Ford 750 Backhoe: problem with turbo Ford 256 CID diesel

750owner

Member
Hi, thanks for some past help from fellow forum members. Now an new issue.

Background:

I have a mid-70's Ford 750 backhoe, got her for a song and after a lot of work she's running. Nothing like a "cheap" machine.

Originally: I was told turbo (#1) apparently blew, lots of black smoke, sat in field for a year or two, engine filled with water, frozen, etc. That's when I got her, got the engine working in the field, put on a new turbo (#2), and drove her home. However, I then discovered that the real problem, likely leading to the original demise, was a pinhole in a cylinder causing coolant to leak into the oil and turn it into a nice grey milkshake (and hence zorching the turbo bearings). The #2 turbo bearings were done too, but I rebuilt it. The shaft was still a little loose, but workable for the time being as I ultimately discovered the pinhole issue.

I had the blocked sleeved and no more oil leak. I probably should have done the crankshaft too but runs okay, a little knocking. Turbo #2 was getting a little too loose so I got yet another turbo (#3) and installed it. It ran fine okay for probably 20 hrs, though smokey. Turbo #2 had a higher than spec ratio and made less smoke, so I originally attributed the smokiness to the difference.

Now the current problem:

Turbo #3 suddenly started puking oil out of the turbine end into the exhaust. I immediately checked the oil and added all of about 5 quarts!! (wow... 11 quart capacity). I had checked the oil when I put turbo #3 in, so the excessive consumption occurred in that time frame. Also, oil was dripping down the side of the engine and was sprayed around a bit, some obviously coming from the turbo, but it also seemed like some was squirting out from the return line fitting. I cleaned up the mess, fixed a seal on the return line, checked the turbo shaft play (which was tight) and everything was fine until it suddenly happened again.

Not knowing much about this issue I did a little research and it seem like the problem is some combination of:

- crankcase over-pressure (though crankcase/valve cover vent is clear)
- clogged return line (doesn't seem to be the case)
- some clog in the turbo cartridge (haven't taken it apart yet)

What I did do was disconnect the bottom end of the return line, start the engine, and observe how much oil was flowing. It was basically a continuous but small drizzle, the kind you get when you're eeking the last bit of oil out of a quart jug. Maybe 1/2 cup per minute.

Question: is this right?? I can't find any spec's but it sure doesn't seem so.

I'm guessing some of the orifices in the cartridge at this point are in fact clogged, possibly from the turbo having overheated and burning some oil in it, when it should have gotten a cool down period. Plan A is to pull the turbo and overhaul it. I'm also waiting for parts for #2, which always worked fine aside from the bearing issue.

However, all this doesn't explain the possible squirting out from the return line fitting. That area was pretty wet and clearly some oil squirted out of somewhere. It just didn't look like it all came from the turbine.

Ideas on any of this? Any suggestions appreciated.

Side note: when I started the engine with the return line disconnected from the sump, some oil did splash out of the fitting that leads to the sump, which wasn't a surprise. Would it be possible though that under certain circumstances enough oil could splash up to basically vapor lock the return line? It's all very puzzling.

Thanks in advance.
 
Update:

I rebuilt the turbo#2 today, a very nearly identical T04. Basically I put the shaft from #3 in #2, along with new bearings. However, I did not replace the oil seal on the turbine end of the shaft, since it is a nearly new shaft. Read on.

Reinstalled.

Same problem, though the leak _definitively_ is from the turbine outlet. The 750 doesn't have an airtight seal at the turbine exhaust, so it leaks right at the port. The leak rate it a drop every second or two, and of course, lots of oil smoke.

Unfortunately I don't have any way to readily measure the oil pressure at the supply end. Is it possibly too high? There is an oil over-pressure relief valve at the oil pump down in the sump, I suppose it could be faulty though I don't know why it would have suddenly developed a problem. Many things I read said you want the "bottleneck" to be the journal bearings and no restrictor/etc. so that shouldn't be an issue.

The return line is about 1/2" pipe and seems clear. Certainly I can blow through it no problem, though it's possible it has some buildup on the walls.

Lastly, I suppose the oil seal on the compressor end which I didn't replace could in fact be bad. It's the "piston ring" type. I have a new shaft coming in a couple days--I'll put together turbo #3 again with it and swap.

Still, I'm baffled.

Thanks
 

I'm guessing the bearing is an anti-friction type and not some kind of rolling element like a ball or roller, just a slow drip is good if you have the right PSI on the supply line into the turbo. That indicates the bearing clearances are tight. If it's just pissing out, too much clearance.

Is the oil pressure gauge working? That should give you an indication that the pressure is in the ballpark. Installing a known good mechanical gauge would be a good way to diagnose if you don't have trust that the gauge is correct. A stuck relief valve can happen at any moment, all you need is the plunger to jam in the bore; it might stick wide open and no pressure. Or it might stick closed and want to blow the oil filter off the engine. The fact your engine had water in it means a good chance of rust in the relief valve bore or plunger. I'd verify the oil pressure is correct as a first step, then verify the lube piping is not blocked; something like rubber tipped blow gun thru the drain pipe, or whatever you can think of to do..
 

Thanks El Hombre.

An update from what I just got done doing:

Took the turbo apart again and replaced the piston seals on both ends. The seal on the turbine end was about .003 thinner, presumably from some wear.

Reassembled the turbo, and everything is tight.

While I was at it, I checked the return pipe by pouring some oil through it, and it comes out as fast as I can put it in. So that's not a problem.

I loosened the sump end of the return line to see it spits, and also took off the oil fill plug to make sure there's no excessive crankcase pressure. Started her up and it sill leaks.

I had some time ago replaced the oil pressure sender since it was dead, and while the dashboard gauge isn't calibrated (just an "okay" zone), I disconnected it and put an ohm meter on the sender.

9 ohms at 0 RPM, 35 ohms at 600 RPM, 41 ohms at 1000 RPM

Supposedly the sender is 3-160ohms for 0-145 PSI, so at 1000 RPM it's showing around 35 PSI give or take at the gauge, which seems normal too. Unfortunately I don't have anything better at my immediate disposal.

The oil pan is a bear to get off on this machine, so I'll defer checking the pressure relief valve for now based on what the sender is saying.
 
Also just checked the service manual. Spec oil pressure is 60-70PSI at 1000 RPM with the relief valve set to the same.

Perhaps this gauge calibration is not what I think it is. Looking into it further.
 
More updates, more frustration. HELP!

After a bunch more research, I did the following:

- Stood the cartridge more upright/vertical. It was off a good bit.

- Re-bent the stock return line/pipe to take out an 8 inch horizontal section and angle it down. This could explain why the leak had been intermittent (i.e. when going uphill it's backing up). The line by the way is probably about 5/8 ID, which appears to be plenty big according to research.

- Got an oil pressure test gauge. Reads 20-30psi in the 600 to 1000 rpm range, which is LOW (!)

- checked the oil return rate, which is heartier now, prob. 1/2 quart/minute which seems fine.

And the verdict.... still leaks like a sieve.

So, against all recommendations, I made a restrictor plate, basically a metal plate like the gaskets, except with a smaller hole in it. I made it .139"

Still leaks like a sieve. .139 is probably too big though. Going to make another that's about .110.

(This is against all wisdom on journal bearings. I found a good youtube video that talks about the return. Basically, one should be able to feed it a good amount of pressure and it should just drain provided the line is good. One should never use a restrictor on a journal bearing cartridge.)

Could the low oil pressure be a problem? That is at the pressure sender port. I can't imagine there is _more_ pressure at the turbo.

Next step, tear the turbo down again and check bearing lash/etc.

Any and all ideas welcomed.
 
Call me confused. You seem to think that excessive pressure is to blame for your turbo leaks, and you are even going so far as to restrict the flow to it. And yet in the same post, you seem to think that low system pressure is the reason for your ills??

In spite of the confusion, at least on my part, a couple of things to point out:

1) Unless the turbo turbine and/or compressor wheels are rubbing against the housing, the bearings are just fine. Turbo bearings have a lot of built in clearance in them when they are new. This is because the bearings are "full floating", they are not a press fit in the housing like many other bearings are.

2) 20-30 PSI @ 600-1000 RPM is NOT low! A 256T Ford engine is lucky to make 10 PSI at low idle. In fact, Ford had to restrict the flow to the oil cooler on later models to maintain adequate oil pressure at idle on those engines.
 

Hi Bern, thanks for responding.

If you think you're confused, believe me, I have you beat!

To explain the pressure confusion:

I cannot figure how the turbo would be leaking oil if it were not over-pressured somehow, and the return line is very clearly not the cause (unless I'm missing something), given also that the bearings are all new and there was no slop in the shaft. So the pressure has to be coming from somewhere.

I suppose it's possible the compressor side is back pressurizing the cartridge, but I haven't read of that happening anywhere online. So that only leaves the oil supply line. I can't measure the pressure directly at the turbo oil inlet (since there's no way to attach a fitting), only at that oil pressure sender gauge port. The thing is I don't know how the internals of the engine are plumbed (the shop manual explains everything EXCEPT for the turbo supply), so I don't know that the pressures should be the same. Do you know more about this?

Regardless of what the pressure is, in an attempt to get the thing to stop leaking enough to use it for now, I decided to try a restrictor. A restrictor may also isolate the problem a little more (e.g. that it's the supply line, or not...)

Anyway, I hope that explains it.

Thanks for your note regarding the 256's oil pressure spec's. The shop manual however says for the oil pump:

Pump Pressure. .. . . . . ..60-70 psi(4.2-4.9 kg.sq.cm.)at 1.000 rpm

Relief Valve Pressure . . . .60-70 psi (4.2-4.9 kg. sq. cm. ) at 1 .000 rpm

I take it your numbers are from your own experience? I'm not sure why the disagreement. I'm presuming the tach is correct (seems so).

One thing about the oil pressure is that there is supposed to be a gasket between the oil pump outlet and the block, which I'm not sure is there. If/when I pull the oil pan, I'll make sure it's in there.

Lastly, on Garrett's website I found a FAQ page that says their journal bearings need at least 40psi. So that's an additional concern if in fact it's only getting 20-30 psi from high idle to 1000 rpm.

So nothing about my problem adds up... UNLESS the bearings suddenly got worn out again. I'm getting new parts in today so I'm going to rebuild a second turbo and try it.

Anyway, thanks again. Any further thoughts appreciated.
 
I've worked on more 256T engines than I care to count, so I hope you take this as credible info...

First off, if the repair manual really states 60-70 PSI @ 1000 RPM, it must mean pump RPM and not engine RPM (I believe pump RPM is 1/2 engine speed). As I said in my last post, getting adequate pressure on those engines at hot idle was so tough than Ford finally put a restrictor in the oil cooler line to remedy the problem. 10-20 PSI at hot idle is nothing to be alarmed about. Once the RPMs are up, those engines should make 40-50 PSI easy.

I don't know why you're having so many turbo issues, unless something is being damaged or misplaced during assembly. The factory turbos were quite robust, and it was pretty rare to see any failures. Are you sure it's oil being passed through the turbo and not unburned fuel? It is not unusual to see cold fuel slobber out the exhaust in cold weather. If it really is oil, I would NOT try and restrict the turbo oil inlet to compensate. You need to figure out what's going on with the turbos you're putting on there.

A missing gasket between the pump and the block would not make enough difference in pressure in my opinion, and is not worth pulling the pump off for. It's two flat surfaces bolted together. Besides, if you really have 20-30 PSI at idle, that's really good.

The turbo supply line gets its oil from the same main oil gallery that you're tapping your pressure gauge in, so no, there's no way you're getting higher pressure at the turbo than what you're measuring at the side of the block.

Anyway, those are some random thoughts, in no particular order.
 

Hi Bern, thanks again, I'm delighted to have someone with your credentials chime in.

1000 rpm pump speed certainly makes sense, and believe me, I'm elated about not to having to pull the oil pan (which on this particular machine is a major PIA--one of the forward engine mount pins is welded in for some reason, a bush repair it appears). Based on your input, I'd say then that the oil pressure is just fine, though I am a little concerned about the 40psi minimum which Garrett recommends. I suppose at higher RPM's it's getting it though.

The substantial amount of goo coming out of the turbo I'm quite sure is oil. It's way too viscous to be diesel fuel (raw at least). But I'll examine that. It's a pretty significant amount, enough to see it dripping out and bleed all over the side of the block in a few minutes.

Now here's another thought--what if a cylinder is puking oil somehow? I had the block sleeved and after I rebuilt it, it had/still has a knock. I did put in .002 oversized rod bearings, which were reasonably tight. I'm guessing the bearings in one piston might be a little worn. But... why would that cause an oil leak? If one piston or rod flat was broken, that would be much more noticeable. I might pull the exhaust header and take a look to see if one port is particularly wet.

I just got parts for another turbo rebuild, so I'm about to get on that. I'll post results...

Thanks
 
You'll never get 40 PSI at idle with that engine unless it's really cold, maybe. I'd be happy with 10 plus at hot idle, and 40 plus at working speeds, again, hot.

You could definitely be on to something when you suggest that maybe the oil is coming from one or more cylinders. And yes, the best way to determine that is by pulling the exhaust manifold. If you do discover that all of this oil is coming from one cylinder, it must be a damaged or mis-installed oil ring, by my way of thinking. There's no way that a loose bearing will cause a cylinder to pass oil.
 

Hi Bern,

I pulled the manifold and since there was oil that had dripped back down from the turbo, I cleaned it off, plugged the turbo oil line, and ran the engine without the turbo for a few minutes. Oil was puking out of manifold for cylinders 2,3,4. 3 was worst. So that's clearly the problem, not the turbo at all.

I pulled the head and couldn't see anything obvious, other than that there was oil everywhere. I do think I had reused the head gasket last time, but it looked fine.

The engine had stopped with all the pistons at about half way down and cylinder walls were wiped, but there was oil dripping down from the lips. The leads me to believe the oil is coming from above. The rings were new with the cylinder sleeves.

I pulled the valve springs off for #3 to see how the valves were. They are slightly loose, but don't seem like they are too terrible. I don't have a micrometer set unfortunately, but I am willing to believe they could be leaking. The valve seals are fine but I'm not sure what they do since they just seem to ride up and down on the valve stems.

The manual gives acceptable valve guide tolerances of up to .0045", and then it talks about "replacing" the guides if it's more than that. I am presuming that it means using oversized valve stems (which it talks about) and reaming the guides if needed. Does that sound right? Or are the actually pressed in there somehow?

I'm still loathing the idea of pulling the oil pan off, but it sure seems like the piston rings aren't it. I'll cycle the engine a bit with the head off and take a look. I suppose I can also take a small piece of pipe, seal it around one of the valves at the bottom, fill it with oil above the valve guide, and wiggle the valve by hand to see if I can get it to leak significantly.

Anything you can recommend based on these findings?

Thanks again in advance.
 
I have a bad feeling about all of this. I've never seen valve guides pass as much oil as you seem to indicate here. I don't think it's even possible. Excessive valve guide wear is not something I've seen on these engines. As for the seals, the intakes are not supposed to use any, and the exhausts only have the little square cut o-ring in the rotator.

My hunch is that either the rings were damaged on installation, or else for some reason your rings are not seating and the engine simply needs to be worked hard until they seat. Since you've already pulled the head off, you have quite the dilemma on your hands, and I'm not sure how to advise you here without having a better sense myself of just how much oil it's actually passing.

Who put the engine together? What kind of a ring compressor was used? How much force did it take to get the piston into the bore?
 
If only one cyl was sleeved... did you remove the ridge from the top of the other cyls?? how much did you remove... if not, did you break the top ring from not removing the ridge? did you line up the ring gaps correctly? did you over remove the ridge,, common problem with a cheap reamer on a diesel engine...

Used head gasket instead of new... could be sucking oil out of one of the oil passages...

Did you mic the cyl for play.. if over 13thou, you will not get the rings to seat and they will leak forever...3thou is better (gas specs) diesel specs are even tighter.. are cyls out of round or belled at top and bottom?




turbo must have oil input nearly perfectly on top and drain must nearly perfectly centered on bottom.. or it will not drain the oil and burn it...
 

(reply to post at 08:15:57 08/19/16)

Hi Bern and stxbill,

Just a bit of history for context: when I got this machine (for very low $) the engine was seized. I managed to revive it in-frame by pulling the head, reaming out the substantial ridges, soaking things in solvents, and eventually getting the pistons out. I honed the cylinders, put in new rings, put it back together, and it ran fine. Obviously I'm not going for perfection, as it's a "budget fixer upper bush machine". I'm also doing this out in the field, not in a shop (I wish...).

What I didn't know at the time is that it had a pinhole leak in #1 which was killing everything once the oil foamed up with the water. In fact that probably is what killed the machine for the previous owner, particularly the turbo. So I pulled the engine and had the block sleeved, all 4 cyl. I reassembled it myself, same parts but new rings and a conversion kit, and with a new piston in #2 since I had accidentally damaged it while it was out of the engine. (the tab at the lower end had cracked off on one side, presumably because the rod clanked into it hard while setting it down or something--lesson learned).

It ran fine, no leaks (water or oil), though one cylinder had a knock, which I presume is one of the pins in one of the pistons. I'm motivated to find that at this point since I've already got the engine mostly apart, oil pan aside with is PIA on this thing as noted previously. At first I thought it was one of the crankshaft bearings, but I pulled the pan off and put in +.002"s, which didn't solve the problem but they fit without any fuss.

I also ordered another turbo, #3, since #2 had suffered much like #1 did from oil foaming and blades were starting to rub on the housing. However, I have probably run the machine 20-30+ hours at least after the sleeving/rebuild, with no problem except the knock.

When I installed turbo #3, it smoked more than with #2 but I figured that it was because it was because of less boost. #2 had more than the spec boost but at the time it was the only turbo the dealer had handy that was suitable. After I installed #3, I probably ran 5-10+ hours until the present leak started. I cleaned the leak up once and fixed a few weak seals, and it was fine for a short bit more until it happened again, which brings us to the present.

To answer Bern's question about assembly: I put the rings on the piston with ring pliers, and spaced the gaps as according to the manual I have (I can't remember if it was 180 degree offsets or 120). To install the pistons I used an autozone loaner ring compressor, a coiled piece of sheet metal with a little ratchet on the side to tighten it up. I used a little oil, and tapped the piston into the cylinder with a mallet. It took a fair bit of force since there's a lot of friction on the compressor tool, but I'd done this a couple times already with the original rebuild and I would say it wasn't out of the ordinary from what I'd experienced. I'd loosen the tool just enough to keep it from binding on the piston itself (i.e. just the rings). I also didn't see any scoring or anything unusual to suggest the rings are off when I pulled the head. So I'm inclined to believe they aren't the problem unless the somehow got rotated. That said though, I am probably going to pull the pistons out anyway to try to find the knock, so I'll look them over.

sotxbill, I didn't measure the sleeved cylinders since they just came back from the (reputable) machine shop, plus I don't have the precision tools. Also, the head gasket showed no signs of leaks, certainly not around the cylinder edges.

Also, thanks for the note on turbo angle. Though I've eliminated the turbo as a problem, I originally set it in accordance with turbo #1, which was dialed in to fit the existing plumbing. Anyway, it's quite upright now.

Bern, even though you suspect that it's not the guides that are leaking, my favorite theory is that it's sucking oil out of the intake valves on the intake stroke, that's not combusting all the way, and is getting blown out in the exhaust stroke. This would explain why it's happening to at least 3 of the cylinders with approximately the same consistency (#1 I'm not sure of--it might have been leaking a little but I didn't run it long enough). I would estimate it's 1/2 teaspoon per minute per cylinder, enough to get the exhaust ports wet and dripping within a few minutes of running after wiping them dry with a rag.

I'm also going to crank the engine a bit with the head off to see if the pistons are producing oil into the cylinder. I'll have to plug up the oil ports on the top of the block. Or would this be a waste of time for some reason, like the various pressures not being there with the head off?

Anyway, thanks again for the input.
 

If you have the head off you may as well drop the pan and pull the pistons and rods out to have the rods checked.
I've had a few of these type engines apart and have found some with the rods piston pin hole out of round enough it required replacing the rod with a good one, a couple where bad enough that while cleaning them the pressed in rod bushing fell out.
Another note: 256 turbo engines have oil feed holes in the rods to oil the piston pins and help cool the pistons, the proper bearings will have a hole in the center to align with the hole in the rod.
Did the bearings you installed have this hole in them, I ask this because the non turbo engine bearings will fit but don't have the oil hole.
Turbo engines have 1 5/8" wrist pins where non turbo engine use 1 1/2" there forth they use different rods and pistons, also turbo pistons use keystone style tapered top rings and some non turbo engines use straight cut top rings.
I say this because I worked on a 256 non turbo engine where someone had install the wrong rings. 4 sleeves and another complete overhaul kit later we got it going again.
 
If you are convinced the problem is in the head, have a competent machinist give you a second opinion. As for rolling the engine over with the head off, I'm not sure how conclusive that will be.
 

I would have the head checked as Bern said... manafluxed... all valves pulled and guides checked, reamed or replaced.. all seats and surfaces check.. Positively eliminate the head... However even this will cost a bit by a qualified and competent machine shop. Knuraled guides, well I am not a big fan of them but did a bunch of them in my younger days... Pressing in new guides was better fix all around.

Lots of tractor heads have the valve springs designed in to a "well" or sunken in the head to keep them covered in oil to keep the valves from rusting and getting stuck from sitting long periods... And these types of heads will pour oil into the cyls with a bit of guide wear. I dont know if your head is this type or the later type.
 
Hi All,

I took the head in today to have it done. The valve guides are definitely a bit worn, but I'm still not 100% sure that's the problem, much as I like to think so.

Today I looked at the cylinder heads, and they were all "damp". Reading around and from others' opinions, any oil in the cylinders themselves would ordinarily be burned.

I can't imagine it's wet stacking (which I just learned about), since I've been running it hard at times (~2000rpm, driving uphill).

It makes sense that oil could be leaking directly into the exhaust manifold from the exhaust valve guide. That's what I'm hoping. But it doesn't explain the oil everywhere else, such as around the lip of the cylinders. All that points to the rings again.

Today I'm going to crank the engine a bit with the head off to see if I can detect any oil coming up the cylinder walls, and then pull the pan and the pistons, if nothing else, to find the knock.

Wish me luck.

Thanks
 

Update:

Below is a photo of cyl #2 after I wiped it dry and cranked the engine for about 5-10 sec. Enough oil covers some but not all of the cylinder wall to the point where it drips. I wiped my finger through the middle of it in the photo.

#3 has about the same mount, #4 some, and #1 very little, which is consistent with how much was coming out of each exhaust port.

So this is definitely pointing at the rings, yes? These were a set of Hastings rings I think, prob about $40/cylinder. The cylinders had just been sleeved. I don't have any way to mic the cylinders for roundness but it was a reputable shop.

I'll probably order a new ring set, pull the pistons, and run a monkey ball hone through each cyl before reassembling when I get the head back (and hopefully find the knock too). Sound like a plan?

Thanks
 

Results:

I pulled the pistons today and to my surprise, a lot of the rings had wandered around significantly.

For instance, cyl #3 had all three compression rings nearly lined up, and the oil ring was about 120 degrees off.

Oddly enough, #2 which was leaking the most, wasn't too off, but still had some ring wandering.

I can say with confidence though that I had lined the rings up as prescribed. I am surprised.

I popped off one compression ring and stuck it back in the empty cylinder to measure the ring gap, which was about 1.8mm, vs. the .3-1mm spec. Surprising as well--that seems like a _lot_ of wear in such short order. I'll probably get a new set and drop them in, or is this excess gap not significant?

1,3,4 all have a fair bit of slop in at the piston pins. #2 is a new piston. I'll get new bearings (and pins if needed). The crankshaft bearings all look good.

Honed the cylinders for reassembly.
 

Sounds like you may have found your knock if there's much slop in the pins, Pull the pistons off the rods and check the bushings.
That's a lot of ring gap, what was it when you rebuilt it.
 

Got to wonder.. did you have the wrong rings... wrong sized and not for a turbo model?

And .. with 4 new sleeves.. I would mic the new sleeves... top, bottom and middle... I would spin the mic around and make sure you really got the sleeves at the correct size..

Your ring gap,, makes me wonder whats happening with the rings or the sleeves in a short time.. or I assume a short time. New sleeves should make the new piston on the one cyl very tight and almost a drag through the cyl. ring gap should be in spec at top and bottom of cyls... so whats up with that...

either way.. good luck and get it fixed right, and your good for another 40 years. be patient.....
 
Well, the saga continues.

It turns out the head has some sort of cracks, apparently going into the fuel injectors. Without having seen it, I guess that oil could be leaking into the exhaust manifold through that path in some way.

Any ideas on how such a crank might come to be?

New head on order, new pistons and rings in hand, new piston rod bushings on order. Once all that's together, she ought to be humming like a well oiled sewing machine...
 

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