Ford 640 condenser?

MI-Bill

Member
bought cheap points and condenser at TSC as none of the locals had name rands on hand.replaced both and tractor ran great for about 2 hours. I moved a lot of dirt with a box blade and a rear scoop. was running great and then just cutout-quit without warning or fanfare. I'm guessing this is the second condenser failure. The first one only ran for about 5 minutes. Now, I"m curious how many others have had similar experiences? Also, either NAPA or O Reilly's will have to order the parts (next day) which brands should I be looking for? Second ? Distributor cam lube? none of the local parts gurus even know what it is or where to get it? So where can I get some? parts gurus say try vaseline or dielectric grease?
 
I doubt that the condenser is causing your problem. I would rather suspect the point set.

NAPA can get cam lube for you if they want to.

DO NOT use dielectric grease. Vaseline is better than nothing but will be gone within minutes.

Order Standard Ignition, Echlin or Sorensen ignition parts. Order the premium line. No, they are not as good as they once were, but they will be better than the TSC parts.

Dean
 
If all bad, it is because cheap Chinee junk. I still use 50 year old condensers............just go find an old one!
 
Get a Pertronix electronic ignition and eliminate the crappy points and condensors. Your engine will thank you.
 
Why guess?

If the condenser failed open, you would have burnt points. If you don't see that, then get your VOM out.

A failed shorted condenser would essentially, electrically be like the points never opening. check with your ohm meter or a test lamp.. if the points opening make the lamp blink, it's not a shorted condenser.

I see more people here that have NO IDEA what a condenser does, how it works, or what failure modes it has, blame it on why they can't maintain a simple electric circuit designed a hundred years ago... back when we still bled people to let the demons out of their bodies to heal them.

99% of the time when someone prognosticates that their condenser went bad, but have no evidence of it, and they take everything apart and put it back together and it works, what that have acomplished are reseating dubious connections, or moving parts that should or shouldn't touch, or let something cool down that was failing from heat, or readjusted points, or accidentally cleaned them.

test your condenser.

Like Jmor said. I'm running vintage condensers in most of my equipment. In some I'm running cheap tisco condensers ( but not their points )
 
I think the real answer is to save the 99$ and learn how to maintain a a simple electric circuit that has about 3 feet of wire and was designed and ran a century ago by people with 1/10'th of our technology available today!

There's the real trick...
 
soundguy, No blink. Tractor is now at job site-son's house. I need to finish a drainage trench by Saturday, it may mot happen. HISTORY; I converted to 12 volt 5 years ago with this boards recommended true 12 volt coil and NO resistor. it ran well for over 3 years that way. Tractor was apart for about a year, mostly cosmetic work and paint. Was going to switch to a voltmeter so pulled the ammeter and bypassed it to the terminal block. I did replace the Key switch with a TSC switch 2 or 3 years ago. after setting, no spark, so TSC parts Points and condenser. started and ran for a little while over 5 and maybe 15 minutes. since then, I have replaced points and condenser or condenser 4 times. Second time, it started and ran strong for several hours and I worked it hard with a box blade. every time it has stopped, it was like some one turned the key off. no sputter, hesitation or warning. I was going to order a Pertronix, but I would not get it in time to finish the project i'm working on. also, perhaps not a good idea, if I am not sure of what the problem is. I have done most all of the usual tests, i.e. gas spark voltmeter. I am totally at a lost. I will go back and test with a voltmeter again, but past times, I have always had voltage to the distributor.
 
Help-soundguy, No blink. Tractor is now at job site-son's house. I need to finish a drainage trench by Saturday, it may mot happen. HISTORY; I converted to 12 volt 5 years ago with this boards recommended true 12 volt coil and NO resistor. it ran well for over 3 years that way. Tractor was apart for about a year, mostly cosmetic work and paint. Was going to switch to a voltmeter so pulled the ammeter and bypassed it to the terminal block. I did replace the Key switch with a TSC switch 2 or 3 years ago. after setting, no spark, so TSC parts Points and condenser. started and ran for a little while over 5 and maybe 15 minutes. since then, I have replaced points and condenser or condenser 4 times. Second time, it started and ran strong for several hours and I worked it hard with a box blade. every time it has stopped, it was like some one turned the key off. no sputter, hesitation or warning. I was going to order a Pertronix, but I would not get it in time to finish the project i'm working on. also, perhaps not a good idea, if I am not sure of what the problem is. I have done most all of the usual tests, i.e. gas spark voltmeter. I am totally at a lost. I will go back and test with a voltmeter again, but past times, I have always had voltage to the distributor.
 
there is an insulated feedthru in side of distributor and that insulator is a point of failure.. If it shorts to base then the symptom is same as shorted condenser or stuck closed points. Also a weak point is copper strip connecting that insulated screw to points.
 
I'd start with hotwiring her, since you say it has a true 12v coil. that eliminates all the junk between the battery and the coil.

Next.. look at the points.. are they burnt?
 
hot wired from battery direct to coil. NO FIRE. I just ordered the pertronix 1244a with next day delivery. The only other culprit now would be the coil?
 
(quoted from post at 18:43:56 04/27/17) hot wired from battery direct to coil. NO FIRE. I just ordered the pertronix 1244a with next day delivery. The only other culprit now would be the coil?
o.there is an insulated feedthru in side of distributor and that insulator is a point of failure.. If it shorts to base then the symptom is same as shorted condenser or stuck closed points. Also a weak point is copper strip connecting that insulated screw to points.
 
Is it? Test, don't guess!

1, check coil primary continuity on low ohms setting, then test secondary on Kohms setting. 3 ish low, and 4-11k high?

Next, wire a test lamp in place of the coil.

Battery to probe, probe clip to dizzy. Crank over..lamp blink? it should.
 
I posted over on thr 9n2n8n board about two bad condensers a guy had installed in a row. They were new from NAPA I had a old one in my stash don't know what it came out of other than it was in my tractor ignition box of parts installed it, it fired rite up and purred like a kitten. It was the first time I have ever ran across a know bad condenser :shock:
 
Thank you ALL. and HOBO who verified bad condensers do exist. I replaced, or tried 5 total including a Echlin from NAPA that appeared to be same manufacture as the countryside from TSC. I am going with Pertronix. We now live in a world where the parts guys at most of the parts stores around here do not have a clue as to what point lube is, or why anyone would want to buy such a thing. Keep track of the few places you can get quality parts and stock up.
 
(quoted from post at 09:57:59 04/28/17) Thank you ALL. and HOBO who verified bad condensers do exist. I replaced, or tried 5 total including a Echlin from NAPA that appeared to be same manufacture as the countryside from TSC. I am going with Pertronix. We now live in a world where the parts guys at most of the parts stores around here do not have a clue as to what point lube is, or why anyone would want to buy such a thing. Keep track of the few places you can get quality parts and stock up.
do wish you luck, since you have not determined why it will not run now, it may still not run after replacing some more parts, but with good fortune maybe you will get lucky.
 
(quoted from post at 20:13:03 04/28/17)
(quoted from post at 09:57:59 04/28/17) Thank you ALL. and HOBO who verified bad condensers do exist. I replaced, or tried 5 total including a Echlin from NAPA that appeared to be same manufacture as the countryside from TSC. I am going with Pertronix. We now live in a world where the parts guys at most of the parts stores around here do not have a clue as to what point lube is, or why anyone would want to buy such a thing. Keep track of the few places you can get quality parts and stock up.
do wish you luck, since you have not determined why it will not run now, it may still not run after replacing some more parts, but with good fortune maybe you will get lucky.

Whut he said, points are EI suffer from the same issues. I would get it going with points then make the call. This is from a EI lubber :D

Get a spark checker a automotive sealed beam head light bulb and a few jumper wires togather then you can go hunting your issue. It will spark with out a condenser but it will be weak spark and probably not enough to fire it off. I use a H6054 because USPS paid for it.
 
Easy enough if you don't want to trouble shoot properly. Yank the condenser (capacitor....2 conductors separated by a dielectric). If it runs get a new one. If not you are chasing a ghost. Chase elsewhere in the circuit.
 
I agree that bad condensers do exist but they were once VERY rare. Who knows if they still are because the quality of aftermarket parts is so abysmal.

I found one in a 1963 Impala with 283 V8 in 1970 or 1971. As the engine was running, it was difficult to diagnose and I used an ignition scope to track it down.

That single bad condenser is the only one that I have ever found.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 21:30:16 04/28/17) I agree that bad condensers do exist but they were once VERY rare. Who knows if they still are because the quality of aftermarket parts is so abysmal.

I found one in a 1963 Impala with 283 V8 in 1970 or 1971. As the engine was running, it was difficult to diagnose and I used an ignition scope to track it down.

That single bad condenser is the only one that I have ever found.

Dean
ometimes they will run without them, sometimes they won't.......it all depends on how much spark is need in a particular engine/plugs/wires/etc. It does much more than keep points from burning.
 
Probably due to the phase shift of the point opening timing with vs without which probably wouldn't be enough to keep it from running
without with the timing being set for running with it. Not sure, just speculating....never did it. My recollection of gasser's timing was quite
a few degrees from cough cough ccw to cough cough cw. Grin
 
Mark it is because when one is running, but marginally, with a condenser & then that condenser is removed, the weakened spark is no longer sufficient to make it run. Reason spark is weaker w/o condenser is that now a significant portion of the stored energy of the coil is burned off in the arc across the points instead of going into the secondary spark.
 
Undersand what you are saying. So besides limiting the rate of rise of the voltage across the opening points to below the arc level, the C
stores the energy that would otherwise be wasted in the spark and gives it back to the circuit when it's the energy source. Makes sense.
Thanks J.
 

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