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Ford 4000 no hydraulics

S

spandit

Member
Hello, first post and first tractor so please be gentle...

I've just acquired a 1970 Ford 4000 3-cylinder diesel tractor (independent PTO). Got it mega cheap and at first thought I had a bargain, especially once we got it running (was told it hadn't run for a year and can believe it). It came with a loader which was stuck in the ground when we got it off the trailer. By moving the valves on the block (obviously aftermarket) the loader did move slightly until one of the pipes exploded, covering me in hydraulic fluid :D

Anyway, subsequent investigation shows that in addition to the gear driven pump on the rear case, there is an engine driven pump on the rear left of the engine - presumably because it has a higher rating. The feed for this comes via the drain off plug (relief valve?) at the rear of the tractor and the return (pressure line) went to the 3 lever valve block. This, in turn, had a return line that is tapped into the fluid filler point on the back axle, so they are using the same fluid.

Because I needed the tractor moved and couldn't get any hoses locally, I pulled the pins from the loader and removed it (breaking a window in the process :(). I'm not too interested in using a loader but want the rear hydraulics to work.

Now, as it stands, the rear arms don't move at all - I'm sure they did a little bit before I disconnected the loader valve block (so the pump just circulates fluid?). I've taken the lift cover off and removed the flow metering valve, which was a fun job. The pipe with the banjo bolt on the end was loose and that's tightened up again. The dump valve doesn't appear to be stuck but with the large hex screw and spring removed there is a slight flow of oil when the engine runs. The levels are fine (if anything a bit high).

The PTO shaft runs continuously which isn't ideal. I've carefully tried stopping it with a piece of wood (with the lever in the disconnect position) but it's not free-wheeling, it's being driven.

I've had the engine running for a few minutes at high rpm to see if the pressure is just a bit slow to build, but no joy.

So, either my original pump is kaput or the loader pump is causing an issue.

HELP! :D
 
I'm going to take a WAG here as to what's going on. One thing is for sure though - if it truly is a 1970 4000, the hydraulic system you are
describing is NOT stock.

The pump on the LH rear of the engine is something that someone added, I assume to get a faster loader. I suspect that the oil from this
pump went straight into the loader valve, based on your description. If true, that oil still needs somewhere to go when you remove the
loader. Did the control valve come off with the loader, or did it stay on the tractor? A few pictures would be nice about right now.

As for the rear 3-point hitch not working, most likely this circuit remains as it was from the factory. If your hitch does not move at all,
suspect a stuck unload valve in the lift cylinder assembly. If it is simply very slow, then I'd be looking closely at a plugged intake
screen in the bottom of the sump.

Again, a few pics would be very helpful about right now.
 
Will post pictures in due course! I know it's not stock and I think we agree why the extra pump was added. I've reinstated the loader pipework so the pump outlet goes to the IN port and the OUT port (from the valve block) goes to the tapped filler on the rear axle. Just battling to connect a cylinder to confirm the pump is working.

The unload valve you mention - is this the one at the rear of the flow control block?
 
(quoted from post at 11:02:47 07/18/17) Would a 3-cylinder 4000 with an SOS have a pump on the left rear of the engine?
Click to expand...

Yes, but it wouldn't have the pump in the right side of the rear axle center housing.
 
(quoted from post at 09:40:31 07/18/17)
(quoted from post at 11:02:47 07/18/17) Would a 3-cylinder 4000 with an SOS have a pump on the left rear of the engine?
Click to expand...

Yes, but it wouldn't have the pump in the right side of the rear axle center housing.
Click to expand...

It's a UK built tractor with independent PTO. The manual states I should have a gear driven pump in the rear (ooer) and it's definitely there. Just not sure if it's working or whether intake is completely blocked. Can't work out how to remove relief valve in situ - it's too tight to get a socket in and the brakes are in the way so can't get a spanner on it
 
Don't waste your time with the relief valve, as these rarely fail. Even if it did, it should still raise the hitch empty.

The unload valve I'm referring to is in the lift cylinder assembly. If it sticks in the unload, or "dump" position, the hitch will not work
at all.

An easy way to tell is to crank the engine with the lift cover off. If the pump is working, it should shoot oil out of the tube in the front
RH corner of the axle housing. Better yet, stick a hose over this tube and then route it back into the sump while running the engine. In this
way you can gauge how much oil the pump is putting out.
 
(quoted from post at 11:28:32 07/18/17) Yes, but then it would NOT have a hydraulic pump in the rear axle housing.
Click to expand...

How so? Manual is quite clear on the matter and it's no different to many of the pictures out there (pump below the flow limiter).

pump%20description.png


Anyway, I can take the lift cover off again I suppose and try! Might take the pump off first as it's an easier job, albeit I'll have to drain the oil - will give me a chance to clean the inlet screen.

Some pictures here (damn you PhotoBucket...)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CzCriqiI7Ri5090K3

If the unload valve was stuck but the pump still pumped then that might explain the link arms not working but wouldn't the PTO clutch work?

Because I think the arms did raise VERY slowly before I had a chance to buy and top up the oil I'm wondering if the act of filling it has stirred up more crud and blocked the intake screen completely?

If it helps, I can easily lift the arms by hand.

The ram I've connected to the valve block doesn't operate very well but I'm guessing it's full of air and with no load there's possibly not enough pressure to self bleed. I need to buy a test gauge
 
Sauer Sundstrand engine driven pump was installed in 1997 according to the date stamp on it - tractor was built on October 9th, 1970
 
With regards to your "how so" comment, I said that it would not have a pump in the rear axle housing if it had a SOS transmission, which is a 10-speed powershift.

I looked at your pics - what a plumbing nightmare. Someone didn't design that very well. The photo of your plumbing that had the best angle
was washed out by sunlight, so I couldn't make out too many details. I did see however that someone installed a later model gear pump with
an integral suction filter, like they did on the 10 series tractors. I'm curious as to how they cleared the fuel tank with that.

The PTO issue is likely a completely separate problem, such as discs that are warped in the clutch pack.

Raising the lift arms by hand means nothing other than that your cross shaft is not seized in the bushings.

As I said in my last post, try to get a sense of pump flow by cranking the engine with the lift cover off.
 
Ah, it's not an SOS, it's an 8 speed. Plumbing isn't the best, no; but useful to have the extra pump and valves once I ensure everything is working.

With warped PTO clutch discs will it ever disengage or do they have to be replaced? I thought the PTO clutch required hydraulic pressure which is why it's not stopping? Maybe attaching an implement will shock it free?

I'll try the crank test tomorrow. When I reinstalled the lift cover I didn't tighten the bolts very much and it started leaking oil. It also came out of the tube between the pump and the flow valve thinking about it so must be some pressure. What does that indicate? Stuck valve somewhere?
 
If the discs in the PTO clutch are warped, then nothing short of replacing them will fix that problem. That said, I'd start with some
pressure tests of the system first.

As for the 3-point lift, if you truly are getting oil out of the rear axle pump, then your most likely problem is a stuck unloading valve in
the lift cylinder assembly. Since you say that you have a manual for this thing, look it up and you'll find it.
 
(quoted from post at 11:28:32 07/18/17) Yes, but then it would NOT have a hydraulic pump in the rear axle housing.
Click to expand...


How so? Manual is quite clear on the matter and it's no different to many of the pictures out there (pump below the flow limiter).
Click to expand...

I was responding to the question about the Select-O-Speed transmission. In those the independent PTO clutch pack is inside the transmission, not the rear end, and the 3 point hydraulic pump is mounted on the left rear of the engine.

If the unload valve was stuck but the pump still pumped then that might explain the link arms not working but wouldn't the PTO clutch work?
Click to expand...

Since yours has the 8 speed transmission the PTO clutch should be driven off of the rear section of the pump inside the rear end. The most common issue that causes the PTO to not stop spinning is that the clutch plates are warped so that they always exert pressure on each other and never disengage. There is a spring that normally disengages the clutch plates from each other when the control valve is in the disengaged position and when the valve is moved to the engaged position the hydraulics pressure overcomes the force of the spring and forces the plates against each other, but that range of motion is fairly small and when the plates warp they take up that space where they would normally be able to move through and so are always engaged with each other.
 
I apologise if I've offended anybody - think there has been some confusion over timings of postings - beauty of the Internet, I suppose!

Anyway, thank you for all your help so far. Looks like it's cover off again and have a go at freeing the unload valve by removing the lift cylinder. At least I know all the bolts come undone - just hope this fixes the issue. I'll probably take the pump out anyway whilst I'm under there first just to see what condition the inlet screen is - think it should be an easier job than taking the lift cylinder out
 
Well, took the lift cover off again and have removed the pump - hardest bit was getting the floor pan loose as it had been fitted with coach bolts which were too small for the square holes so just turned and had nowhere to grip - managed to squeeze an angle grinder in there and got them off in the end.

Pump was a tight squeeze to get out and I'll have to obtain/make another gasket for it. It looks OK - the relief valve looks clean, despite having quite a chewed up head. The gears turn anyway so don't think there's anything wrong with it - pretty simple device.

The manual recommends removing and cleaning the suction screen whenever the pump is removed. The oil didn't drain all the way to the bottom so the filter is partially obscured but from what I can see, it's pretty blocked. Can't work out how to get it out, though. It's loose (I've undone the bolt in the sidewall) but I can't manoeuvre it past the PTO shaft.

Haven't removed the lift cylinder yet to check that. Looks fairly straightforward taking it off but getting the unload valve out needs a special tool or a slide hammer, neither of which I have. I still think the suction filter is the culprit
 
(quoted from post at 22:13:59 07/19/17) Did you crank the engine over when you had the lift cover off to see if it would pump oil?
Click to expand...

Right. Thought getting the screen out to clean it might be a simple job but it will involve splitting the tractor and I don't have the equipment available to do that. The screen was completely clogged with dirt and I managed to get the top surface looking a bit cleaner with compressed air and kerosene but it's a stupid piece of design, frankly.

Managed to get the pump back in place and cranked the engine with the cover off. There was a flow of oil there, which is great. Wasn't the massive jet I was expecting but it was at least flowing. Put the lift cover back on again and after replacing a couple of O-rings under the accessory cover I got the arms to raise. This worked fine for a bit but has now stopped working again, which is ****** annoying.

I suspect the intake tube might not have been properly seated on the pump and has come off again as I can't believe the filter would clog so soon.

PTO operation was unaffected as you said.
 
I'm not 100% sure but I think you might be able to get the pickup tube and screen out without splitting the tractor by pulling the PTO shaft out of the rear of the tractor. I seem to remember someone saying that could be done on that model, but maybe it was the S-O-S model they were talking about since all that's there on the S-O-S model is the shaft, and with the 8 speed the clutch pack is there as well.

Another thing you might consider if you have the cover off again since you're concerned that there's still gunk in there that might be clogging things up is is a complete drain and flush of the rear axle sump using a pump sprayer and a mixture of 1 gallon of diesel fluid, and a pint each of ATF and acetone. Leave the drain plug out while you're spraying so everything will flush right down the drain hole.
 
I'll have a look at pulling the PTO. Pump still pumping but not quickly. How much flow should I expect?
 
Pulling the rear PTO shaft will gain you nothing. It's the clutch drum that's in the way, and that only comes out by split...

Rod
 
I'll leave the PTO for a bit, then.

Oddly, after I drained most of the oil by fiddling with the PTO, the arms lifted very slowly. Had it again on very low rpm but increasing revs makes things worse. I'm baffled. Think a split is in order to make sure there's no crud in either filter and hopefully sort out the new leak from the pump relief valve.

My oil is a bit milky, to be expected for the age. Is this likely to stop the hydraulics working at all or just slow them down?
 
Here's what I'd do: I would take the tube that connects the rear axle housing to the lift cover, and shove that in the axle housing. I'd then
clamp a rubber hose over the top of it, and direct it back into the housing. This way I can start the engine and run it, looking for a
consistent flow. I can even direct the flow into a bucket and get a rough idea as to the GPM. If your screen is plugged, you'll have low
flow.
 
I've tried that, although I didn't measure the flow with a jug or anything, which might have been sensible. Can't measure the RPM of the engine at the moment, which doesn't help. Have received a digital RPM meter which I'm hoping will let me set the revs a bit more accurately.

More convinced it is the filter now. When I start the tractor having left it sitting for a while, the link arms lift on command, albeit very slowly. Increasing the revs stops the movement so I think the filter is filling up with fluid but at a very slow rate and trying to increase the revs is just causing cavitation in the pump. I don't know if there's enough space to fit an unfiltered supply pipe into the back of the pump, with all the risks that entails but mine has a cab so splitting the tractor isn't as simple as it first appears (which isn't very simple!)
 
Ditto!!!!

Plus, if he's already been mucking with that flow control valve that may be stuck too.

Rod
 
They don't have a filter as such. Those things have a trash strainer. If it's plugged with slime then a split is about the only cure that I
can recall...

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 12:37:28 07/20/17) They don't have a filter as such. Those things have a trash strainer. If it's plugged with slime then a split is about the only cure that I
can recall...

Rod
Click to expand...

It is looking that way.
Have uploaded a picture to my Google account but can't show it here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QDRWAu9RgL1ZLN0F2

I have a cab on mine which is going to complicate the split. Any idea which end is best to move? Thinking front end as I can steer it then - a temporary frame with wheels would be useful
 
I looked at your pic - that filter looks pretty plugged up all right. I bet you'd like to shoot the engineer who designed that, but I'm sure
he's already dead. I also watched your video also - flow is very poor. Plugged screen for sure.

As for the split, I think I would consider rolling the rear end out, given the loader frame on the front. You don't really need to steer
anything if you roll it back straight.
 
Loader frame is removed. Cab might be an issue. Wiring might just get cut.

Having trouble removing pedals - the handbrake cam in between the 2 brake pedals won't come off. I think the end of the shaft might need filing
 
Finally got the tractor split in half - was a lot easier once I undid the clutch pedal connecting rod! Getting it back together again may be a trial but that's for another day.

Have removed the offending filter and it is completely blocked with crud - something quite fibrous so whether it's a cloth that's been stuffed down there at some point or a filter that's broken down elsewhere, I don't know. Have ordered replacement screw in filter for the engine driven pump anyway. Filter currently in soak in kerosene and can at least see through it now. It's pretty crushed and not something I can find a replacement part for. Could be the negative pressure from the pump or the same ham fisted idiot who has wrecked other bits of the tractor (not me!). Might look at making an alternative somehow but it'll have to go back on for now.

Have taken the hydraulic pump and metering valve off again so I can replace the gaskets that were not in a good state. Had a leak from the pump relief valve which looks like it's been removed with a cold chisel at some point. Valve seems OK as far as I can tell and I've cleaned it up a bit and added an O-ring which I'm hoping will help with the leak. Inlet to pump is a bit damaged - it's either been dropped in the past or someone has attacked it in frustration at not being able to get the pickup filter out.

Also damaged the pressure tube that joins the top lift cover to the rear axle so new one of those on order!

Would post PhotoBucket photos but they've blocked me and are being greedy as I'm sure you're aware. They're uploaded to my Google album anyway:

https://goo.gl/photos/YN9dL1Sb51k1YJNk8
 
Well, I've reinstalled the pump and control valve with the strainer cleaned as best as I can (replacements just don't seem to be available, unfortunately). It can't be any worse and at least with all new gaskets the chances of leaks are minimised. Found a washer I'd dropped previously too which is now back in the right place (the one for the banjo bolt on the back of the flow control valve).

Inside of casing was sprayed with diesel (or possibly kerosene - can isn't marked) to flush out as much loose dirt as I could - still not sure where all the crud came from - I suspect someone stuffed a rag in there at one point and it has been chewed up by the gears.

Now struggling to get the two halves of the tractor back into one piece again. Should be quite straightforward with help but awkward on my own. Rear end is surprisingly manoeuvrable by shouldering the rear tyres.

New front filter hasn't arrived yet anyway so wouldn't be running her today even if I could get it together
 
Finally got the 2 halves back together again using 3 hydraulic jacks and a bit of brute force. Used some longer bolts to help guide it together and had to blip the starter to get the pump gear engaged so hoping I haven't broken anything in doing so!

Tomorrow I'll be installing the other 6 bolts and tightening them to the proper torque so I can start actually putting things back on again!
 
ave removed the offending filter and it is completely blocked with crud - something quite fibrous so whether it's a cloth that's been stuffed down there at some point or a filter that's broken down elsewhere, I don't know.
Click to expand...

It is most likely the brake disks that have deteriorated over time. They are inside the fat part of each axle shaft housing (trumpet) and get cooled by the same fluid that lubricates the differential and planetary gears and is also used as hydraulic fluid for the 3 point lift system. If the brakes have never been replaced the pickup screen for the hydraulics is likely to get clogged again as the brakes will continue to come apart. Best bet is to pull the trumpets and replace the brakes and then rinse down the inside of the rear axle trumpets and center housing good before you refill it.
 

I hadn't seen this post before tonight and wish I had.
The suction screen on my 4000 had collapsed many years ago, new ones where available then but very pricey (over $300).
I found that the external filter adapter and pump intake tube for a 4600 was a direct replacement for the internal suction screen giving one a easy to replace external filter.
I have an adapter and intake tube from a 3930 layed back to go in my 4000SU when I need to split the tractor
 
(quoted from post at 18:27:25 08/16/17)
I hadn't seen this post before tonight and wish I had.
The suction screen on my 4000 had collapsed many years ago, new ones where available then but very pricey (over $300).
I found that the external filter adapter and pump intake tube for a 4600 was a direct replacement for the internal suction screen giving one a easy to replace external filter.
I have an adapter and intake tube from a 3930 layed back to go in my 4000SU when I need to split the tractor
Click to expand...

Any photos or part numbers? I had wondered about an external filter but couldn't see where it might go - the circular access panel the strainer is bolted too doesn't seem low enough
 

Sorry I'm unable to attach links or photos.

The filter support # 83984592 shows to be still available $202
The suction tube #81846196 also shows to be available $110

The support bolts on in place of the small three bolt cover on the left side, it has a drop down suction tube made into it to pull had oil from the bottom of the sump, it also has a built in check valve allowing filter changes without draining the rear axle.

This filter support (adapter) and tube where used on 4600, 3910, 4610, 3930, 4630 tractors with 8 spd trans.
I suggest you check around at some tractor salvage yards, probably not a lot of call for them unless some one runs over something and breaks one off which is hard to do.
I've ran over some pretty big stuff brush hogging and bent a couple of filters but so far haven't broke a filter support.
 
That's great, thank you.

Got it all bolted up and torqued properly, refilled with oil and started the tractor. Pressure seemed pretty good so put the lift cover back on (they're pretty heavy, aren't they?). Arms now raise and lower and the loader rams seem to work too so perhaps the old screw on filter on the engine pump was blocked or broken down? I'll take it apart when I have a moment and see :)
 
Have sourced a conversion kit. Got the loader back on too and it raises smoothly. Haven't put the bucket back on yet but the hoses don't look in very good nick so will be surprised if they don't leak
 
(quoted from post at 02:27:25 08/17/17)

I found that the external filter adapter and pump intake tube for a 4600 was a direct replacement for the internal suction screen giving one a easy to replace external filter.
Click to expand...

It's not. It won't fit through the hole in the casting
 
(quoted from post at 08:13:37 11/22/17)
(quoted from post at 02:27:25 08/17/17)

I found that the external filter adapter and pump intake tube for a 4600 was a direct replacement for the internal suction screen giving one a easy to replace external filter.
Click to expand...

It's not. It won't fit through the hole in the casting
Click to expand...

Are you saying you couldn't get your adapter to fit?
I installed mine in 2000, don't remember every detail on how I installed it but it fit without a lot of work. I removed one from a 3930 I scrapped out a couple years ago, other than the dip stick tube it appears to be the same.
I'm thinking I had to rotate it to a particular position to remove it and may have had the same issue back then while installing mine.
Did you have the foot board removed when you tried installing the adapter?
 
Are you saying you couldn't get your adapter to fit?
I installed mine in 2000, don't remember every detail on how I installed it but it fit without a lot of work.
Click to expand...

I had to remove a small portion of the axle casing (about 1/2"x1/4") to let it in. Floor plate and pedal completely out of the way.

Issue I have now is trying to get the PTO valve back in (I took it out to increase clearance to get the old filter out)... it's dark now in the UK so going to have to work on it tomorrow
 
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