Ford 4000 Diesel 4 cyl smoking and missing

So this is my first post so I hope I don't break any rules. I just picked up a ford 4000 diesel 4 cylinder today. The seller told me what he knew as follows: He purchased the tractor about five years ago from his boss who in turn purchased it just after it had been rebuilt(the seller thinks the motor was rebuilt but not the transmission though he really didn't know for sure). the first four years the seller had the tractor it ran fine and was mainly used late summer to cut shooting lanes and bushhog around his deer camp. The majority of the year it sat in his (very nice I might add) shop. This last summer when he cranked it to load it up it was missing badly and smoking blue smoke like crazy. He said there was diesel in the oil so he had the injector pump rebuilt by a local certified Roosamaster repairman. Despite the rebuild it still smoked and missed(despite the smoking and missing he went ahead and bush hogged for several hours with some reduced power but it didn't get worse the longer he used it). The pump guy bench checked the injectors said they were good and also checked compression in all four cylinders(seller didn't remember the numbers but remembers the pump guy saying compression was fine). seller told me he's checked the pump timing twice and it looked right to him. So any suggestions on what to check first/what order to check things? Sorry for such a long post and such a general question.

Billy Alexander
 
Tell you what I'd do. Get yourself a couple of quarts of Power Services Diesel Supplement, forget if it's the white or grey bottle (I'm in the
house and mine is in the shop) but the one that is not for storage but for injector cleaning and general engine hygiene. Put a whole quart in
a full tank of diesel and half a quart in the oil and take your tractor out and hook it to a good plow and work it continuously till the tank is
about empty.

Bring it to the shop and change the oil and filter, new fuel with the recommended amount of PS snake oil. Ensure your air cleaner is
serviced properly. Then test it and decide if you have a problem or not. Wink! You just may have a big surprise coming. Even if you don't
you don't know till you try and that surely beats an overhaul necessary or not to my way of thinking.
 
Thanks for the replies, i'll try the diesel cleaner promoter services as instructed and see what happens. Again thanks for y'all's help

Billy
 
I just ran the tractor with the bottle of diesel cleaner in the fuel bit only for like 10 min, I have to go to town. I also noticed/forgot to mention it pops a good bit too.
 
With the cleaner? That tells me you are cutting carbon loose and it's igniting fuel left over from incomplete combustion due to all the crud
and probably slobbering injectors rather than misting injectors. Keep it up. Letting it sit after running is great. Will give the chemicals time
to soak things good. Run her up to PTO rpms when you get back and let her belch and pfart.
 
(quoted from post at 05:29:16 04/30/17) Hey Billy, don't forget us. Interested in your progress/lack thereof. Keep us posted.

I won't forget you.

I've talked with the seller again, he said the missing wasn't so much all of a sudden, like I thought I had understood, but more of a it began to run kinda off/rough but got worse over time. I also talked to the certified Roosamaster pump repairman who went thru the pump and rebuilt it and went through it a second time to be sure he didn't make some mistake,
Also he checked and checked again several times the timing and it seemed right to him, he couldn't remember the degrees off the top of his head. In the end he the roosamaster tech just couldn't figure out what was the problem. He did mention the compression on each cylinder was around 380 and although that was ok to him, per the manual the pressure should be 490 psi.
 

I'm no expert, but I'd be concerned if compression on a diesel was only at 75% of where the book says it ought to be.
 
490/14.7 psi atmospheric pressure at sea level = 33:1. I don't know of any naturally aspired, direct injection, diesel running that kind of
compression. Don't know what turbos run. I think that engine does fine at around 19-21 which would be in the range of 280-310 psig.,
especially at cranking rpms where you could get some leakage around worn rings if you had them. His 380 number seems more than
adequate to me to explode diesel MIST!!!!!! Since you have the timing and the fuel supply and the compression, only thing missing as I said
was injectors slobbering rather than misting.
 
Tell you what. I have the complete OEM service manuals for the 55-60 Ford 100 series and the I and T manuals for the 2000 and 4000 4
cyl engines in the shop. I'm having breakfast now but after while I'll rummage through them and see if they spec it, surely they do.. If so
you'll get the book number. How's that!
 
I know these links tend to stop working after a time bit this is a video of it running. A common question on many smoking threads is what color is the smoke, mine seems bluish white or whitish blue
 
blue is oil and white is water while black is unburned diesel

Blue leaking rings or stuck rings which were the case in my '63 4 cyl 2000 with about 3500 orig hrs, original proofmeter working just fine.
Snake oil pretty much solved that problem except when I have it idling and jam the throttle to wide open.

White is moisture from condensation or if the head gasket is leaking, cold engine type thing. I think some say timing being off can cause it.

Black is unburned diesel like you would have with a slobbering injector....blobs of diesel wouldn't explode like molecules of fine mist so
some fuel is left over after the combustion stroke.

The OEM manual, pg 52 states:

For models 801 thru 4131

172 cu in Diesel
3.9/3.6 b/s
554 psig nominal at 1000 rpm (not cranking speed of a couple hundred if that)
16.8:1 comp ratio
56.3 brake (stripped engine alone, no appendages) hp @2200 rpm
140 ft-lbs @1400
------------
Just for confusion:
172 gas
same bs
205 psig
7.5:1 comp
62.6 brake hp
166 ft-lbs @1600

hmmmmmmmm so we gain mpg and lower rpm peak torque curve for selecting diesels, yet loose hp? What the manual doesn't tell us is
where is the diesel torque curve at 2200 rpm? How flat was it vs the gasser. And for me anyway, diesels are wayyyyy less prone to having
to diddle this and diddle that to keep them running. Also they don't spec hp at 2200 which is (torque x rpm)/5252. I'll keep my diesels.


The I and T # FO 20:

For 801 thru 4130D
16:1 comp
365-400 psig didn't list rpm, probably cranking with all the injectors out and a fresh battery with clean connections.
 
Billy, If you are talking to me, I copied the entire post from brackets to brackets, on both posts and (Apple) Safari said it couldn't open
either requested URL.
 

The smoke looks like unburned fuel to me. I would pull the injectors and get them checked. Or if you wanted an even easier step, try loosening the fuel line to one at a time, to see if it gets worse with particular ones loosened. The one that makes no change is the bad one. Do this after getting it up to operating temp. My 971D makes white smoke while cranking when cold before it fires up. It makes a little black smoke when pulling a load up hill. It never makes blue smoke.
 
Texasmark1,
Sorry you couldn't open it, it was my first attempt so I'm sure I may have done it wrong.

Showcrop

The seller put rebuilt injectors in about 9 months or so ago and the roosamaster rebuild bench checked them too and said they were good.

Billy
 
sooooo its been 4 years or so. i showed my video of the 4000 running and producing tons of white(ish) smoke to an older ford mechanic and he immediatly said my pump was 180 degrees out of time. So he told me in general terms how to fix it but my question is do i take the pump out and then rotate the engine (and if so one full rotation or two) and then reinsert pump or do i rotate the pump shaft?(if so one full rotation?) and then reinsert pump?

Billy Alexander

This post was edited by Billyalexander on 01/01/2022 at 08:02 pm.
 
the video of it running is still on you tube under the title

ford 4000 4 cylinder diesel running rough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tJNpWhVlpM
 
The pump turns once for every two rotations of the engine, so you would need to turn the engine once, or turn the pump 1/2 of a single rotation to change the pump by 180 degrees, but you should get yourself a service manual and follow the procedure in there to get the pump properly timed to the engine.

BTW, if it was 180 degrees out of time then it would be injecting fuel at the end of the exhaust stroke, not the compression stroke, and I don't see how it could possibly run at all.
 
what confuses me is the drive shaft on the pump has an offset such that it will only fit the corresponding engine drive shaft one way so if i were to take the pump out and turn the pump drive shaft 1/2 a revolution they then would not mate up. Seems to be the same situation that if i take the pump out and bar the engine over one revolution, the slot in the engine drive shaft will now be offset exactly opposite the pump's drive shaft? i have the manual and have read it's timing instructions as well as multiple posts on this forum that were very informative and helpful about timing, but it seemed the mechanic i talked to implied i could take the pump out, rotate it and put it back in. but maybe he thought i knew more than i do and didnt explain all the steps?

Billy
 
(quoted from post at 11:14:59 01/02/22) what confuses me is the drive shaft on the pump has an offset such that it will only fit the corresponding engine drive shaft one way so if i were to take the pump out and turn the pump drive shaft 1/2 a revolution they then would not mate up. Seems to be the same situation that if i take the pump out and bar the engine over one revolution, the slot in the engine drive shaft will now be offset exactly opposite the pump's drive shaft? i have the manual and have read it's timing instructions as well as multiple posts on this forum that were very informative and helpful about timing, but it seemed the mechanic i talked to implied i could take the pump out, rotate it and put it back in. but maybe he thought i knew more than i do and didnt explain all the steps?

Billy

Sounds like the mechanic that you talked to is more familiar with some other model Ford tractors, but if he claims it is 180 degrees out of time and it runs, then I wouldn't believe anything else he says.
 
Sean

I am not very knowledgable when it comes to these engines mostly just a weekend warrior so to speak. This thread I'm posting seems to imply that they will run with the pump 180 degrees out just roughly and with lots of smoke and hard to crank??

BTW were you able to see the youtube video of mine running?


https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1495200
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:48 01/03/22) Sean

I am not very knowledgable when it comes to these engines mostly just a weekend warrior so to speak. This thread I'm posting seems to imply that they will run with the pump 180 degrees out just roughly and with lots of smoke and hard to crank??

BTW were you able to see the youtube video of mine running?


https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1495200

I don't understand how it could possibly run if the pump was 180 degrees out. It wouldn't be delivering the fuel at anywhere near the correct time. Being 5 degrees out can make it hard to start, and 10 degrees out can make them almost impossible to start.
 
(quoted from post at 19:25:22 04/24/17) So this is my first post so I hope I don't break any rules. I just picked up a ford 4000 diesel 4 cylinder today. The seller told me what he knew as follows: He purchased the tractor about five years ago from his boss who in turn purchased it just after it had been rebuilt(the seller thinks the motor was rebuilt but not the transmission though he really didn't know for sure). the first four years the seller had the tractor it ran fine and was mainly used late summer to cut shooting lanes and bushhog around his deer camp. The majority of the year it sat in his (very nice I might add) shop. This last summer when he cranked it to load it up it was missing badly and smoking blue smoke like crazy. He said there was diesel in the oil so he had the injector pump rebuilt by a local certified Roosamaster repairman. Despite the rebuild it still smoked and missed(despite the smoking and missing he went ahead and bush hogged for several hours with some reduced power but it didn't get worse the longer he used it). The pump guy bench checked the injectors said they were good and also checked compression in all four cylinders(seller didn't remember the numbers but remembers the pump guy saying compression was fine). seller told me he's checked the pump timing twice and it looked right to him. So any suggestions on what to check first/what order to check things? Sorry for such a long post and such a general question.

Billy Alexander
 
(quoted from post at 19:25:22 04/24/17) So this is my first post so I hope I don't break any rules. I just picked up a ford 4000 diesel 4 cylinder today. The seller told me what he knew as follows: He purchased the tractor about five years ago from his boss who in turn purchased it just after it had been rebuilt(the seller thinks the motor was rebuilt but not the transmission though he really didn't know for sure). the first four years the seller had the tractor it ran fine and was mainly used late summer to cut shooting lanes and bushhog around his deer camp. The majority of the year it sat in his (very nice I might add) shop. This last summer when he cranked it to load it up it was missing badly and smoking blue smoke like crazy. He said there was diesel in the oil so he had the injector pump rebuilt by a local certified Roosamaster repairman. Despite the rebuild it still smoked and missed(despite the smoking and missing he went ahead and bush hogged for several hours with some reduced power but it didn't get worse the longer he used it). The pump guy bench checked the injectors said they were good and also checked compression in all four cylinders(seller didn't remember the numbers but remembers the pump guy saying compression was fine). seller told me he's checked the pump timing twice and it looked right to him. So any suggestions on what to check first/what order to check things? Sorry for such a long post and such a general question.

Billy Alexander


That sounds just like many 4 cyl. gassers that I have heard that were missing on one cyl. if you had the fourth one firing it would be as smooth as you would want. The white exhaust indicates unburned fuel, so like others despite the injectors have been tested that is what I am thinking.
 

Not going to say it's 100% the issue but we've had that issue a couple times in the past on fresh rebuilt pumps, one was on a fresh rebuilt engine and the other was on a leaking pump that was sent in for a reseal, sent them back to the pump shops and they said everything with fine.
We installed used pumps on the tractors and they ran good, swapped out the timing advance assembly from a old pump onto the rebuilt unit and it ran good, turned out both times the timing advance components had been assembled backwards throwing the timing off once the engine started.
Just a suggestion on something to look at.
 

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