3500 3 Point to 4500?

jaluhn

Member
Will the rear end cover/3 point lift assembly from a 3500 fit on a 4500? Both are 1967 w/ 3 cylinder diesel. The 3500 is a SOS trans, 4500 is a 4x4 manual reversing type.

I'm thinking of selling the 3500 to reduce the collection a bit and since the 4500 will do a bit more, but the one thing the 3500 has the bigger one doesn't is a 3 point. The Messick's online parts catalog seems to suggest the cover is the same for 2000/3000/4000, but the detailed info isn't loading where I could actually compare part numbers.

Not sure what I'd do for hydraulics. Will the 3500 engine mount pump and lines swap? Concerns I would have are if it has the drive gear on the back of the cam and how to get everything hooked up - IIRC the lines connect to the lower case, not the top cover. Might be able to tap into the main hydraulic system instead but would have to run a flow diverter I think and I'm not sure what you'd have to do to get return oil back into the main sump.

Thanks,
~John
 
I tried a couple of times to write something
helpful here but ended up with more
questions than answers.
Why don't you email me your phone # and the
best time to call. I Might be able to help
some though I don't know it all by any
means.
 

I don't know if a 3000's lift top will physically fit on a 4500's rear axle housing or not. They show to have different part numbers for the top, rock shaft and piston. My guess is a 4000 would have a larger rock shaft and piston for a higher lift capacity and the larger rock draft would need a different top housing. If that's the case a 3000 lift top would fit but not have the lifting capacity of a 4000.

I added hydraulic lift to my 4500 but it came off of a 4000 SOS tractor.
Mine had a replacement engine that had the pump gear on the cam, you'll just have to pull the cover plate to see if your's has one.

Looking in my old parts book in section 10 if your's is the older model with the bolt on manifold, there appears to be a difference in the pipes connecting the pump to the housing.
3000 piping goes straight into the manifold while the 400 pipes hang lower and fit into a dropped manifold.
I can only guess this lowered piping is to clear something that is different on a 4000 which I suspect is the brake linkage.

If the 3000 lift top will bolt on I don't think the average user will ever have a problem with the lighter lift capacity. A 3000 will pickup a 1000 lb round bale and carry a 6 ft brush hog.
If you have the gear the pump will bolt on and work.
Don't know if you can make your piping fit or not, you may have to find the pipes off of a junked 4000 SOS.

Side Note: I looked into putting a pto on my 4500 but it would cost to much, My 6x4 manual reverser trans uses a different input shaft and other parts than a standard 8x2, it would be cheaper to swap in a 8x2 trans and at that point one may as well go with the 4000's hydraulics.
If your 4500 has a pto, bonus for you.
 
It looks like the top cover from a 3000 series will fit on a 4000 series because the top cover gasket is the same part number for both, but the right side of the center housing on the 4500 might not have the proper holes for the lines from the engine mounted pump. Most 4000 series center housings had the large lower hole on the right side for the gear pump. Only the center housings on S-O-S models, and possibly the power reversing models that came with a 3 point lift (if they ever made any of those), had the same holes on the right side below the flow control valve for the lines from the engine mounted pump to connect to. When a manual reversing model came from the factory with a 3 point lift, I am pretty sure that it had the gear pump in the right side of the center housing, so if yours doesn't have a lift now it probably has a large round blank plate where the gear pump would go, or where the holes for lines from an engine mounted pump would go on any 3000 series or an S-O-S 4000 model.
 

Sean may have something there.
A 4000's internal pump mounts up high which would require a dropped manifold for the pipes to connect to under the foot board.
My 4500 without 3 pt lift has the same center housing as my other 4000's.
My standard 4000 had SOS trans when I got it in 91, in 2000 I converted the tractor to 8 spd manual using the trans and center section from a 4200. I had also just bought the 4500 disassembled needing the engine overhauled. Not having the backhoe for the 4500 I decided to install a 3 pt lift system. Without the pto drive there's no way to use a 4000's internal pump but I had a complete hydraulic lift system from the SOS and decided to try using it. The entire hydraulic lift system from the 4000 SOS was a direct bolt on to the 4500.
 
Thanks.

My books do say the 4000 cylinder is slightly bigger - 3.1 vs 3" or something similar - probably not that much difference in lift capacity.

I found a decent deal on a parts 4000 locally with a 3 point so I think I'll just go that route.

The parts tractor I'm looking at is a SOS trans, so it has the engine pump and lines. Question - is the rear end housing different or does it just some sort of an adapter where the large plate is on the 4500? I'd prefer not to have to mess around swapping out the rear axle casting.

It will be good to keep the 3500 with the 3 point. It's very useful to have the ability to drop the backhoe and use a 3 point with only a bit of work, although the 3500 is somewhat lacking in traction. Hopefully the 4500 will be better. If nothing else, the 4500 has a differential lock and the 3500 doesn't. Probably wind up selling the 3500 or giving it to my dad down the road - excessive to have both and I will need to move in a few years. Go to fix the 755 backhoe through. Both came with a hoe, 723 on the 3500 and 755 on the 4500. The 4500 has been beat pretty good including the hoe. Biggest thing is the main backhoe frame was cracked pretty badly and half-a** welded, which I discovered shortly after getting it when I pretty much broke the whole frame in 2.... so now I've got the 723 hoe on the 4500 and the big hoe is waiting for me to strip the frame down, pull all the bodged patches off and properly weld it up.
 
3500 has a PTO, 4500 doesn't. The part 4000 does, but it's a SOS trans so not going to be of much use. I can't think of where I'd really need a PTO though. If I really needed on I'd probably just run it hydraulically since I've got the big pump and hoses run back aft already.
 

As I said everything from my old 4000 SOS bolted to the 4500, nothing extra was needed nor where any modifications needed.
The hydraulic line manifold bolts on in place of the cover plate which is the same hole the pump goes in on a 4000 with 8x2 trans. Only thing you'll need to make sure you have is the cam drive gear.

You'll need wheel weights and loaded tires on the 4500 without the hoe, the 4500's loader adds a lot of weight to the front end. I had loaded tires but no weights, at times it got a little sketchy going down a hill.
The loader frame had been broke and welded in several places, many of those welds where worse than I would make, so recently we removed the loader, made up new mounts and installed a Farm Hand 22 light weight loader, all we do with the 4500 is move and feed round bale hay for our cattle so a heavy loader wasn't needed.
I have a 85 hp tracked skid loader for any dirt work I need to do.
 

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