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Jubilee rear axle bearing preload

C

cgun

Member
I replaced rear axle seals and brakes. Bearings and race looked good. I added shims until could not move the axles. After finishing I checked the side play by pushing and pulling the tires. There is a small movement, not visible, but I can feel and hear it bump. I am fairly certain it is not the hub and shaft loose.

I think this could be the two axles bumping together but not constantly touching. Should I try to correct this with more shims?

The book tolerance for preload is .002 to .006. How can I get this when thr thinnest shim is .010?

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Cgun
 
I think you're misreading the manual. You want end play between those two axle shafts, not preload. If you have a small amount of movement,
and it's not the hub loose on the shaft, then you're probably about right.

Also, the fact that the thinnest shim is .010" has nothing to do with the spec you listed. You shim as needed to get the reading the book
wants.
 

Preload, to me, is axial bearing tightness (no movement in the bearing). So if you shoot for .002/.006 end play then there is no preload on either bearing.

The book states you set the “preload” as one unit (both axles). It seems in order to do that the axle ends would have to be touching.

Since the only thing that keeps each axle/hub/wheel assembly from sliding inward is the opposite shaft end (without the hub hitting bearing). Then it seems that the .002/.006 is the clearance between the two axles.

Then the bearings would always have clearance.

Is this correct or have I misinterpreted the book’s meaning?

If so please let me know what it should be.

Thanks for any info.

Cgun
 
(quoted from post at 11:32:21 11/07/17)
Preload, to me, is axial bearing tightness (no movement in the bearing). So if you shoot for .002/.006 end play then there is no preload on either bearing.

The book states you set the “preload” as one unit (both axles). It seems in order to do that the axle ends would have to be touching.

Since the only thing that keeps each axle/hub/wheel assembly from sliding inward is the opposite shaft end (without the hub hitting bearing). Then it seems that the .002/.006 is the clearance between the two axles.

Then the bearings would always have clearance.

Is this correct or have I misinterpreted the book’s meaning?

If so please let me know what it should be.

Thanks for any info.

Cgun
Click to expand...
End play, end play, ...NOT pre-load.
 
Think of it this way: Yes, the axle shaft ends can and do touch each other, however, if you were able to go inside with a feeler gauge, you should be able to shove a .002 - .006" feeler gauge in between them. If there was preload between the bearings, there would be no way to do that.
 
(quoted from post at 09:41:17 11/07/17) Think of it this way: Yes, the axle shaft ends can and do touch each other, however, if you were able to go inside with a feeler gauge, you should be able to shove a .002 - .006" feeler gauge in between them. If there was preload between the bearings, there would be no way to do that.
Click to expand...

Then why do most of the discussions on this topic talk about “preload”?
 
(quoted from post at 13:05:24 11/07/17)
(quoted from post at 09:41:17 11/07/17) Think of it this way: Yes, the axle shaft ends can and do touch each other, however, if you were able to go inside with a feeler gauge, you should be able to shove a .002 - .006" feeler gauge in between them. If there was preload between the bearings, there would be no way to do that.
Click to expand...

Then why do most of the discussions on this topic talk about “preload”?
Click to expand...
ou can't believe everything you see on the internet. Many things that some believe to be true, simply are not!
 
So it must be true: Believe nothing you read and half of what you see?

Also one other thing I want to confirm. If the ideal situation is .002/.006 clearance between ends of axle, and the shims are .010, .0012 and .015 thick then you have to depend on pure luck to get within the range or have axle ends rubbing or real bearing preload.

Thanks,

Cgun
 
A false endplay/preload will always be gotten with both wheels on tractor wheather on or off ground. The service manuel says setting with wheels off.
 
(quoted from post at 11:56:05 11/07/17) A false endplay/preload will always be gotten with both wheels on tractor wheather on or off ground. The service manuel says setting with wheels off.
Click to expand...

I set the end play with the wheels and brake drum off.

What keeps the axles from rubbing when there is side pressure on the wheels?

Thanks
Cgun
 

The transmission must be engaged to check the opposite wheel rotation. Is this right?

Thanks

Cgun
 
On first question they are going to rub anyway. They get enough lube keep lubed. Only time make any difference is when spinning one wheel a lot. On second it doesn't make much difference. With in gear it will do it eaiser.
 
(quoted from post at 21:24:23 11/07/17) On first question they are going to rub anyway. They get enough lube keep lubed. Only time make any difference is when spinning one wheel a lot. On second it doesn't make much difference. With in gear it will do it eaiser.
Click to expand...

Mine checks, out of gear: no turn, in gear: opposite turn
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:07 11/08/17)
(quoted from post at 21:24:23 11/07/17) On first question they are going to rub anyway. They get enough lube keep lubed. Only time make any difference is when spinning one wheel a lot. On second it doesn't make much difference. With in gear it will do it eaiser.
Click to expand...

Mine checks, out of gear: no turn, in gear: opposite turn
Click to expand...

It has to be out of gear to check it. With the transmission in gear it will ALWAYS turn opposite directions thru the spider gears. The bearing preload setting can be positive or negative. In this case the manual calls for 2-6 endplay, or negative preload.
 
(quoted from post at 15:08:26 11/08/17)
(quoted from post at 16:52:07 11/08/17)
(quoted from post at 21:24:23 11/07/17) On first question they are going to rub anyway. They get enough lube keep lubed. Only time make any difference is when spinning one wheel a lot. On second it doesn't make much difference. With in gear it will do it eaiser.
Click to expand...

Mine checks, out of gear: no turn, in gear: opposite turn
Click to expand...

It has to be out of gear to check it. With the transmission in gear it will ALWAYS turn opposite directions thru the spider gears. The bearing preload setting can be positive or negative. In this case the manual calls for 2-6 endplay, or negative preload.
Click to expand...

If out of gear and shaft ends do not touch what causes the other wheel to turn in opposite direction?
 
If out of gear and shaft ends do not touch what causes the other wheel to turn in opposite direction?
Click to expand...

The turning in opposite directions has nothing to do with the ends of the axle shafts touching each other. The differential causes them to always turn in opposite directions unless there is enough external force not allowing that to happen, like when both wheels are on the ground and the transmission is driving one axle shaft forward, at that point the friction from the ground cause the other wheel to turn in the same direction, and thus the other axle shaft turns in the same direction also.
 
(quoted from post at 18:00:55 11/08/17)
If out of gear and shaft ends do not touch what causes the other wheel to turn in opposite direction?
Click to expand...

The turning in opposite directions has nothing to do with the ends of the axle shafts touching each other. The differential causes them to always turn in opposite directions unless there is enough external force not allowing that to happen, like when both wheels are on the ground and the transmission is driving one axle shaft forward, at that point the friction from the ground cause the other wheel to turn in the same direction, and thus the other axle shaft turns in the same direction also.
Click to expand...

Ok what’s wrong when I have both wheels off ground and turn one and the other does not turn either way?
 
(quoted from post at 02:19:36 11/09/17)
(quoted from post at 18:00:55 11/08/17)
If out of gear and shaft ends do not touch what causes the other wheel to turn in opposite direction?
Click to expand...

The turning in opposite directions has nothing to do with the ends of the axle shafts touching each other. The differential causes them to always turn in opposite directions unless there is enough external force not allowing that to happen, like when both wheels are on the ground and the transmission is driving one axle shaft forward, at that point the friction from the ground cause the other wheel to turn in the same direction, and thus the other axle shaft turns in the same direction also.
Click to expand...

Ok what’s wrong when I have both wheels off ground and turn one and the other does not turn either way?
Click to expand...

It's too loose. Take some shim out.
 
When people don't have even the slightest clue of how a differential works, they should just walk away and forget it, or learn. If it is in gear and the shims are so little as to have the axle ends bound tightly together, then when you try to turn either wheel you will encounter great resistance. If in neutral (same shim situation) both will turn same direction, as the axle ends have them locked together. Now, with more shims , where axle shims do not force axle ends tightly together, if in gear, & you turn one wheel, the other will rotate in the opposite direction (standard differential operation). Same conditions, but in neutral...now you can not predict what will happen, because you don't know what friction exist in the transmission gears/lubricants/etc.. If enough, may turn in opposite direction, if not enough, may turn in same direction. So, put the sucker in gear!
 
(quoted from post at 21:22:20 11/08/17) When people don't have even the slightest clue of how a differential works, they should just walk away and forget it, or learn. If it is in gear and the shims are so little as to have the axle ends bound tightly together, then when you try to turn either wheel you will encounter great resistance. If in neutral (same shim situation) both will turn same direction, as the axle ends have them locked together. Now, with more shims , where axle shims do not force axle ends tightly together, if in gear, & you turn one wheel, the other will rotate in the opposite direction (standard differential operation). Same conditions, but in neutral...now you can not predict what will happen, because you don't know what friction exist in the transmission gears/lubricants/etc.. If enough, may turn in opposite direction, if not enough, may turn in same direction. So, put the sucker in gear!
Click to expand...

So, you’re saying wheel rotation should always be checked with it in gear?
 
(quoted from post at 20:20:49 11/09/17)
(quoted from post at 21:22:20 11/08/17) When people don't have even the slightest clue of how a differential works, they should just walk away and forget it, or learn. If it is in gear and the shims are so little as to have the axle ends bound tightly together, then when you try to turn either wheel you will encounter great resistance. If in neutral (same shim situation) both will turn same direction, as the axle ends have them locked together. Now, with more shims , where axle shims do not force axle ends tightly together, if in gear, & you turn one wheel, the other will rotate in the opposite direction (standard differential operation). Same conditions, but in neutral...now you can not predict what will happen, because you don't know what friction exist in the transmission gears/lubricants/etc.. If enough, may turn in opposite direction, if not enough, may turn in same direction. So, put the sucker in gear!
Click to expand...

So, you’re saying wheel rotation should always be checked with it in gear?
Click to expand...
hat is the way I see it. We don't all seem to agree. Let us examine your situation where you turned one wheel and the other wheel did not turn at all, in either direction. Unless an axle or gears missing or broken, I expect that something was somewhat bound on that non-spinning side (maybe brakes?), so now when you turned the other, the motion had to go somewhere & the somewhere was thru the differential, ring & pinion and into spinning the transmission output shaft and connected gears. That couldn't have happened if you had put transmission in gear.
 
I don't know what kind of bearings are in the axle, but I have experienced some load setup. In the vehicles I have worked on tapered roller bearings usually don't have a preload. When I worked on a Karman Ghias the torque on the axle nut was just a very light finger tight.

On my 57 Chevrolet a torque wrench was used to set torque on the axle nut to 33 foot pounds. (I checked the specs) The difference is the 57 Chevrolet has ball bearings.

I don't know whether the same rules apply to all tractor axles, but my Dexta specs say the shaft should have a few thousandths end play on the tapered roller bearings and it does.

I do know what happens when there is greater than 30 or more foot pounds on some roller bearings. I was working on a Datsun 310 front wheel drive and it called to tighten the front axle nut to this spec.(I don't remember the exact torque). There is a spacer that actually determines the end play on these, but that spacer had been removed by a previous owner or mechanic. Within a couple of weeks the wheel on the left side starting roaring.

The two timken roller bearings were spalled because the torque was applied directly to the two roller bearings and they are large compared to Karman Ghia front axle bearings.

The right axle was okay because it still had the spacer so no preload was placed directly on these bearings.

.
 
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