only stress block I can think of is maybe
the 10 series or Basildon blocks which had the
extra cross hatching which began in 1982 or 83.
The extra strength that was needed on the
utilities and industrials was added by means of
the heavy cast iron pan which tied the front
bolster,engine and transmission together.
ANY 3 cylinder block will bolt into your
tractor. There is no difference between a gas
or diesel block either, nor in the cranks or
rods.
PS, Ford made Ag, utility and industrial models
tractors. A 3400 was a Utility.

Bern · Mar 3, 2018

"Stress block"?? What? Is this a term you came up with on your own?

IanC · Mar 3, 2018

It is a term we used at the engine supplier I worked at previously. The regular engine the sides of the block were smooth, what we called the stress block (a term I think we picked up from the Cummins B series) had cast in external ribs. Place I used to work is closed today, but I'll call them Monday and see if they will email me pictures to illustrate. There are differences in the engines, but the gentleman was talking about swapping a complete engine which makes the mix and match about freeze plugs etc. a moot point as the buckle up between the front bolster, and block to bell housing are the same with the exception if his bolster requires a cast pan, but I don't remember coning across a 3400 with a cast pan.

Bern · Mar 3, 2018

I'm aware of the later blocks that came out in the 1980s with the external ribs. That said, I maintain that when the 3000/3400 tractors were being produced, the blocks were all the same.

RickB · Mar 3, 2018

Agree. Ribbed blocks were a build date thing, not an application thing. There weren?t any until they started, and then they all were. Early 1980?s IIRC.

IanC · Mar 3, 2018

Could be, when we got them to knock in the head who knows the source, just used to see a lot from 4500s and 550/555.

sotxbill · Mar 3, 2018

(quoted from post at 23:56:25 03/02/18)

(quoted from post at 21:05:09 03/02/18) 3400 IS a 3000 series, just the light industrial version. Your 3400 may be equipped with what is called a "stress block" since it was industrial, mostly those are seen on the 3500 hard nose heavy industrial but I have seen a 3400 with one. If it is, then it will have cast in ridges to reinforce the sides. If you are using a loader and you have a stress block you really should replace it with another stress block. The block itself will bolt right up. The major difference was head bolt size and since you are swapping complete engines that will not be a factor. The other thing to look for is that if you have the older style power steering pump with separate pump and reservoir that all the bolt holes you need are there and tapped.

Click to expand...

Thank you Ian, that's exactly the info I was looking for! I do have a loader but I'm not sure if my block has the ridges. I found a picture of a 3500 engine and the ridges on it are much more pronounced than the little gussets on my block. I'll try to attach a picture of mine. I do have the older style pump and separate reservoir, so I will have to check that. Thanks again!

Your ""bolt"" below the power steering pump is loose and could cause the block to crack.. at the front bolster.

Check Break · Mar 3, 2018

For those who occasionally comment about the date of issuance of the BSD, I have a BSD Parts Catalog that indicates the BSD series 332, 333 and 333H were introduced in 1981 and used the same block through 8/93. A change was made in 9/93 which appears to consist merely of the inclusion of freeze and pipe plugs that were previously sold separately. This seems to confirm what many of you have been saying about the year of introduction of the BSD.

RickB · Mar 3, 2018

Early 3 cylinder short blocks have differences based on spark or compression ignition. Up until the blocks changed in 1968 or 1969. The rods and I believe camshafts are different. When I converted my 1970 4000 from gas to diesel I considered converting my short block I did some research. Then I came across a low hour 201 D from a 1983 4610 and the game changed.

Ultradog MN · Mar 3, 2018

Just wondering out loud here...
I know the diesels changed 68-70ish - diesel lifters changed then and the diesel cams changed then too but I did not think the gassers changed at all internally.
I can't think of anything different between G vs D blocks tho.

Ultradog MN · Mar 3, 2018

All 3400s came with cast pan. They were probably the lightest unit that did but they had them. I parted out a 3400 some years ago and put the front axle on my 3000 for a couple years but then switched it back.

RickB · Mar 3, 2018

My info came from a careful look at an original parts catalog. I?ve got no reason to doubt that.

Bern · Mar 3, 2018

With regards to coming to conclusions based on parts catalogs, I'm pretty sure it was you that has stated in the past that the words "never" and "always" should not be used when trying to prove a point based on info from Ford Tractor parts catalogs (which I agree with by the way).

With regards to the short blocks, I understand that there are a few differences between gas and diesel model components, however I agree with Jerry about the bare blocks - I'm not aware of any differences, nor why there should be any.

RickB · Mar 4, 2018

Did I say the blocks were different? No. The early gas and diesel short block assemblies contain different camshafts and rods. I?ll stand by that statement.

Bern · Mar 4, 2018

This thread (the one starting with Jerry's comment on "stress blocks") is confusing because he began it by speaking about blocks only. As was the last sentence of his subsequent post, the one you replied to.

Sorry for the mix-up.

levsmith · Mar 4, 2018

Thank you all for the responses! Figured I would update you all. I did get the engine at the auction, unfortunately there was another guy there who needed it as well, so it didn't go as cheap as I was hoping! Anyways, the work can begin now.

The engine I bought does not have a oil filter adapter, so I assume that makes it a post 68 engine based off of the comment from shaun wallace.

I did notice, this new engine has a stamped oil pan, so I guess that means it came off of something other than the 3400. I will be swapping the oil pan for the cast one that is currently on the tractor.

Also to address sotxbill's concern, I realize that bolt is loose. I'm the one who loosened it in preperation to remove the front end so that I could drop the oil pan. I do appreciate you mentioning it though!

RickB · Mar 4, 2018

The cast pan calls for a different gasket than the steel pan.

Shetland Sheepdog · Mar 4, 2018

If memory serves, I'm thinking there's an engine date code stamped into the block, on the left side, just above the oil pan. I'll leave it to those more knowledgeable to confirm or deny.
HTH, Dave

levsmith · Mar 4, 2018

(quoted from post at 18:02:03 03/04/18) The cast pan calls for a different gasket than the steel pan.

I noticed that when I was looking at my parts book. Seems odd to me since they have the same bolt pattern, but I ain't no engineer! And of course, it looks like the cast pan gaskets are about 4x the price of the steel pan gasket :evil:

levsmith · Mar 4, 2018

Thanks Shetland. I checked the interwebs and you are correct. I found the code C7NN. According to the internet, the C is 60's vintage and the 7 is the year. So, the engine is a 67 model. I checked the one on the tractor and it is a C5NN, meaning 65. All of the other parts on the tractor also have C5NN cast into them, but I've been told the serial number decodes to a 66. Maybe it was assembled in 66? Got me wondering now...

Shetland Sheepdog · Mar 5, 2018

The number that I mentioned should be a stamped in #, not a raised cast in #.
Should read similar to 9H21B, which would translate to "Aug 21, 1969, day shift". That would be the date and shift that the engine was assembled. Numbers may be hard to find, as they may be hidden by paint, dirt, grease, etc.

Sean in PA · Mar 5, 2018

(quoted from post at 21:56:11 03/04/18) If memory serves, I'm thinking there's an engine date code stamped into the block, on the left side, just above the oil pan. I'll leave it to those more knowledgeable to confirm or deny.
HTH, Dave

Dave, it's the right side. The engine serial number is stamped on the flat rail just above the oil pan on the right side near the front. The engine assembly date code is stamped just above and slightly forward of the engine serial number.

sotxbill · Mar 5, 2018

(quoted from post at 14:39:42 03/03/18) Agree. Ribbed blocks were a build date thing, not an application thing. There weren?t any until they started, and then they all were. Early 1980?s IIRC.

Weren't the ribs an early attempt to stop the cavitation problem from the noise vibrations?? I thought I had read that somewhere???

Shetland Sheepdog · Mar 5, 2018

Thanks much Sean!

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