Speaking of UTF oil for these tractors...

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member
Location
Twin Cities
I didn't want to hijack Crazy8's thread below.
This 303 stuff is new to me. And I haven't seen this label before.
It does say for use in transmission and final drive systems as well as hydraulic systems. It says for Ford on the label but does not specify it's a suitable replacement for 134D.
But the "expensive" ($46/pail) stuff they sell at Fleet Farm does not specify 134D either. Used to but not anymore. Just says Ford along with other brands.
I bought 2 extra pails of 303 the other night because I want to change the utf in my Select O Speed.
What do you SOS gurus say about that?
Should I use it or return it and buy something else.
Thanks
 

This might provide a clue why I favor Hy Gard. Never the less it has transformed the Selecto O Speed into a Smooth O Shift and the Jumping Pedal into a Smooth Pedal that doesn't hit you in the shins. Are you about to barf, Larry?
a176481.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 04:26:48 10/28/17) This 303 stuff is new to me. It says for Ford on the label but does not specify it's a suitable replacement for 134D. Should I use it or return it and buy something else.

Take it back. Tony Jacobs has covered this topic ad nauseam. I for one am heeding his advice. Valvoline W813. Not cheap but the extra $50 isn't worth digging into your transmission. At our age, it's better to do this when we want to, not when we have to.
 
Are you going to really work the snot out of the tractor? If so, get the good oil. Most of us probably will never work our tractors hard enough, long enough to have a significant problem with the cheaper oil.
 
FWIW. Local Farm and Home has CAM2 303 in the sale flyer in todays mail. It says "Multi service oil recommended for use where service requirements are normal to moderate and long-term heavy duty protection is not critical.
 
Back in 1972 Ford had 3 different hyd oils. M2C53A for gear trans and hyds. M2C41A for SOS and power steering. M2C48A for B/H loader hyds. The 53 was a dark brown oil, 41 was redish like Hy-Tran. 48 was yellowish like R and O. So this generic oil would work fine in these older machines. 303 is a old JD oil from 60s. Most of there units have wet brakes as were most 40+ hp. All mfgs have made there oils to fit higher torques and temps and hyd pressures/volumes.
 
Well I think if you have a tractor that is that sensitive to price or brand you should just get rid of it! Those old tractors should run on goats milk.
 
The "303" oils are bottom of the barrel oils. The 303 refers to a long obsolete JD specification that pre-dates UTF type oils and certainly does not qualify as one. They are nowhere close to being a UTF or an equivalent to Ford M2C-134 most notably becaue they have a viscosity index around 90 and are unsuitable for use at temperatures below 32F. Most even say that on the label. If you think the quality of the oil you put in your machine doesn't matter it's the oil for you. If you want an oil that has performance characteristics like the Ford or JD products spend an extra $5-10 bucks for a 5 gallon pail of just about any premium UTF.

tOH
 
I use the cheap 303 in the naa and other tractors that are pretty primitive inside, just gears and a very basic hydraulic system with minimal heat, plus the tractor sees pretty light service usually. However for a sos I would definitely buy something better as they have some pretty intricate and irreplaceable parts and some pretty sensitive parts to proper friction modifiers and such.
 
Fellows,
Thanks.
You've got me leaning towards returning at least one pail of this and finding one that says 134D for the transmission. I don't mind risking the rest of the tractor to inferior oil but the SOS is still marvelous and enigmatic enough to me that I'll play it safe.
TOH,
I don't remember seeing you on this board before.
You often state that 134D has a viscosity of 90W or so. I've never agreed with that and think it pours like about 30W.
A couple of years ago we talked (argued?) about it on the N board so I did an experiment.
I took 3 plastic water bottles and drilled a 1/8" hole in the bottom. Then I put tape over the hole. I poured 1 cup of 85W90, a cup of 134D and a cup of 30W into one of them.
Then I fashioned a way to pull the tape off of all 3 bottles simultaneously, while filming it with my camera.
Was going to put the results on youtube.
My contrivance for pulling the tape wasn't the best and my camera work was shoddy so after about 4 tries and a lot of oil wasted I gave up on the video.
But if you did that same experiment to your own satisfaction I am certain you will find that 134D is Much thinner than 90W and much closer to the 30W in its pour time.
Just one of those things that sticks in my memory that I'm sure there is a correct answer for.
 
Several years ago, I heard what sounded like oil boiling in my 7600 when it got good and hot, and the brakes began to grab in my 4630. This was after oil changes in each using the same batch of 134 from the dealer. (I bought the 4630 new, and never used anything but 134, never any grabbing) I still use 134 in those tractors if that's all I have, but I would never use it in any SOS; I use Valvoline 813.

Zeke B.
 
I did not read the other posts thoroughly, but will pass along this advice; DO NOT USE ANY FLUID THAT IS NOT THE SPECIFIED TYPE. If you do, this transmission will fail.
 




And the specified oil is M2C41A. Any oil the meets or exceeds the M2C41A will be work per FORD.


However the M2C41A is a very old specification and there are a LOT of better oils out there. But there are also oils that are not designed for wet brakes or wet clutches as they are TOO good,, have too many friction modifiers and will cause slipping.

To say you have to go to new holland and pay $70 bucks for 5 gallons of fluid..... I would do my research first.
 

https://fluidsinc.net/products/tractor-hydraulic

Here is a $23.50 per 5 gallon fluid that specifically meets the ford spec for the SOS.... And ironically meets the newer spec for new holland....

and http://catalog.parentpetroleum.com/item/castrol-transmission-fluids/castrol-universal-tractor-fluids-utf-/20167

meets the spec...

and..Ford M2C134-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-C Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-D Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C41-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C41-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C48-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C53-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C77A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-C Pennzoil Hydra-tranz

And...
http://images.peakauto.com/PEAK_Universal%20Tractor%20Fluid%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf

And...
http://www.deckmanoil.com/blue_ribbon_specs/UniversalTractorHydraulicFluid.pdf

Point being.. there are lots of equivalent fluids out there. and None of them are $70 for 5 gallons.

HOWEVER!!!!!!
[b:abbfba2716]SuperTrac 303 Tractor Hydraulic Fluid
is recommended for ambient temperatures between +32°F
and 104°F (0°C to 40°C).[/b:abbfba2716] For ambient temperatures outside this range or where a premium tractor
hydraulic/transmission oil is required, please use Super S Premium Universal
Tractor Hydraulic
Fluid.
Misapplication may cause severe performance problems. [b:abbfba2716]303 Tractor Hydraulic Fluid has not
been recommended by any OEM for model years later than 1974. For equipment built after 1974 [/b:abbfba2716]
requiring multi-functional fluid, use Super S Premium Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluid (J20C)


[u:abbfba2716][/u:abbfba2716][u:abbfba2716][/u:abbfba2716]
 
(quoted from post at 22:56:10 10/28/17)
TOH,
I don't remember seeing you on this board before.
You often state that 134D has a viscosity of 90W or so. I've never agreed with that and think it pours like about 30W.
A couple of years ago we talked (argued?) about it on the N board so I did an experiment.
I took 3 plastic water bottles and drilled a 1/8" hole in the bottom. Then I put tape over the hole. I poured 1 cup of 85W90, a cup of 134D and a cup of 30W into one of them.
Then I fashioned a way to pull the tape off of all 3 bottles simultaneously, while filming it with my camera.
Was going to put the results on youtube.
My contrivance for pulling the tape wasn't the best and my camera work was shoddy so after about 4 tries and a lot of oil wasted I gave up on the video.
But if you did that same experiment to your own satisfaction I am certain you will find that 134D is Much thinner than 90W and much closer to the 30W in its pour time.
Just one of those things that sticks in my memory that I'm sure there is a correct answer for.

I don't post here often because the only Ford tractors I own are a couple of N-series. But the topic was about something that interests me so I jumped in. I spent the last 30 odd years of my life as a researcher at the foremost measurement laboratory in the USA and quite possibly the world so I applaud your attempt at empirical measurement. Your setup (a crude capillary viscometer) is how it's actually done in the laboratory. That said I don't need to run the experiment - it's already been done many many times and the results are published by almost every oil manufacturer. It's part of the viscosity grading process that all lubricating oils go through and the measurements can be found in their Product Data Sheets. However, in those laboratory certified tests both the setup and interpretation of results was done correctly. Let me explain. Your primary mistake in your measurements is measuring flow rate at ambient temperature. Both engine and gear oil viscosity grades specify viscosity measured at 100C and to get a meaningful comparison athe measurements have to be done at that temperature. In order to do that accurately the oil and test apparatus needs to be heated and maintained at 100C (within less than a degree variance for the duration) which is tough to do in your garage. I can assure you it makes a huge difference in the observed outcomes.

My actual assertion with regard to M2C-134D and its generic UTF cousins is that they are fundamentally a Grade SAE 80 GL-4 gear oil and I stand by that. Let me explain:
  • [*:6e1f888744]The kinematic viscosity of M2C-134D as specified by the current/last manufacturer is 9.6 cSt measured at 100C[*:6e1f888744]The viscosity measurement specified by the SAE for a grade 80 gear oil is (7-10.9) cSt measured at 100C[*:6e1f888744] The viscosity specified by the SAE for a grade 30 engine oil is (9.3 - 12.4) cSt measured at 100C[/list:eek::6e1f888744]So from a simple viscosity standpoint SAE 80 gear oil, M2C-134D and it's UTF cousins, and SAE 30 engine oil have nearly identical kinematic temperatures[u:6e1f888744] when at operating temperature[/u:6e1f888744]. Couple that with the fact that M2C-134D and premium UTF's also have a robust EP additive package and you wind up with something very close to a mild EP SAE 80 gear oil. That of course is Ford M4864-A which in the 50's and early 60's was what Ford was specifying for use in the transmissions of virtually all of their Hundred and Thousand series tractors.

    Which brings us to the "303" stuff that drew me into this discussion. How does it stack up with those other oils? There are a number of different manufacture's of the 303 stuff but their product datasheets are remarkably consistent:[list:6e1f888744][*:6e1f888744]SAE grade 20 (e.g. 6.9 - 9.2 cSt @ 100C)[*:6e1f888744]Viscosity index 61 minimum[/list:u:6e1f888744]So it starts out a full viscosity grade below M2C-134D or a premium UTF. Putting that aside the viscosity index is what sets off alarm bells. A monograde gear/engine oil has a VI around 100, good multigrade engine oils about 130, and a premium UTF is roughly 135-160. The low VI specification for the 303 product indicates it is composed of really inferior base stocks with no viscosity modifiers. Makes you wonder what if any EP additives are in the blend. It's the bottom of the oil barrel base oil with very little if anything in the way of additives. That is why it costs what it does. It is most definitely going to thin out really quick when heated and thicken really quick when cooled. A premium UTF is going to be far less sensitive to changes in temperature and work much better across a wider range of ambient temperatures.. The 303 products may work acceptably in the transmissions and final drives of really antique JD and Ford tractors but in cold weather it's going to be a horrible product in any hydraulic system and a potentially expensive disaster in an SOS transmission.

    Just some empirical food for thought,

    TOH
 
I was in Orscheln's today and they have the 303 fluid on sale till 10-1-17 for $19.99. I'll probably pick up one or 2 buckets on Wednesday
 
TOH,
Thanks.
My assertiom all along has been that 134D
oil is much thinner than 90W. At 75?F it
has a similar viscosity to 30W. Your
information on how it performs at 200?C is
no doubt correct.
But as I suggested in the post to crazy8,
its Appearance of being so thin can be off
putting to new users. That's why I always
mention how guys with big, 100+ hp
tractors have had good results with it.
Also, because of its fast flow rate -
which my crude experiment proved - it is
much more prone to leakage than 90W in the
usual places on these tractors.
So while you may be correct on its
properties I think I am not incorrect to
advise others on its thinness.
 
(quoted from post at 09:54:28 10/29/17)
https://fluidsinc.net/products/tractor-hydraulic

Here is a $23.50 per 5 gallon fluid that specifically meets the ford spec for the SOS.... And ironically meets the newer spec for new holland....

and http://catalog.parentpetroleum.com/item/castrol-transmission-fluids/castrol-universal-tractor-fluids-utf-/20167

meets the spec...

and..Ford M2C134-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-C Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-D Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C41-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C41-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C48-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C53-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C77A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-C Pennzoil Hydra-tranz

This is false as far as I can tell. Nowhere do I see that this product "meets the specs." It claims to be "recommended for use in" numerous applications. In the lubricants realm any wording other than "meets or exceeds" whatever spec one is looking for, is deemed to be other than tested for the spec cited.
 
(quoted from post at 08:41:31 10/30/17) TOH,
Thanks.
My assertiom all along has been that 134D
oil is much thinner than 90W. At 75?F it
has a similar viscosity to 30W. Your
information on how it performs at 200?C is
no doubt correct.
But as I suggested in the post to crazy8,
its Appearance of being so thin can be off
putting to new users. That's why I always
mention how guys with big, 100+ hp
tractors have had good results with it.
Also, because of its fast flow rate -
which my crude experiment proved - it is
much more prone to leakage than 90W in the
usual places on these tractors.
So while you may be correct on its
properties I think I am not incorrect to
advise others on its thinness.

If you are concerned about performance use and understand the SAE grade numbers. If you are concerned about leakage and viscosity at room temperature I suggest you forget about SAE grade numbers because they tell you nothing about that and will only confuse the issue (see example below). Look at the product data sheets that have actual measurements which will allow you to calculate and compare viscosity at any ambient/operational temperature you want.

[b:1bef1f592d]Example:[/b:1bef1f592d]

Ford specified mild EP SAE 80 gear oil (M4864-A) for use in all sumps of the Hundred and early Thousand series tractors. Monograde SAE 80 gear oil is a very rare product today and you will pay dearly for it. Here is the industry standard product data for one current offering that would be very close to Ford M4864-A:

[b:1bef1f592d]Liquid Moly SAE 80 hypoid gear oil[/b:1bef1f592d][list:1bef1f592d][*:1bef1f592d]Viscosity at 40C (104F) - 100cSt[*:1bef1f592d]Viscosity at 100C (212F) - 11.1 cSt[*:1bef1f592d]Viscosity index - 96[/list:u:1bef1f592d]Now let's compare that to a the same data for a modern SAE 30 engine oil[b:1bef1f592d]

Valvoline SAE 30 HD engine oil[/b:1bef1f592d][list:1bef1f592d][*:1bef1f592d]Viscosity at 40C (104F) - 88 cSt[*:1bef1f592d]Viscosity at 100C (212F) - 10.4 cSt[*:1bef1f592d]Viscosity index - 100[/list:u:1bef1f592d]Using that data to compute their viscosities at 20C (68F or a comfortable room temperature) the viscosity of the gear oil will be 341 cSt and the engine oil will be 290 cSt. The difference is so small as to be inconsequential as regards leakage and I'd bet dollars to donuts that if one of them leaks they will both leak.

There is a wealth of real measurement data on the OEM sites - all you have to do is look for it. Here is a link to the free online viscosity calculator I used. You will find a wealth of other information on that site as well. Heve fun.

[u:1bef1f592d]Operational Temperature Viscosity Calculator[/u:1bef1f592d]

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 10:21:31 10/30/17)
(quoted from post at 09:54:28 10/29/17)
https://fluidsinc.net/products/tractor-hydraulic

Here is a $23.50 per 5 gallon fluid that specifically meets the ford spec for the SOS.... And ironically meets the newer spec for new holland....

and http://catalog.parentpetroleum.com/item/castrol-transmission-fluids/castrol-universal-tractor-fluids-utf-/20167

meets the spec...

and..Ford M2C134-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-C Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C134-D Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C41-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C41-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C48-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C53-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C77A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-A Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-B Pennzoil Hydra-tranz
Ford M2C86-C Pennzoil Hydra-tranz

This is false as far as I can tell. Nowhere do I see that this product "meets the specs." It claims to be "recommended for use in" numerous applications. In the lubricants realm any wording other than "meets or exceeds" whatever spec one is looking for, is deemed to be other than tested for the spec cited.

The OEM data sheet ([u:2f96083236]Castrol Product Data Sheet[/u:2f96083236]) uses almost exactly your "meets or exceeds" wording. I'd still take the claim with a large grain of salt as I doubt they have actually conducted all of the prescribed OEM tests - would be really expensive to do so and in some cases the specifications are proprietary and not shared with competitors. Based on the data sheet it appears to be a high quality UTF and I'd expect it to do pretty much what they warrant in the applications they cited. I'd certainly use it in anything I own.

TOH

[b:2f96083236]Warranty and Protection Requirements:[/b:2f96083236]

[i:2f96083236]Meets or exceeds OEM requirements for applications requiring a tractor hydraulic fluid meeting the specifications
listed below:[/i:2f96083236]

[b:2f96083236]OEM Specifications:[/b:2f96083236]

Allis Chalmers Power Fluid 821
Case/New Holland MS-1207/Hy-Tran Plus, MS-1210/TCH, MS-1204/TFD Fluid,MS-1205/TFD-II Fluid,MS-1206/PTF
Fluid, JIC-145,JIC-185, B-6/Hy-Tran, CNH MAT 3505 (MS-1209 Hy-Tran Ultra Fluid), Ambra Mastertrans Fluid CNH
MAT 3525 (M2C-134D), Multi G & Multi G 134, Nexplore Fluid
Caterpillar TO-2
John Deere J20A, J20C, JD303, J14B, J14C
Deutz-Allis AC Power Fluid 821 XL
Ford Tractor M2C53A, M2C53C, M2C21A/B, M2C86B/C, M2C134A/B/C/D, M2C77A
Kubota Universal Transdraulic Fluid, UDT Fluid

[b:2f96083236]OEM Specifications:[/b:2f96083236]

Massey Ferguson M-1110, M-1127 A/B, M-1129-A, M-1135, M-1141 (Permatran III)
Oliver/White Q-1766B, UHTF Type 55, Q-1722, 102082, Q-1826
Sperry Vickers Pass on Pump Tests ASTM-D2882 and 35VQ25
Volvo WB-101
ZF 03E, 05F
 
I am not disputing your findings and data on
the superiority of 134D. The reason I
started this thread was to find out this
board's opinion on whether the 303 oil was
acceptable for use in an SOS.
I'd say the consensus here is that it is
not. So I will return it and buy the right
stuff.
That said,
If you are asking me to agree that when you
are pouring a pail of 134D into your tractor
that it doesn't pour twice as fast as 80W90
I will not agree. Because I know it does. It
pours about like 30W.
If you ask me Not to tell a fellow layman
that 134D is noticably THINNER than the
80W90 he is used to but that it is the
recommended oil for his tractor, even if it
leaks more, I won't agree to that either.
We can argue this forever if you wish but I
doubt we will get much further than we have.
 
(quoted from post at 12:27:31 10/30/17) I am not disputing your findings and data on
the superiority of 134D. The reason I
started this thread was to find out this
board's opinion on whether the 303 oil was
acceptable for use in an SOS.
I'd say the consensus here is that it is
not. So I will return it and buy the right
stuff.
That said,
If you are asking me to agree that when you
are pouring a pail of 134D into your tractor
that it doesn't pour twice as fast as 80W90
I will not agree. Because I know it does. It
pours about like 30W.
If you ask me Not to tell a fellow layman
that 134D is noticably THINNER than the
80W90 he is used to but that it is the
recommended oil for his tractor, even if it
leaks more, I won't agree to that either.
We can argue this forever if you wish but I
doubt we will get much further than we have.

There has been no argument on my end - just an offer of information. My point throughout has been simple - the observed differences in the pail mean almost nothing for any of the reasons or products we discussed. Feel free to talk about them to friends and strangers all you want but IMO it is not helpful and simply reinforces many misconceptions related to product performance. Personally I don't deal with leaks by switching to a heavier oil because in my experience that really doesn't work very effectively...

TOH
 
My 3400 calls for 134, when I called Hyguard they said 303 would work as I don't have wet brakes but the "premium UTF" was their reccomendation. Since the machine was new to me, leaking and possibly in need of a flush and maybe repairs I filled it with the 303. Now, a year, some repairs and 30hours later I'm planning on a fluid change for winter to the premium stuff.

It kills me to dump the 303.... If it comes out clean I'm tempted to replace the 90wt in the 9N with it - would that be a bad idea?
 
I replaced the funky old gear oil in my Ferguson TO-30 with new 303, the post hole digger has since drifted down about twice as fast as it used to, no more than a couple minutes of road travel before the auger drags on the pavement. If you're curious about the condition of your lift cylinder, using 303 is a good way to find out.

Zeke B.
 
Tractor Supply is having a sale through tomorrow on its Traveller Preminum UTF, normally $36.99 now $24.99. I have had good luck with it and it meets most all specs.
5602.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 12:26:25 11/04/17) Tractor Supply is having a sale through tomorrow on its Traveller Preminum UTF, normally $36.99 now $24.99. I have had good luck with it and it meets most all specs.

Just for clarification: This oil does not say it meets the specs! It says it's recommended for use in the specs listed. That is a clear indicator that it's not been tested to see if it actually does meet the specs.

Given that info, I'd never put it in anything I owned!
 
More for me then!

It does meet or exceeds those specs. It's made by Warren. You can contact them and speak with an engineer if you have concerns instead of assuming. I originally got turned on to it by some folks on the BITOG Forums.
 

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