I have seen people talking about a volt meter guage instead of an amp meter. my amp meter is bad so I have to replace it with some thing. my tractor is 6 volt. don't know if my generator is working correctly or not. its all wired up and looks pretty good. do you hook up either meter the same way. thought maybe if I could find a digital one that would read in tenths it might tell me quicker if something is going wrong. wondered if any of you have installed one or am I just creating to much trouble. just curious. thanks
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I quit using amp gauges back in the 70's. I always install volt meters in my cars instead. I have used the old bar graft type gauges, but they didn't keep working, so I use the needle type. I have a volt meter with my new gauges to put in my '63 4000. once I'm done painting my tractor.
I'd ratter know what's in my battery, which tells you if your charging or not. It will also tell you whether if it's your battery or not, if it slow, or won't crank over.
I just don't like amp gauges.
Cars come with volt , and not amp gauges for years now also
Pat
Tim PloughNman Daley RIP
Well-known Member
It's the AMPS, not the VOLTS, that are important in the electrical system. You need a good strong fully charged battery that will sustain a charge under load in order to crank the engine over. The battery needs to be tested first, a good starter/alternator shop has the equipment to do this. If the battery is more than 5 years old, it may be time to replace it. The cheap/bargain house batteries have a life expectancy of 2 years average, or less, so opt to use EXIDE, INTERSTATE, or DEKA brands. Think of it like this. You can take a 6-volt dry cell battery, 4 AA's, 4 AAA's, 4 D cells batteries s they all equal 6 volts in value, BUT none have the amount of AMPS needed to crank over your engine. How do you know your AMMETER is bad? Just because it isn't working doesn't really mean it is the root cause. You could have other issues like the generator isn't charging, the voltage regulator isn't working, the wiring is wrong, or all of the above. You can take your generator, battery, VR, and AMMETER all to your trusty local starter/alternator shop guy who knows these old N's and he can test them all. I'd opt to do that before buying any new parts. You don't tell us what model tractor you have but new AMMETERS are available anywhere. Hold off buying one until you know what is the true root cause. I seriously doubt you just have a bad AMMETER. If the battery is bad, the generator can't charge it no matter what and thus the gauge won't show it. Many fellas who do a 12-volt conversion switch the AMMETER out with a VOLTMETER, but you'd really want to keep the amps showing -more important than volts.
Tim Daley(MI)
Tim Daley(MI)
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Post like this bring out the best in amp meter lubbers... They can dream some neat chit up. They are a special group :lol: They may be well schooled in how the system works but lack in understanding how voltage applies to daily operation of your tractor.
"Think of it like this. You can take a 6-volt dry cell battery, 4 AA's, 4 AAA's, 4 D cells batteries s they all equal 6 volts in value, BUT none have the amount of AMPS needed to crank over your engine."
This Has nuittin to do with a vehicle starting/charging system absolutely nuttin. Why we are on cranking and amp meters maybe they can explain how a in dash amp meter will help you diagnose a no crank, slow crank are the at the moment of distress the health of your battery.
I guess they forgot the first tool you hook in the diagnostic approach is a voltmeter "whodathunkit"... The first question that needs to be answered is WHUTS the voltage...
The most important part of your electrical system is the battery... The most useful tool to moniture battery health is a voltmeter bar none...
If you switch to a voltmeter you have to do a little re-wiring.
Not a big deal, but it's not a direct hookup to your existing wiring.
If you have a two post style ammeter, the two wires could be
removed from it and connected together. Then the positive side of
the voltmeter goes to key switched power, the other side to ground.
Not a big deal, but it's not a direct hookup to your existing wiring.
If you have a two post style ammeter, the two wires could be
removed from it and connected together. Then the positive side of
the voltmeter goes to key switched power, the other side to ground.
Both have pluses and minuses.... one costs a lot more to install by making you run the heavy current wire into the cab and back.... so guess which way the cars are built????
With higher current charging systems, a volt meter can be fooled into showing proper voltage on a bad or weak celled battery that an amp meter would show excessive charging.
A current meter will show "okay" on a sulfated battery...
A current meter showing initial high charge and then tapering back, shows correctly the current ability of the charging system that a voltmeter does not do as well. a volt meter does not show a 60 amp alternator putting out 60 amps or 5 amp as all is based on battery and how sulfated it is and therefore its voltage.
A volt meter can show low battery voltage during cranking but will not otherwise show current capability of charging system. low voltage during cranking can be do to bad connections or sulfated battery.
To argue one over the other is a fools game. as both are related and but respond differently, one to current, one to voltage and can show or mask different problems. One could argue since lots of tractors dont have lights or other current uses, other than charging the battery, a volt meter might suffice and is cheaper.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
My thoughts: Back in the day with 6 volt batteries and 20-40 amp charging capabilities, it was a lot easier for analog (metered/scalar) instruments to read the amps since there were more of them and were a better indicator of charge rate/necessity for such.
With today's digital instruments, with 2 place decimals, it's a lot easier to monitor the charge voltage and makes for a simpler instrument and smaller wiring, lighter weight, even though more variables come into play. For a lead acid, conventional battery, my number is 12.75V or better for a full charge, 24 hours after any charging function. Course that number is dependent on numerous things, temperature for one. A hydrometer, measuring the cell chemistry would be best, but unpractical.
With today's digital instruments, with 2 place decimals, it's a lot easier to monitor the charge voltage and makes for a simpler instrument and smaller wiring, lighter weight, even though more variables come into play. For a lead acid, conventional battery, my number is 12.75V or better for a full charge, 24 hours after any charging function. Course that number is dependent on numerous things, temperature for one. A hydrometer, measuring the cell chemistry would be best, but unpractical.
Bern
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mount Vernon, WA
IMHO, a voltmeter is a more reliable indicator of overall electrical system health. If the voltage is 13.5 - 14.5ish on a 12-volt system, or 1/2 that on a 6-volt system, all is well. If it drops below this point, either the charging system is not keeping up or the loads are excessive. An ammeter would not tell you anything different.
The biggest problem with an ammeter is when the alternator/generator ceases to charge at all. With little to no load on an electrical system, the battery will slowly die and the operator will have not a clue since the ammeter needle will be so close to zero that he won't notice anything amiss.
The biggest problem with an ammeter is when the alternator/generator ceases to charge at all. With little to no load on an electrical system, the battery will slowly die and the operator will have not a clue since the ammeter needle will be so close to zero that he won't notice anything amiss.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Anther long draw out crock of bull learn how to read a voltmeter in a automotive application. In the rare case a amp meter is needed for a deeper diagnostics use it then put it back in your tool box...
The good, No need to dream up every possible application a voltmeter is useful... Its plan and simple :shock:
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
One of my uses of the ammeters on chargers is when I am testing a sulphated up battery.
Measuring the battery voltage with a voltmeter test instrument, it appears to be charged (as you are mentioning with having an ammeter for a charging instrument) and auto chargers shut off. Attempting to put the battery in service for high current loads, like engine starting is fruitless. Hooking the charger back to the bad battery shows a low amperage recharge.........daaaaaaaa.
Having bought a HF load tester I can now see how the sulphate effects the available current flow for the previously confusing results with charging and performance.
Measuring the battery voltage with a voltmeter test instrument, it appears to be charged (as you are mentioning with having an ammeter for a charging instrument) and auto chargers shut off. Attempting to put the battery in service for high current loads, like engine starting is fruitless. Hooking the charger back to the bad battery shows a low amperage recharge.........daaaaaaaa.
Having bought a HF load tester I can now see how the sulphate effects the available current flow for the previously confusing results with charging and performance.
ptfarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Tx
Amp meters a good way to burn your car, truck, tractor, or anything else up. I used to use amp meters (gauges) until one could have made my truck burn to the ground. Got into the truck after it had been sitting a few days, had a burn smell in it, the battery was completely dead. The amp meter had shorted out, and luckily it only burned up all the wiring for the charging system, if it had been a newer truck with all the plastic it would have burnt to the ground. There is a reason why they switched cars, trucks, tractors, etc from amp meters to volt meters.
Bern
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mount Vernon, WA
While I don't discount the possibility of an amp meter shorting out, it's certainly not the reason they switched. Fusible links and fuses are
in place to prevent a vehicle/tractor from burning down to the ground in the event of a short circuit.
in place to prevent a vehicle/tractor from burning down to the ground in the event of a short circuit.
"The amp meter had shorted out, and luckily it only burned up all the wiring for the charging system,"
If "all the charging system wiring" burned up with the engine NOT running, likely the cutout relay stuck closed at shutdown if a generator system, or the rectifier shorted out if an alternator system.
If the Ammeter itself had simply shorted, just the "battery side" wiring to the ammeter would have burned/melted.
NO WAY could that damage the wiring on the charging system-side wiring!
If "all the charging system wiring" burned up with the engine NOT running, likely the cutout relay stuck closed at shutdown if a generator system, or the rectifier shorted out if an alternator system.
If the Ammeter itself had simply shorted, just the "battery side" wiring to the ammeter would have burned/melted.
NO WAY could that damage the wiring on the charging system-side wiring!
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I hope y’all amp meter lubbers have a good paying day job cuzz you would never make a living fix’N electrical system on a vehicle… Y’all seemed to forget the basics the first thing you need to know is the battery health you start with a VOLTMETER… A voltmeter is the first tool you hook up it’s the first information you need to know a in dash amp meter will not supply that. Y'all can dream up all the chit you won't to you can write a book on amp meter use you are gonna need a voltmeter...
1)My tractor will not crank the amp meter is setting at Zero what useful information does the amp meter provide...
2)My tractor cranks over normal and won’t start the amp meter is sitting at zero are close what useful information does the amp meter provide
3)My tractor cranks over slow and won’t start the amp meter is setting at zero what useful information does the amp meter provide.
4)My tractor cuts off intermittently the amp meter goes to zero what information does the amp meter provide.
5) My battery keeps going dead to the point it will not crank the engine over fast are long enough to start the engine I have to jump it off. It has a new battery a new alternator my amp meter read 30 plus amps for a normal time after I start the engine then settles down to under 5 amps. I have checked for drains I have none I have disconnected the battery after each use I still have the problem what useful information does the amp meter provide.
To argue one over the other is a fools game. To argue with amp meter lubbers I don’t know why I do there evaluation makes absolutely no fudgen sense other than to get fools to play along with them… If a guy is not confused now he’s really in a fudgen jam… You are playing a game you can win for those that know no more than you do but not win for those that know more about automotive electrical systems that you do… (for those amp meter lubbers that have some kind of lectrical degree and like to whoop folks with it hang it in the john it may come in handy someday) I am not making the argument to belittle amp meter lubbers it’s to make diagnosing electrical systems the right way the correct way and the EZ way… A amp meter has its place It does not even come close to providing information needed to evaluate normal malfunctions that we all will encounter.
If you disagree answer the questions… If you think I am a fool answer the questions we will see who the fool is...
ptfarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Tx
Old truck, no cutout relay to stick closed, all the wires for the charging system side were all bundled together with the battery side so when the battery side burned "it burned all the wires". It was the amp meter because the glass was cracked, and smoked (you couldn't read the amp gauge).
ptfarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Tx
The truth^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Amp gauges don't really do any good, got my first car when I was 16 years old (back in 1981). It had a amp gauge, and even though it showed it was putting out amps (charging). The car in the winter time always cranked really slow, while the charging system was putting out amps a volt meter showed "it wasn't putting out enough volts" only 11.8 volts. After figuring out it was the regulator I replaced the regulator then it was charging 14.6 volts along with the same amount of amps. With the extra (proper) voltage no more slow cranking in the winter time.
I don't see how this statement fits electrical theory.
But then, I haven't taught electrical theory for over 20 years.
I may be rusty.
I thought the original post asked if a voltmeter or ammeter were
wired up the same. The are not, and I answered that question.
After re-reading it, I see Norm also asked about a digital meter.
I don't know of a digital meter that fits an N and works reliably on 6 volts.
I wouldn't rely on analog 12V gauge to read reliably on a 6V system either.
I have both ammeters and voltmeters and I know how to read
both, so I will stay out of that argument. It comes up often.
ptfarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Tx
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Finding a voltmeter that is laid out for a 6V scale/application would be a issue
I would not try a digital on a 6V tractor it would have to be manual/analog. That's not my beef its the stupid chit folks dream up to back up there claim... They are making it hard real hard it will bite them BTDT keep a voltmeter handy you will need to know the voltage before you make your call on a repair...
ptfarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Tx
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
That's not what I would use I like the one in this link but I can not find one.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206087
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