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Ford 860 Stalling, bad Thermostat?

M

MikeyK

Member
Hello,
I just rebuilt the carb on my Ford 860, installed a new gas tank (original tank had a pin hole leak), a new fuel line with a heat sleeve, & a new vented gas cap (free replacement from the 1993-10-T2 Service Bulletin). The tractor runs better now, it'll idle for long periods (30+ minutes) with no problems. However, when I increase the RPMs, it seems like it's getting too hot and eventually stalls. The collant temp is below 200 degrees. After it cools down for 5-10 minutes, it starts right up and works fine... for a while. It had a similar problem before but I assumed it was due to flooding since gas was dripping from the carb each time it stalled, which doesn't happen now since the carb rebuild.

So, what could be causing this problem? The antifreeze is clear and at the proper level. My dad flushed and filled the radiator before I got the tractor so I assume it's 50/50 but I don't have a hydrometer to be sure, I guess it could be 100% antifreese. The fins are clean and as straight as I could get 'em. The water pump seems to be in good shape, no wiggling or odd sounds if you move the fan blades. Could it be a bad thermostat?

It might not be overheating, it could be something else but it seems like a lot of heat is coming off the engine after it stalls. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

-Mike
 

Not saying this is your problem, but coils and condensers that aren't in good shape get worse as they get warmer.
 
Larry NCKS,
Thanks for the reply. So you're saying the small passages in my radiator might be plugged up or restricted?

-Mike
 
(quoted from post at 08:45:31 08/15/17) Larry NCKS,
Thanks for the reply. So you're saying the small passages in my radiator might be plugged up or restricted?

-Mike
Click to expand...

No, I'm not. I'm talking about your electrical system.
 
Larry NCKS,
Ah, thanks for the clarification. So you think it's more likely an electrical issue with coil and/or condenser than a bad thermostat?

-Mike
 
(quoted from post at 09:12:45 08/15/17) Larry NCKS,
Ah, thanks for the clarification. So you think it's more likely an electrical issue with coil and/or condenser than a bad thermostat?

-Mike
Click to expand...

Yes!
 
Larry NCKS,
I looked at my tractor, through my manuals and parts catalog, and I can't find the condenser. I found a new condenser that supposedly fits the 860 but, like I said, I don't see any mention of it in the parts diagrams. Is it possible that the Ford 860 doesn't have a condenser? Thank you for your time.

-Mike
 
Would anyone else like to chime in? Should I replace the coil and condenser first because they'd be more likely, than the thermostat, to be the cause of my problem? Thanks.

-Mike
 
Always simple trouble shooting before parts NEVER the other way around.
#1 check that you have a good blue/white spark at the center wire of the distributor cap and also at all 4 plug wires. It needs to jump a 1/4 inch gap or more.
#2 pull the carb drain plug and make sure you get a good steady flow of gas that will fill a pint jar in umber 3 minutes. Also when you rebuild a carb you need to soak it over night in a good carb cleaner. Then you need to spray it out good with carb cleaner spray and then blow out all the passageways and then poke them all out with a small piece of wire or as I use a torch tip cleaner tool
#3 when was the last time you serviced the air cleaner and dumped the water and mud out of it

I have been fighting a problem a lot like your on a truck I have and found the condenser was bad but I did the trouble shooting before I started switching out parts. I found a weak spark so I started with points then the condenser. Coils almost never go bad by the way
 
old,
Thanks for the reply. For #1, what's the best way to test the spark of each wire? Along with your help from a recent post ( http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1322200 ), I already did all of #2 except for removing the carb drain plug after installing the freshly cleaned and rebuilt carb. As for #3, I cleaned the air cleaner about 2 weeks ago, and filled the cup with new oil.

-Mike
 
If your new gas line runs behind the manifold, consider rerouting it around the front or back of the engine if everything else
fails. I had one that boiled the gas in the line and caused similiar problems. Before I rerouted mine, I wrapped the line with
insulation and saw that it helped. A shot in the dark, but keep it in mind.
 
Jimmyjack,
I had read about that problem so, when I installed the new fuel line, I slipped a heat sleeve over the entire length of it. It claims to shield heat to a continuous operating temperature of 1100 degree Fahrenheit, 2000 degree Fahrenheit intermittent.

-Mike
 
old,
In addition to my last reply to you, I have one more question. Of the electrical parts mentioned, which have to do with keeping the tractor running after it has been started? Like I said, it starts fine, it just stalls when hot (after around 15-20 minutes of working it). Thanks again.

-Mike
 
(quoted from post at 15:31:09 08/15/17) old,
In addition to my last reply to you, I have one more question. Of the electrical parts mentioned, which have to do with keeping the tractor running after it has been started? Like I said, it starts fine, it just stalls when hot (after around 15-20 minutes of working it). Thanks again.

-Mike
Click to expand...

I ain't old . . . well maybe I am :lol: . . . but all electrical parts in the ignition system have to work to keep it running as well as start it. Do the testing old suggested. If you don't have a fat blue white spark at any distributor cap or spark plug connection when it gets hot and dies, figure out why!
 
The coil is the electrical component that usually first shows it is having problems after it warms up for a while, and then gradually over time it exhibits issues after shorter and shorter run times until it is so bad that it won't make a good spark even when cold.
 
Over time you can get an insulation break down between the turns on the coil, just due to old age. The only solution is try a substitute coil. If this works buy a new coil for the machine. Condensers do short out and can explode, Similiar to what happened on my old AA Ford truck I used for hauling hay.
 
I disassembled the distributor last night and found that the dust cover (under the distributor cap, covers the condenser and points) had a pretty big crack in it. I had read that if moisture gets to the condenser that it can cause it to fail. I ordered a new dust cap that comes with a new seal, felt washer, & a retainer for the felt washer.

I also ordered a new condenser which came with new points. It may be obvious once the parts arrive but I don't understand how to gap the points to .025, can anyone explain?

The coil is a Delco Remy 242 12v so I think it's new as of the 6v to 12v conversion. The alternator is also a Delco Remy, do they all have internal regulators? If so, I should need to use the original Regulator (large block with 3 terminals) that sits directly under the gauges, right?

One more thing (for now), the rotor shaft got moved while disassembling the distributor, I the general direction it was facing but do I need to do anything to ensure I don't mess up the timing? The manual also mentions installing the distributor at 26 degrees (if I remember correctly), what does that mean? 26 degrees in relation to what?

I know there are a lot of questions in this post, hopefully the community can answer 'em all. ;) Thanks again for all of the help everyone has provided thus far.

-Mike
 
Correction, I meant to say that if my alternator is internally regulated, I should [b:c0046b0c0d][u:c0046b0c0d][i:c0046b0c0d]NOT[/i:c0046b0c0d][/u:c0046b0c0d][/b:c0046b0c0d] need the Regulator that's directly under the gauges, right? Also, my alternator is only connected via 1 wire.

-Mike
 

Yes, a single wire alternator is internally regulated and does not use the OEM regulator under your gauges.

Explain how the rotor shaft turned, If it turned without turning the engine you have real problems.
 

I forgot. Points are gapped by use of a feeler gauge. Gap is correct when the points are positioned against any lobe of the distributor shaft and gapped at .025 inch.

I don't mean to be critical here, but it sounds as though you need a tutor there to walk you through some of this for the first time.
 
Larry NCKS,
Thanks again for answering my many questions. Yes, I'm new to tractor repair but I'd like to think I'm a relatively intelligent and handy person. :) It doesn't hurt that I've received a wealth of knowledge, from the people on this forum, in the short amount of time I've owned my 860.

The rotor shaft turned because I removed the entire distributor to disassemble it on my work bench. I know the general direction it was facing but do I need to do anything to ensure I don't mess up the timing? The manual also mentions installing the distributor at 26 degrees (if I remember correctly), 26 degrees in relation to what?

The existing points look pretty new, it's possible they were replaced when my dad rebuilt the engine because the distributor cap and rotor look new too. The thing is, my dad isn't a "details" man so I'm not sure if he properly gaped the points during install. I looked at it closely last night so now it makes sense when you say "lobes" (low spots in the shaft) is where I need to check the gap.

-Mike
 
The lobes are the high spots. When the plastic piece on the arm of the points is on the flat (low spot) the points should be closed and when it is on the lobe (high spot) the points should be opened 0.025". The screw that holds the points down to the breaker plate goes through a slot in the points and you loosen the screw a little and slide the points back and forth along the slot to get the desired gap and then tighten the screw down.
 
Sean,
Thanks a ton for that clarification and instruction on setting the proper points gap. I incorrectly assumed the gap was the space between the plastic piece and the flat (low) spot. I've gaped plenty of spark plugs but I obviously have no experiencing gaping points.

Do you have any wisdom to impart concerning the re-installation of my distributor (see above)?

-Mike
 

At moment of stall, check spark.. If it has spark, look at fuel.

If it realm did stall from overheating, a few minutes cool down would not be enough to restart. On the other hand, if it starved for fuel, a few minutes setting could let the carb bowl refill...
 
souNdguy,
Your logic makes perfect sense. To clarify, I would have to wait closer to 10 minutes (I said 5-10 minutes previously) before it'd restart. I also just completely rebuilt the carb and was very careful to get it clean, including all of the tiny passages, and to set the float height per spec in the manual. The distributor cap, rotor, wires, and spark plugs were all new with the rebuild (12/2015) and it hasn't gotten a lot of use since then (maybe an hour per week, less in the winter).

However, all that rules nothing out until I actually test for spark and fuel after stall so I really appreciate the feedback.

-Mike
 

The timing window is under the hydraulic pump on the right side of the engine. The marks are on the flywheel and pointer on the casting. Find the timing mark, 8° BTC sticks in my mind. Bear in mind you can find this mark and be 180° out. Therefore, you'll need to make sure cylinder # 1 is near TDC on the compression stroke when this mark appears.

Look straight at the right side of the engine. Insert the distributor so that the position of the # 1 spark plug wire ends up near the 10 or 11 o'clock position when the points just begin to open as the rotor points at the number 1 tower. Bear in mind you'll have to allow for rotation of the shaft as the gear engages the camshaft gear.

Fine tune with a timing light after engine is running.
 
Larry NCKS,
First, thanks for explaining how to properly set the timing. Second, I want to apologize for even asking how to do it before looking in my manuals. I looked it up and read the procedure last night, before I saw your reply.

I think I understand what I need to do but I need a bit of clarification. The original Ford Tractor Shop Manual says to set the #1 piston at the 4 degree mark on the flywheel, which is just before TDC. However, the newer I&T manual says that the timing mark for 1955-1957 models is 26 degrees. Shortly after that it says "with the engine running at the slow idle speed of 450-475 rpm, the 4 degree timing mark should register with the index at timing port".

So, if I'm setting the timing while the tractor isn't running, which number do I line up on the flywheel, the 4 or the 26? Thanks again.

-Mike
 
Set it on 4°.This is called static timing. 26° would be the advance timing with the engine at higher speeds.
 
Larry,
Fantastic, thanks! The parts are scheduled to arrive tomorrow so hopefully I'll have enough time this weekend to get it all back together. I'll let you know how it goes.

-Mike
 
Larry,
Oh, hey, I forgot to ask you, yesterday when you said "it sounds as though you need a tutor there to walk you through some of this for the first time", was that an offer? If so, be here early Saturday morning. I'll serve you breakfast before we get started. Hahaha... ;)

-Mike
 
Why didn't you guys tell me that there was an electronic ignition module I could buy for my tractor?!? About 15 minutes after learning they existed, I ordered one to replace the points and condenser. Yes, it was more expensive but there are multiple advantages and I didn't have to deal with setting the point gap or adjusting the points spring tension.

My tractor still had all the original wiring, much of it unused after my dad converted it to 12v, so I ordered a new wiring harness too.

Over the weekend, I removed, cleaned, and painted the solenoid and coil, removed all the old wire, installed the new wiring harness, and the new electronic ignition. I also installed a new set of spark plugs.

The tractor used to have to crank for a few seconds before it'd start (on a good day) but now it fires up almost instantly and sounds like it's running smoother.

It was late when I finished so I only got to drive it around for a few minutes last night. So, I have no idea if the problem in my original post has been resolved or not. Either way, I greatly appreciate everyone who took the time to answer my questions and point me in the right direction.

-Mike
 
(quoted from post at 14:16:20 08/21/17) Why didn't you guys tell me that there was an electronic ignition module I could buy for my tractor?!? -Mike
Click to expand...

I hope it works out for you but if the electronics fail, and they do, you might want to know how to put the points ignition back in and get it set up properly, just sayin'.
 
W_B,
I agree and I'm sure I could reinstall and set up the points if the electronic ignition fails. However, it seems as if you need a special tool to measure the points spring tension properly. I guess I'll cross that bridge when/if I come to it.

-Mike
 
I still haven't had enough time to put my 860 through its paces to see if my original stalling issue has been resolved.

If it still stalls, I think I'm going to replace the coil next but I'm not sure if I need a 1.5 ohm coil or a 3 ohm. Since my current coil is 12v, I wrongfully assumed it was new with the 12v conversion but I'm pretty sure it's the original. It's a Delco Remy 242 12v. I looked everywhere to find specs on that model but I'm unable to find the ohm rating.

Currently, a wire is going from the coil's positive post to a resistor (small white rectangle with 2 male spade connections), then from the resistor on to ignition. So, am I correct to assume that my old coil does not have an internal resistor and is probably 1.5 ohm?

Once I know how many ohms I need, should I got with oil filled or epoxy filled? Supposedly the oil filled handles heat better while the epoxy filled handles vibration better.

-Mike
 
No coil has an internal resistor. They all have some amount of resistance based on the gauge of wire used in the primary and the number of coils wrapped around the core. Stop the guessing and get a coil that says on it "12 volts no external resistor required" and get rid of the resistor that's on there, or get a coil that you knows for sure needs an external resistor and what the value of that resistor needs to be.
 
Sean,
That's what I'm confused about. There only seem to be 2 options and this is how I understand it: The 1.5 ohm coil is for tractors with external resistors and 3.0 ohm coil is for tractors without resistors. Is that right? I was just asking to be sure I understood it correctly. Thanks.

-Mike
 
Sean,
Ok, good. But you think I should go with the 3 ohm and get rid of my external resistor? What about oil filled vs epoxy filled coils? Thank you for your time.

-Mike
 
(quoted from post at 16:28:51 08/31/17) Sean,
Ok, good. But you think I should go with the 3 ohm and get rid of my external resistor? What about oil filled vs epoxy filled coils? Thank you for your time.

-Mike
Click to expand...
o you have that selection available to you?
 
[quote="JMOR,
Yes, both 1.5 ohm & 3.0 ohm coils come in either oil filled (better for heat) or epoxy filled (better for vibration). If I understand correctly, if I end up needing a new coil, I can get the 3.0 ohm and get rid of my external resistor. If I keep my external resistor, I would need the 1.5 ohm coil.

-Mike
 
Alright, so, last weekend I bush hogged for 30+ minutes but my 860 stalled again. This was an improvement because I could only work it hard for 15-20 minutes previously. Also, it runs MUCH more smoothly.

I ordered a new 3 ohm coil and installed it this morning without using the external resistor. I used my box blade for over an hour, digging down and smoothing out potholes in the road, and I was really happy with how it ran. I had it in 4th gear, on my way home (1/2+ mile away), and it stalled on me again. The coil was pretty hot to the touch so I let it cool down a bit and about 10-15 minutes later I stared it back up and drove it the rest of the way home.

At this point, the only electrical components I can think of that aren't brand new are the solenoid (original), distributor (original), and the starter (original), and the battery (Rural King brand purchased late 2015). Everything else was either replaced in late 2015, during the 12v conversion (dist. cap, plug wires, alternator, and ignition), or in the past month by me (wiring harness, coil, spark plugs, and condenser & points replaced with electronic ignition).

I am much happier with the longer run time but it's bugging me that it's still stalling. Any ideas? Thanks.

-Mike
 
I called PerTronix tech support yesterday and the guy told me that the operating temperature of my new coil is 180-200 degrees F so it's not overheating. He also gave me some instructing using a jumper wire and a multi-meter to rule out the coil.

I definitely think it's heat related. After it stalls, it will not start up and stay running until it sits for 10-15 minutes. I've been able to run it longer now so I think all of the things I've done have improved the performance and run time.

I'll report back after I've gone over everything that PerTronix suggested but what are the odds my brand new coil is a lemon? If it isn't the coil, what else could be causing my 860 to stall? The ignition, battery, solenoid? Everything else has recently been replaced.

-Mike
 
I'm taking a shot in the dark here. But there are two other really odd things to consider:

1. Vapor Lock... Are your fuel lines original? Original material? Original routing? If not, did someone over the lifetime of the tractor change them so that they run too close to the exhaust manifold or something else that could heat them too much? If the fuel in the line gets so hot that it vaporizes; then you can have issues with getting fuel from the tank to the carb.

2. I almost hate to say this, but...what about your gas cap? In my lifetime, I can think of a couple of instances where mystery stalling over time came from a gas cap not venting the fuel tank properly.

When the tractor stalls, have you tried pulling the cap immediately? Is there a massive sucking sound when you do so? Will it start back up sooner if you pull the cap?

Again...just shots in the dark. I know how frustrating this can be.
 
Hi lastcowboy32,
Thanks for your reply. I recently replaced the gas cap with the newest vented cap available from New Holland (big & blue with a white plastic cylinder hanging down).

I also recently replaced the gas tank and fuel line. The fuel line is the original style that routes the original way. I covered it with heat-shield tubing to help prevent vapor lock.

Now that you mention it, when it gets hot & I look in the gas tank, I have noticed bubbles come out from the screen filter that's attached to the fuel shut-off. The filter is just a cylinder-shaped screen with a brass cap on the top. So, where are those bubbles coming from? Is that normal?

-Mike
 

The only time that I see bubbles there is when I turn the fuel back on to by old 2N.

For instance, I follow the advice of some of the more experienced Ford N people here that you should turn the fuel off at the gas tank, if you park your N tractor for a long time. That way, if the carb float sticks, you won't fill your crankcase with fuel.

If I leave the tractor like that for a long time, some of the fuel in the sediment bowl, fuel line and/or carburetor must evaporate; because; when I go to use the tractor and turn the fuel on, you can actually see the sediment bowl refill and see a few bubbles come up into the tank, as the fuel displaces the air in the system.

I don't know if that means anything in your situation. It would seem that, under normal use, your fuel system should always be full between the tank and the carburetor. The only place for air to gather would be maybe in the bowl of the carburetor after the float closes and before it re-opens.

When the carburetor bowl re-fills...I'm not sure where that displaced air goes. Does it usually bubble back up through the tank? Vented at the carb? My guess is that it would be vented at the carb.

Not sure.

Maybe some of the more experienced guys have a comment on that.

Hope that you're back up and running consistently soon.
 
lastcowboy32,
Thanks again for your input. It's actually a lot of small bubbles, so many that I can hear them bubbling up, while still sitting in the seat, after I shut the tractor off or after it stalls. I didn't think much of it before because I haven't used the tractor a ton since I received it. Since I have the vented gas cap, I don't remember noticing any pressure release when removing it.

However, the things you mentioned got me thinking. I would consider myself a logical thinker and it seems to me that those bubbles have to be from vaporized fuel in the line, right? I mean, what else could it be?

The thing is, I have a new, original-style, fuel line that is routed in the originally intended way. Not only that but I also have a flexible heat-shield sleeve over the entire length of the fuel line which claims to handle a continuous operating temperature of 1100 degree Fahrenheit, 2000 degree Fahrenheit intermittent.

Part of me thinks we might be on the right track. On the other hand, it wouldn't make any sense for the recently replaced coil to have any positive effect on my issue, but it did. Well, at least I thought it did. Maybe the only reason I was able to go for a longer period of time was because 1.) it was a little cooler out that day than it had been during by previous test, and 2.) I was running the tractor differently, lots of forwards and backwards using the box blade whereas before it was bush-hogging at a constant speed/rpm.

I'm not sure at this point, hopefully someone else will add to the conversation.

-Mike
 
I was wondering how you made out.

So, I read through all of the comments...

Thermostat
Vapor Lock
Timing
Carburetor
etc, etc,

When it stalls, have you ever tried to introduce fuel artificially? As in, you can disconnect the carb's intake and spray a little bit of starter fluid or something of that ilk right into the intake.

Would that start it right back up? If so, then you have a fuel issue.

If not then you definitely have an electrical issue.

As far as your carburetor goes, you mentioned that you rebuilt it. I remember when I rebuilt mine, that I had to adjust the new float. The tabs on it had to be bent, so that it had the correct height between opening and closing.

I guess the brand new floats should be right on the money when you get them with the rebuild kit, but they don't guarantee it; so they make you double-check during the rebuild.

Did you remember doing anything with that?

Maybe there is some issue there with the float not resting/floating at the right height.

The thing is with that, though...I can shut off the fuel on my old 2N right at the tank and let the engine go dead from fuel starvation. Then, I can turn the fuel back on, and it will re-start after, at most, 30 to 45 seconds.

This 5 or 10 minute waiting period just doesn't jive with that.

Vapor Lock or heated up electrical components are more consistent with your delayed re-start...unless you have some kind of blockage in your fuel line...but you said it's all new?

Here is a really off the wall question...you mentioned that you installed a heat shield on the fuel line. Is this factory original, or is it an aftermarket piece? The reason I ask is this: how is it installed? Are you certain that it is, in all cases, insulating the fuel line from hot components...or...is it actually trapping heat from a hot component.

For instance, in a hypothetical circumstance...say...the fuel line runs between the block and a hot manifold. If you put the shield on the block side, it may insulate it from the block; while trapping heat from the manifold. I can't really think of why a fuel line would run between two heat sources...but we're just out in the weeds now :)

Good luck!
 
lastcowboy32,
Sorry for the delayed response. Some friends were visiting from out of state earlier in the week then I was playing catch-up at work.

Yes, I had to adjust the float to the exact height recommended in my manuals, when reassembling the carb.

The heat-shield is a 1/2" diameter flexible fiberglass sleeve that I slipped over the new fuel line before attaching it. All of the original heat shield plates are still in place on the tractor.

I was discussing my issue with one of my friends, who was visiting, and he said his dad had the same exact issue on a similar tractor so he gave him a call. His dad said rerouting the fuel line fixed his problem.

I explained to my friend what I had read many times on tractor forums when I was considering re-routing my fuel line and it goes something like this: "Do you think you know better than the engineers that designed the tractor? The fuel line was ran between the manifold for a reason". I told him that logic made perfect sense to me but my friend made an excellent point. He said these old tractors were originally intended to run on leaded gas which has a MUCH higher boiling point. Even unleaded gas, without ethanol, has a higher boiling point than today's 10% ethanol gas. And, who knows, I might be making it even worse by putting Sta-Bil in all of my fuel.

I was making sure my carb was adjusted properly last weekend and it was so hot near the carb that I couldn't make any adjustment without wearing a thick work glove. So, with your help, I think it makes the most sense that my gas is boiling/vaporizing and bubbling up into the tank. Besides trying to make some custom heat shields for the carb and/or fuel line, it seems like my only solution might be to rerun the fuel line.

-Mike
 
Sorry for the delayed update but better late than never, right?

So, since my last post I re-routed my fuel line. I used a metal coat hangar to mock up how the custom line would be ran. I then used a little pipe bender to bend a piece of NiCopp 1/4" brake line to match the hangar. I used the AutoZone "Loan-A-Tool" program to borrow a tube flaring kit to flare the end of the brake line I had to cut. It worked perfectly and the re-routed fuel line resolved my bubbling fuel issue.

However, after re-timing the engine today, the tractor runs so much cooler that I don't think I'd have any issues if I reinstalled the stock fuel line.

So, for anyone having the same issue as described in this long thread, [b:8dbb159f22][u:8dbb159f22]check your timing first![/u:8dbb159f22][/b:8dbb159f22]

If your timing isn't off, re-run your fuel line. First, I flipped the sediment bowl around so the connection was pointing out instead of in towards the engine. From the fuel shut-off in the center of the tank, I ran the new fuel line out towards the radiator, made a 90 degree bend towards the alternator, made another 90 degree bend above the alternator, and then another 90 degree bend down to the sediment bowl connection.

Thanks for everyone's help.

-Mike
 
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