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851 Hydraulics

R

Royse

Well-known Member
3pt lift arms will raise, slowly, when empty to 18 inches then
stop. They will stay at that height and hold my weight even
with the tractor shut off, until the touch control is lowered.

There is also very little pressure at the remote valve.
I plumbed a gauge into the remote port and it moved off zero,
but not up to the first mark, which is 100 psi, so maybe 50 psi?

As far as I can tell the pump is turning since the proofmeter
drive is turning. I also bled the air at the pump and there were
a few air bubbles not all that much. Oil level is full.

I can look in the hydraulic filler cap and see the end of the
lift cylinder. There doesn't appear to be any oil leaking there.

So what do you think? Relieve valve? Bad line in the trans?
How can I tell without throwing parts at it?
 
Time to look inside the pump, especially the intake portion, particularly those six little intake valve springs.
 
"There is also very little pressure at the remote valve. "....with the lift arms chained down?
 
(quoted from post at 17:07:52 04/02/17) "There is also very little pressure at the remote valve. "....with the lift arms chained down?
Click to expand...
Yes, they were chained down.
 
(quoted from post at 17:09:52 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:07:52 04/02/17) "There is also very little pressure at the remote valve. "....with the lift arms chained down?
Click to expand...
Yes, they were chained down.
Click to expand...
knew that you knew they needed to be, but you didn't say, so I asked. Same in draft or position?
 
(quoted from post at 17:24:30 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:09:52 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:07:52 04/02/17) "There is also very little pressure at the remote valve. "....with the lift arms chained down?
Click to expand...
Yes, they were chained down.
Click to expand...
knew that you knew they needed to be, but you didn't say, so I asked. Same in draft or position?
Click to expand...
Yes sir, same in draft or position control.
Must have been in a hurry. I didn't mention that either. :oops:
 
(quoted from post at 17:27:38 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:24:30 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:09:52 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:07:52 04/02/17) "There is also very little pressure at the remote valve. "....with the lift arms chained down?
Click to expand...
Yes, they were chained down.
Click to expand...
knew that you knew they needed to be, but you didn't say, so I asked. Same in draft or position?
Click to expand...
Yes sir, same in draft or position control.
Must have been in a hurry. I didn't mention that either. :oops:
Click to expand...
don't see a cause for the 18 inch limit. To me, that does not sound like pressure/volume/leaks, but like control.
 
(quoted from post at 17:30:43 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:27:38 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:24:30 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:09:52 04/02/17)
(quoted from post at 17:07:52 04/02/17) "There is also very little pressure at the remote valve. "....with the lift arms chained down?
Click to expand...
Yes, they were chained down.
Click to expand...
knew that you knew they needed to be, but you didn't say, so I asked. Same in draft or position?
Click to expand...
Yes sir, same in draft or position control.
Must have been in a hurry. I didn't mention that either. :oops:
Click to expand...
don't see a cause for the 18 inch limit. To me, that does not sound like pressure/volume/leaks, but like control.
Click to expand...
I also didn't mention using air in the dipstick tube, but I did.
Didn't really seem like a priming issue but figured it wouldn't hurt.

I'd be happier if it were a control issue as opposed to splitting
it to replace the tubes. I'm not sure how to prove what it is.
I did take a look at the touch control lever to make sure it was
turning the shaft when moved but I haven't opened it up at all.
 
Thanks Wayne, I rebuilt the pump on my Jubilee. It was a piston
pump like this one so that wouldn't be completely strange
territory if that's what it needs. Too bad a Jubilee pump won't
fit with this manifold. I have a spare one of those I could try.
 
You are saying the Jubilee pump is a vane pump? So far you have not changed my mine on what could be the problem even tho I have been wrong twice today and things do run in threes! lol
 
LOL. Can't help with a diagnosis but you're wrong on which job is easier. Replacing a tube is about an hour job including draining the oil. There is no need to split and
it's been discussed here lots of times. A control issue is much harder. (been putting that one off myself)
 
Well, allow me to give you a completely different, but far more
accurate description of the problem. Visual symptoms are still
the same, but I just couldn't get over the lift even moving at
~50psi, so after verifying and replacing a faulty gauge, my
pressure readings are completely different.

Lift arms chained down, tractor slightly above idle, roughly 800
RPM by ear, in position control mode, I moved the touch control
lever to full lift. The gauge, hooked to the test port under the
seat went up to 1700 PSI. For about 30 seconds. I didn't change
a thing, simply stood and watched it. The gauge slowly decreased
to around 800 PSI, (could this be the point where the lift arms
stopped at 18 inches if they were allowed to move?) then came
back up to ~1300 PSI, then down to ~900 finally settling in to
oscillate around 1000 +/- 100 PSI. Stayed there for 5 minutes
until I shut it off. After I shut it off, touch control still fully up,
the pressure dropped to zero in 4 minutes. No weight on the
arms, they were chained down as I said.

That make more sense to you guys? Now seems like a lift
cover issue to me. Unloader valve and/or adjustments.
I still need to measure the pressures in draft mode.
 
You can remove the accessory plate and move it over so that the edge of it covers the vertical tube coming up from the pump (as well as exhaust tube) , bolt it down with two bolts, move pressure gauge to pump (or plug down on side of housing near bottom of pressure vertical tube) and re-measure pressures, now with nothing but pump and over-pressure relief valve in the circuit. No top cover, no controls, none of that.
 
Thanks Jesse, I'll give that a shot. I have to go back to work so
it won't be tonight, but hopefully I will have time tomorrow night.
 
Sorry to interrupt your diagnostic procedure but what makes the NAA piston pump not fit the 800 hyd manifold? I must have missed something.
 
I am gunna guess 18" is as far as the lift arms will lift. Have you went thru the oil fill hole and manually worked the lift linkage with a screwdriver.
 
"Have you went thru the oil fill hole and manually worked the lift linkage with a screwdriver."

I have not Hobo, but they will lift all the way to the top manually.
At some point they lifted there hydraulically, because they were
all the way up when the seller showed it to me, engine off.
They haven't raised above 18 inches since I let them down at his
house. And I bought it anyway... :roll:
 
I haven't actually tried it Wayne; an assumption on my part based
on the different part numbers and the fact that the Jubilee didn't
have a manifold at all. It had external lines. I should check it out.
 

You can also remove the draft spring on the rear were the top link hooks up, remove it then the plate with 3 bolts. Take a 5/8" washer and cut a slot in it to fit around the roll pin. Put it back together this moves the lift linkage forward to take up for ware. Its not a fix but will counter for ware for the mean time...
 
I have not seen any piston pumps that wouldn't interchange. In fact numbers on the pumps seldom show up. Blocking the system with the accessory plate should prove the same thing. Would never have thought of that. Thanks Jessie
 
I like to answer questions with absolutes, but in this case, I have not done it, so, I will answer with, I 'believe' the NAA and hundred series pumps will interchange as far as everything bolting up (flow rates might differ?). I believe it is the old NAA vane vs piston that have different tube or manifold mating surfaces. my 2¢
 
(quoted from post at 00:13:24 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 22:43:47 04/03/17) You are correct! I have done so!
Click to expand...
ood to know. Nothing like 'been there done that'.
Click to expand...
I agree! I did not get back out there tonight, that dang work thing.
Hopefully tomorrow. I will keep you all updated.
Is there a danger of rupturing those tubes by blocking the cover?
 
(quoted from post at 23:46:29 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 00:13:24 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 22:43:47 04/03/17) You are correct! I have done so!
Click to expand...
ood to know. Nothing like 'been there done that'.
Click to expand...
I agree! I did not get back out there tonight, that dang work thing.
Hopefully tomorrow. I will keep you all updated.
Is there a danger of rupturing those tubes by blocking the cover?
Click to expand...
ell, should be no different in chaining lift arms down when all is working. Over pressure relief will still be in the circuit, in belly of lift housing.
 
(quoted from post at 23:46:29 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 00:13:24 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 22:43:47 04/03/17) You are correct! I have done so!
Click to expand...
ood to know. Nothing like 'been there done that'.
Click to expand...
I agree! I did not get back out there tonight, that dang work thing.
Hopefully tomorrow. I will keep you all updated.
Is there a danger of rupturing those tubes by blocking the cover?
Click to expand...
Ok, I moved the cover straight over, cut a little piece of gasket
material to cover the holes so oil didn't spray out and bolted it down.
When I started the engine the gauge, which is now in the pump,
went to 500 PSI initially, but tapered off to zero in 10 seconds.
I put air in the dipstick tube again and the gauge would come
back up to ~300PSI, but returned to zero when the air was removed.
Maybe I'll get to try that pump swap to see if its the pump
or the tubes after all.
 
(quoted from post at 17:41:45 04/05/17)
(quoted from post at 23:46:29 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 00:13:24 04/04/17)
(quoted from post at 22:43:47 04/03/17) You are correct! I have done so!
Click to expand...
ood to know. Nothing like 'been there done that'.
Click to expand...
I agree! I did not get back out there tonight, that dang work thing.
Hopefully tomorrow. I will keep you all updated.
Is there a danger of rupturing those tubes by blocking the cover?
Click to expand...
Ok, I moved the cover straight over, cut a little piece of gasket
material to cover the holes so oil didn't spray out and bolted it down.
When I started the engine the gauge, which is now in the pump,
went to 500 PSI initially, but tapered off to zero in 10 seconds.
I put air in the dipstick tube again and the gauge would come
back up to ~300PSI, but returned to zero when the air was removed.
Maybe I'll get to try that pump swap to see if its the pump
or the tubes after all.
Click to expand...
f it were the pressure tube (usually the one to go) that oil should show somewhere as a loss and elsewhere as a gain. Suction air leak might be more difficult to isolate to pump or tubes. I'm with you, on swapping pumps.
 
I changed that pump this evening, thanks for that tip Wayne.
Now I know better too. I did change the flat seal that was
between my 1954 NAA pump and the tubes for an O-ring
but I don't know if that flat seal was original to begin with.
It wasn't a gasket, just a flat rubber washer as opposed to
a true O-ring on one end of the pump. O-ring on the other.

Here's the current set of symptoms.
I put it all back together and bled the pump using a tube ran
back to the fill hole. Put the plug in and raised the touch control lever.
I had basically the same symptoms. Lift raised to about 19 1/2
inches. That's in position control mode, nothing in draft mode.

Then I put the gauge back in the port under the seat, chained the
lift arms down and raised the touch control lever. 1700 PSI and
it stayed there. Rock steady. That's far different. Still no leaks.

I can see the linkage moving inside the cover when I move the
touch control lever so I took Hobo's suggestion and pushed the
linkage a little further manually.
The lift would go up farther, but I couldn't get 100% lift height.
The linkage was also spring loaded back so it lowered as soon
as I released it. I can see the pin is worn some.
 
(quoted from post at 06:27:47 04/07/17) I changed that pump this evening, thanks for that tip Wayne.
Now I know better too. I did change the flat seal that was
between my 1954 NAA pump and the tubes for an O-ring
but I don't know if that flat seal was original to begin with.
It wasn't a gasket, just a flat rubber washer as opposed to
a true O-ring on one end of the pump. O-ring on the other.

Here's the current set of symptoms.
I put it all back together and bled the pump using a tube ran
back to the fill hole. Put the plug in and raised the touch control lever.
I had basically the same symptoms. Lift raised to about 19 1/2
inches. That's in position control mode, nothing in draft mode.

Then I put the gauge back in the port under the seat, chained the
lift arms down and raised the touch control lever. 1700 PSI and
it stayed there. Rock steady. That's far different. Still no leaks.

I can see the linkage moving inside the cover when I move the
touch control lever so I took Hobo's suggestion and pushed the
linkage a little further manually.
The lift would go up farther, but I couldn't get 100% lift height.
The linkage was also spring loaded back so it lowered as soon
as I released it. I can see the pin is worn some.
Click to expand...

Skip 1,2,3,4 and move rite to

5) eliminate the suspects
6) perform the repair (lift cover is coming off)

Or shim the draft set up and ship it...

If cover is coming off forgo the shim... I like the shim because it confirms a adjustment issue all else is GOOD I lost nuttin because the big fat arse draft spring is coming of if I dissemble the lift cover for repair...

I have never checked the pressures if I ever need to will pin my buds down for help. :) Question what else do you need to know its a adjustment issue yank the lift cover its not that bad...
 
(quoted from post at 21:49:12 04/06/17)
(quoted from post at 06:27:47 04/07/17) I changed that pump this evening, thanks for that tip Wayne.
Now I know better too. I did change the flat seal that was
between my 1954 NAA pump and the tubes for an O-ring
but I don't know if that flat seal was original to begin with.
It wasn't a gasket, just a flat rubber washer as opposed to
a true O-ring on one end of the pump. O-ring on the other.

Here's the current set of symptoms.
I put it all back together and bled the pump using a tube ran
back to the fill hole. Put the plug in and raised the touch control lever.
I had basically the same symptoms. Lift raised to about 19 1/2
inches. That's in position control mode, nothing in draft mode.

Then I put the gauge back in the port under the seat, chained the
lift arms down and raised the touch control lever. 1700 PSI and
it stayed there. Rock steady. That's far different. Still no leaks.

I can see the linkage moving inside the cover when I move the
touch control lever so I took Hobo's suggestion and pushed the
linkage a little further manually.
The lift would go up farther, but I couldn't get 100% lift height.
The linkage was also spring loaded back so it lowered as soon
as I released it. I can see the pin is worn some.
Click to expand...

Skip 1,2,3,4 and move rite to

5) eliminate the suspects
6) perform the repair (lift cover is coming off)

Or shim the draft set up and ship it...

If cover is coming off forgo the shim... I like the shim because it confirms a adjustment issue all else is GOOD I lost nuttin because the big fat arse draft spring is coming of if I dissemble the lift cover for repair...

I have never checked the pressures if I ever need to will pin my buds down for help. :) Question what else do you need to know its a adjustment issue yank the lift cover its not that bad...
Click to expand...
I don't mind taking the lift cover off Hobo.
Had several of them off and repaired them on N's and NAA's.
At least I don't have to deal with the linkage from top cover to pump.
Testing the pressure here at least showed me I had more than one problem.
Since it was a free test, other than the new gauge, it seems worthwhile.
Other questions? I wonder if I can bolt a Jubilee top cover on there.
Got one of those to spare too! :)
 
(quoted from post at 22:17:21 04/06/17)
(quoted from post at 21:49:12 04/06/17)
(quoted from post at 06:27:47 04/07/17) I changed that pump this evening, thanks for that tip Wayne.
Now I know better too. I did change the flat seal that was
between my 1954 NAA pump and the tubes for an O-ring
but I don't know if that flat seal was original to begin with.
It wasn't a gasket, just a flat rubber washer as opposed to
a true O-ring on one end of the pump. O-ring on the other.

Here's the current set of symptoms.
I put it all back together and bled the pump using a tube ran
back to the fill hole. Put the plug in and raised the touch control lever.
I had basically the same symptoms. Lift raised to about 19 1/2
inches. That's in position control mode, nothing in draft mode.

Then I put the gauge back in the port under the seat, chained the
lift arms down and raised the touch control lever. 1700 PSI and
it stayed there. Rock steady. That's far different. Still no leaks.

I can see the linkage moving inside the cover when I move the
touch control lever so I took Hobo's suggestion and pushed the
linkage a little further manually.
The lift would go up farther, but I couldn't get 100% lift height.
The linkage was also spring loaded back so it lowered as soon
as I released it. I can see the pin is worn some.
Click to expand...

Skip 1,2,3,4 and move rite to

5) eliminate the suspects
6) perform the repair (lift cover is coming off)

Or shim the draft set up and ship it...

If cover is coming off forgo the shim... I like the shim because it confirms a adjustment issue all else is GOOD I lost nuttin because the big fat arse draft spring is coming of if I dissemble the lift cover for repair...

I have never checked the pressures if I ever need to will pin my buds down for help. :) Question what else do you need to know its a adjustment issue yank the lift cover its not that bad...
Click to expand...
I don't mind taking the lift cover off Hobo.
Had several of them off and repaired them on N's and NAA's.
At least I don't have to deal with the linkage from top cover to pump.
Testing the pressure here at least showed me I had more than one problem.
Since it was a free test, other than the new gauge, it seems worthwhile.
Other questions? I wonder if I can bolt a Jubilee top cover on there.
Got one of those to spare too! :)
Click to expand...
AA cover might bolt on there but it won't work. In out hyd tubes on right side differ, the backpressure valve arrangement is different, and likely more.
 
(quoted from post at 08:17:21 04/07/17)
(quoted from post at 21:49:12 04/06/17)
(quoted from post at 06:27:47 04/07/17) I changed that pump this evening, thanks for that tip Wayne.
Now I know better too. I did change the flat seal that was
between my 1954 NAA pump and the tubes for an O-ring
but I don't know if that flat seal was original to begin with.
It wasn't a gasket, just a flat rubber washer as opposed to
a true O-ring on one end of the pump. O-ring on the other.

Here's the current set of symptoms.
I put it all back together and bled the pump using a tube ran
back to the fill hole. Put the plug in and raised the touch control lever.
I had basically the same symptoms. Lift raised to about 19 1/2
inches. That's in position control mode, nothing in draft mode.

Then I put the gauge back in the port under the seat, chained the
lift arms down and raised the touch control lever. 1700 PSI and
it stayed there. Rock steady. That's far different. Still no leaks.

I can see the linkage moving inside the cover when I move the
touch control lever so I took Hobo's suggestion and pushed the
linkage a little further manually.
The lift would go up farther, but I couldn't get 100% lift height.
The linkage was also spring loaded back so it lowered as soon
as I released it. I can see the pin is worn some.
Click to expand...

Skip 1,2,3,4 and move rite to

5) eliminate the suspects
6) perform the repair (lift cover is coming off)

Or shim the draft set up and ship it...

If cover is coming off forgo the shim... I like the shim because it confirms a adjustment issue all else is GOOD I lost nuttin because the big fat arse draft spring is coming of if I dissemble the lift cover for repair...

I have never checked the pressures if I ever need to will pin my buds down for help. :) Question what else do you need to know its a adjustment issue yank the lift cover its not that bad...
Click to expand...
I don't mind taking the lift cover off Hobo.
Had several of them off and repaired them on N's and NAA's.
At least I don't have to deal with the linkage from top cover to pump.
Testing the pressure here at least showed me I had more than one problem.
Since it was a free test, other than the new gauge, it seems worthwhile.
Other questions? I wonder if I can bolt a Jubilee top cover on there.
Got one of those to spare too! :)
Click to expand...

I did not mean to make it look like you wasted time testing pressures. My test is to hook to something heavy and manually work the linkage... If it will do the work satisfactory then pressure is not a issue...
 
Yea I used Hobo's quick fix. I use a pie weight washer. Drill out the hole and fit like a glove. You can see the fit on the washer on the pin before I cleaned it
up. Slide it all back together and the 3pt arms went for barely 16" to 33" high. And didn't have to fight the top cover off.

Kirk
hyd%20fix_zpsni5fgs60.jpg
 
I tried your quick fix with the washer. Worked like a charm. Went from rasing barely 16" to 33". Thanks for posting it.
 
I tried it too Kirk. In my case it didn't make a difference.
Must be a different problem.
Cover will come off when I get some time to do it right.
 
(quoted from post at 00:32:36 04/15/17) I tried your quick fix with the washer. Worked like a charm. Went from rasing barely 16" to 33". Thanks for posting it.
Click to expand...

Its not a fix its a temporary band-aid...
 

BTW I learned it from Zane its in his bag of tricks I did not overlook it :wink: If you ever get in there and get it repaired and adjusted save the washer for the next time you need a quick'e...
 
(quoted from post at 20:44:46 04/14/17)
(quoted from post at 00:32:36 04/15/17) I tried your quick fix with the washer. Worked like a charm. Went from rasing barely 16" to 33". Thanks for posting it.
Click to expand...

Its not a fix its a temporary band-aid...
Click to expand...
I understood that when I tried it, but since the linkage and T that
are behind the big spring came off by hand, it was worth trying!
Unfortunately, no joy. C'Est la vie
 
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