1965 Ford 3000 help

lae736s

New User
Sorry if this has been covered before, I am brand new, and not very mechanically inclined.

I have a 1965 Ford 3000. 12V. 3 cylinder Gas.

I acquired the tractor as part of a land purchase so don't know much history, but it ran fine when I first bought the farm 3 years ago. After a while it would run for quite some time, and then seemed when it got too hot, it would just shut down and not start again. When I would come back the next week it would start right up and go to work again for an hour or so.

The first winter I had it, the starter went bad, battery died, and rats chewed through all 3 spark plug wires.

Got the spark plug wires replaced, got the starter repaired and put back on, the tractor started up, but then starter wouldn't disengage and the engine wouldn't shut off when I turned the key off. So I replaced the solenoid, that didn't help. Now I take the ignition wire off the solenoid after I start it and the tractor runs and starter shuts off.

Now to my REAL problem that I'm most stuck on. The other day I ran the tractor for a couple of hours with no problems. I chiseled, disc'd, etc. everything went fine.

Then the next weekend I came out and hooked the plow up. It was going okay in 1st gear on Low. Well then I got impatient and threw it into 2nd gear and as soon as I started plowing in 2nd gear it was like the load was too much for it, and it started sputtering/revving/sputtering/revving and then died. Sounded like it ran out of gas, but it didn't. I added more fuel to be sure, but no help.

So I let it sit for a week, went back out and it started right up, ran like a horse in 1st gear for about 5 mins, and then started sputtering/revving/sputtering/revving and died. It will immediately start right back up every time, but then it sounds like it's running out of fuel, the roars like it's okay again, then sputters, then recovers, then eventually dies.

As far as what ive done:

-Poured sea foam in the tank
-tried running with gas cap off
-checked air filter and it was clean (ran tractor with it entirely removed and no chance)
-removed sediment bowl and saw good consistent fuel flow.

Now I'm stuck. Can't figure out why the tractor would almost die and then catch itself and surge multiple times before finally stalling, and then start right back up and do the same thing.

I removed the carburetor and was planning to take it in to get rebuilt, but it's gonna be $100-150 and I don't even know if that's the problem?

Thanks for any help in advance.
 
In the years that I've owned my 3000, I've had to take the little gas filter apart located just by
the carb. It gets clogged with gel from ethanol gas. Perhaps is okay for two years after
that. I have generally used nothing but ethanol-free gas, but that's because it sits for long
times.
 
I'd replace the key switch your problem might just go away. If not you will have one less problem. Less than $10 on this site.
 
Yeah, the mechanic I originally worked with down there was going to install a push button starter switch to cut power to and from the solenoid. Need to do something there obviously.

Just didn't think that would be related to the tractor almost dying like it's running out of fuel, then surging, then dying, etc. on and off each time I start it?

Thanks for responses.
 
When it runs bad first thing to do is check your spark. You want a bright bluish white spark thay will jump at least 1/4".
Short or yellowish spark will not do.
Pull a plug wire and hold it next to the head and look.
As Sean says, it sounds like your coil may be going bad.
 
A $10 key switch isn't going to guarantee any problem is going to go away. I gave up on all the junk aftermarket gas key switches and only sell the OEM diesel switch for both fuel types.
 
If the key switch is still energizing the solenoid after it's released it may not be making good contact to the distributor. Does a 3000 use a resister bypass if so a full 12v might be getting the coil to hot?
 
Thank you guys for your responses...

Regarding the coil... I believe when I had a mechanic out looking
at the ignition/starter problem a few weeks, he cut a wire off that was running from the small 'S post' on the solenoid to the coil. Could that have caused a problem with the coil? He said it wasn't necessary and was part of the problem with the starter not disengaging.

Also, just for learning purposes, how does the coil cause problems that appear to be fuel related? (Stalls and surges)

Thanks again!
 

Go back to basics, check the compression you may have a tired engine.

The first 2000 I worked on was for a bud it was as nice a machine as you will run across. It would fire off cold but if you let it shut down hot are shut it off it was a beach to get to restart. I adjusted the valves it really helped it for a year are so but it was back to the same old chit. It was my first lesson on a Holley carb I was sure it was a carb issue from what I had read here. I am not one to follow and know very well how to check spark. When I am confident in my diagnosis I always go back to basics. The compression was low best I remember 90 maybe 80 it never smoked nor gave me a indication the compression was low other than it was a hard starter HOT.

Check you basics...
 
Also, just for learning purposes, how does the coil cause problems that appear to be fuel related? (Stalls and surges)

The windings in the coil are coated with a thin insulation, sort of like a shellac or varnish, and that insulation breaks down eventually from the heat of the coil over the years. When the insulation gets to a certain point of wear it starts to develop small, almost microscopic, cracks, and this causes shorts from one winding to the next inside the coil. At first it does it only when hot as the copper of the windings expands with the heat and causes the cracks in the insulation to open up, and when it cools down the copper shrinks and the cracks close back up, but eventually the edges of the insulation at the cracks start to crumble and the gaps are larger and larger when cold.

The reason that it seems to a lot of folks like a fuel issue symptom is that they assume that the coil is going to produce the same amount of spark in all conditions, when in fact it won't. When it heats up and the cracks in the insulation open up and cause internal shorts from one winding to the next, the spark gets weaker and the lower current from the weaker spark allows the coil to cool slightly which can cause the copper, and subsequently the cracks in the insulation, to shrink slightly, which reduces the shorting and makes the spark stronger again, which causes more current to flow, which causes it to heat up again, etc. Plus the crumbling insulation moves around from the vibrations of the tractor running, which changes the amount of spar being lost to the shorting. If you put an in-line spark tester on one of your spark plugs and your problem is being caused by the coil going bad, you will see the spark get weaker when the problem is happening than it is when the coil is col and the problem is not happening, and when it stumbles you will see the strength of the spar fluctuating in cadence with the stumbling.
 
Great explanation, thank you so much for your time. So, excuse my
ignorance, but is there a reason to do the coil test, and not just
replace the coil if I don't have the proper tools? I saw a coil that
looked just like the existing one for like $15 on this site. Is it tough
for an amateur to replace?

Also, I was just reading on another forum that somebody had found
out the new spark plug wires they put on their ford 8n were the
culprit. I guess it wanted copper core wires, not newer technology.
Could that be part of my problem as well? Or if it ran fine for a few
days on those wires is it likely okay?

Thank you again, I'm learning a lot.

Luke
 
It's best to do proper diagnosis rather than buying parts that you might not need. It could be something in the fuel system, but the spark is easier to test, and should be done first before tearing into anything in the fuel system.

Another quick and easy thing to test is to loosen the gas cap when it's having the problem, and if loosening the cap helps then it has an unvented cap or the vent is clogged.
 
Outstanding dissertation Sean.

I like to do that too. I solve problems by realizing that the house was built one brick at a time. I like to take it to the brick level, understand that
then apply that brick to the building. Knowing how things work helps to understand how they don't work when broken. Would be nice if more
people took the time to do as you did. Course they have their reasons.

....and yes the coating is a special formaldehyde based varnish made specifically for the application; but you probably already knew that.
 
(quoted from post at 21:29:51 08/16/16) Ok, yeah I've tried running with the gas cap completely off and it
made no difference.

Sean's explanation about the coil is spot on.

The fact that your solenoid to coil bypass was causing troubles raises my eyebrow too.

That bypass should only be there if your coil has a resistor installed between the keyswitch and the coil. In those systems, the key has 12V (nominal, depends on what the battery/generator is actually putting out). The resistor drops about half of that voltage to put somewhere around 6Volts on the coil. The solenoid bypass allows the coil to run a little "hot" with full battery voltage just during starting. You get a little extra spark from the temporarily overvoltaged coil to help you start.

Now...if someone got rid of the resistor, you would have 12V at the coil whenever your key is turned on, you would have 12V ....which would also put 12V at the solenoid whenever the key was "ON"...not just during starting, if that bypass was installed.

Your friend cutting that bypass wire solved your starter/solenoid overrun problem?

I wonder...most solenoids have a "must operate voltage". If the voltage is lower, nothing happens. If the voltage is higher, it activates. I wonder if someone got rid of the resistor in your system and the coil/solenoid bypass were running too high.

That would slowly cook your coil, possibly make your starter overun AND stress all of the other components in your ignition (points, condenser, etc).

I just bought a 3000 that ran similarly to yours. Starts cold. Cuts out hot. Starts like a beach... The resistor was removed. The solenoid bypass was removed, and it was running with a coil only meant to have 6V on it. My brother-in-law swore up and down about fuel...called all of his friends that fix things...they all swore up and down about fuel.

I bought a spark tester and noted...just like Sean said...that the stumbling was in cadence with poor spark.

Bought a complete tuneup kit (disti cap, rotor, points, condenser, plug wires, coil) and put things back the way it was supposed to be....although...truth be told...I bought a "12V coil", left the solenoid bypass off and left the resistor off...since I couldn't find a good source for the resistor (or sometimes, Ford used a length of "resistor wire" to the coil)...I really couldn't find either, and the one that I made at work out of resistors that I had was too damn bulky to wire into the tractor.

Runs like a champ.

The fuel pump that I bought to appease my brother-in-law sits on a shelf in my garage.

Parts cost money...so I won't blame you if you don't "shotgun" the whole ignition system like me...but time is money too. If your wiring and ignition parts look like crap...why not replace them anyway and test your spark to know that it's good? If you plan on keeping the tractor, a complete tuneup is a good idea (in my very humble opinion) anyway.

No matter what other problems the tractor has (valves, compression, fuel...whatever) you need to know that the spark is rock solid and consistent when the tractor is cold and hot before any other problems even matter.
 
By the way.

I bought my spark tester at Advance Auto. Somewhere around 20 bucks. When everything was put right, the spark would jump to the "2/0" line with a nice blue/white spark.

Initial testing at the coil output showed a spark that was sometimes there and sometimes not. When it was there, it wouldn't jump that gap.

Also remember...even if your spark is crap at the coil output...it might not be only the coil that's goofy. The primary side of the coil completes its charging circuit through the points to ground(the tractor chassis) inside the distributor. So, bad points, a bad condenser or a bad distributor ground won't allow the coil enough "on" time or "dwell" time to properly charge the primary. If the primary doesn't get enough current for a long enough time...then there isn't enough magnetic flux in the coil to transfer energy to the secondary for a nice, strong spark.

In my case, it seemed everything was a little off, not just the coil.

In hindsight...I wish that I had a "dwell meter"...maybe someday :)
 
I also eliminated the key as a problem by jumpering over it with a little alligator clip wire...

I see a few people mentioned that...and yeah...I would hate to send you off on a coil/points/cap/condenser/distributor hunting trip if you truly did just have a key problem... make sure you eliminate that as a possible cause. They can be flaky!
 
Thanks again for all of the great responses. Very helpful.

To answer your question, the only thing my friend removing the wire
from the coil to the solenoid did, was eliminate the problem of the key
not turning the engine off. So what was happening was a two-fold
problem and neither was really "solved"

1). When the solenoid "I" post was wired to the coil, the engine would
not shut off when I turned the key off. We would have to pull the
cable off the battery to get it to stop running. Turning the key to
start it would work, but not to stop it.

2). Once we figured that out, we realized that the starter was not
disengaging once the motor was running. And we discovered that
pulling the wire running from the key to the "S" post on the solenoid
would get the starter to stop cranking. But the motor would keep
running until I turned the key to off.


So basically I was just running things like that for a few days (very
jeri-rigged I know) but I was getting by.

That was until the tractor started sputtering/surgering back and forth
and then ultimately dying once it warms up. It will immediately start
right back up pretty easily, but then sputter/rev/sputter/rev until it dies
again.


I guess my question would be, could someone explain what the key
would have to do with the sputtering/revving? And why it would only
do it when the tractor is warmed up? I'm just uneducated.

Lastly, regarding a resistor on the ignition, I know nothing about that,
but I know whatever it had on it when I bought it nobody has
removed. So it worked, I just don't know weather it had one or not.
 
(quoted from post at 12:44:22 08/17/16) Thanks again for all of the great responses. Very helpful.

To answer your question, the only thing my friend removing the wire
from the coil to the solenoid did, was eliminate the problem of the key
not turning the engine off. So what was happening was a two-fold
problem and neither was really "solved"

1). When the solenoid "I" post was wired to the coil, the engine would
not shut off when I turned the key off. We would have to pull the
cable off the battery to get it to stop running. Turning the key to
start it would work, but not to stop it.

2). Once we figured that out, we realized that the starter was not
disengaging once the motor was running. And we discovered that
pulling the wire running from the key to the "S" post on the solenoid
would get the starter to stop cranking. But the motor would keep
running until I turned the key to off.


So basically I was just running things like that for a few days (very
jeri-rigged I know) but I was getting by.

That was until the tractor started sputtering/surgering back and forth
and then ultimately dying once it warms up. It will immediately start
right back up pretty easily, but then sputter/rev/sputter/rev until it dies
again.


I guess my question would be, could someone explain what the key
would have to do with the sputtering/revving? And why it would only
do it when the tractor is warmed up? I'm just uneducated.

Lastly, regarding a resistor on the ignition, I know nothing about that,
but I know whatever it had on it when I bought it nobody has
removed. So it worked, I just don't know weather it had one or not.



I'm getting a little turned around. I thought that your friend cut a wire between the solenoid and the coil to keep the starter from overrunning.

Either way, maybe just go back to basics.

One thing at a time.

Make sure that there is no wire between the solenoid and the coil.

Under those conditions, the starter should only turn when the key is in the "start" position. The engine should only run when the key is in the "on" position. If there is still an issue with the starter overrunning...or the engine not shutting off. Then you have some funky wiring between the key, solenoid and starter. (and some other mystery path to the coil...because the coil should have no voltage to make any spark if the key is off...and there is no wire from coil "+" to the solenoid)


After you get the engine starting and shutting off the way it should...look at your coil voltage...just turn the key "on" without starting and measure the voltage at the coil "+" terminal. Is it around 6V, or is it around 12V?

If it's closer to 6V, you have a resistor in line. If it's around 12V, you have no resistor. (assuming that your battery is good)

If you don't have a voltmeter. Find a friend or mechanic that you can trust :)

Running rough intermittently can be caused by any of the components in the ignition system. The key could have flaky contacts. They could make contact initially and then lose contact when the tractor vibrates. The coil could have cracks in its insulation that are OK initially and then short it out when the tractor warms up. (just like Sean explained) Inside the distributor, the condenser is just a capacitor...which also has layers of insulation between conductive parts...which could be fine when cold and flaky when hot.

More rare and subtle problems could be due to mechanical issues with the distributor itself (springs, weights, bearings...all need to be in good condition). Probably not your issue...but it's a possibility

All of this adds up to, the tractor needs to engage the starter when it should, disengage when it should, run when the key is on, shut off when the key is off and have good consistent spark whenever the engine is turning over.

That should all be nailed down before looking at fuel, compression, valves, etc, etc.
 
Sorry for the confusion. I never had mentioned in my original post
'WHY' the guy pulled the wire from the coil to the solenoid. (To the
best of my memory anyway). Just that he had. The reason he did
that was because the motor wouldn't shut off when I turned the key
off when that wire was connected.

After that, the motor would shut off when I turned the key off.
However, we still had the problem that the starter wouldn't disengage
once the motor was running. To solve that problem, we had to hold
the wire that ran from the ignition onto the "S" post on the solenoid,
and then once it started, pull the wire off the S post, and that would
stop the starter from continuing to crank.

The tractor would then run fine until I turned the key off, and it would
shut off the motor.


It ran just fine operating like that for a number of days, doing discing,
chiseling, up/down hills, etc.


A week or two later, I hooked up the plow, and tried plowing and
stupidly threw it in 2nd gear, and that's when all the stalling/revving
problems started.

Hope that clarifies the chronology. Sounds like I need to check the
coil, but since it ran fine with the ignition/solenoid all jeri-rigged, it
doesn't appear that's related to the stalling/surging right?
 
(quoted from post at 16:42:11 08/17/16) Sorry for the confusion. I never had mentioned in my original post
'WHY' the guy pulled the wire from the coil to the solenoid. (To the
best of my memory anyway). Just that he had. The reason he did
that was because the motor wouldn't shut off when I turned the key
off when that wire was connected.

After that, the motor would shut off when I turned the key off.
However, we still had the problem that the starter wouldn't disengage
once the motor was running. To solve that problem, we had to hold
the wire that ran from the ignition onto the "S" post on the solenoid,
and then once it started, pull the wire off the S post, and that would
stop the starter from continuing to crank.

The tractor would then run fine until I turned the key off, and it would
shut off the motor.


It ran just fine operating like that for a number of days, doing discing,
chiseling, up/down hills, etc.


A week or two later, I hooked up the plow, and tried plowing and
stupidly threw it in 2nd gear, and that's when all the stalling/revving
problems started.

Hope that clarifies the chronology. Sounds like I need to check the
coil, but since it ran fine with the ignition/solenoid all jeri-rigged, it
doesn't appear that's related to the stalling/surging right?

Well, from a million miles away...it sounds like your solenoid is shorted. It should always have battery voltage at the battery side, but it should only have voltage on the starter side (which sounds like it was also originally connected to the coil to boost coil voltage during starting) when the key is in the "start" position.

So that seems to take care of your starter overrunning mystery.

So, stalling and surging when the tractor gets hot.

Could that be ignition? Yes. As Sean explained the coil could be failing momentarily when it gets hot. That would stall. Then, if the coil comes back momentarily, you get spark and there's some unspent fuel in the cylinder; so you get a surge.

The same thing could happen if your condenser is failing momentarily when things get hot.

Or the points.


But yes. Stalling and surging could be a carburetor/fuel issue.


Part of the troubleshooting that I did on my 3000 that was stalling and surging and such was to put a funnel and pan under the carburetor when it was running in this stall/surge mode. I then loosened the plug on the bottom of the carb. (Have gloves on!). In my case, a stream of fuel as thick as my pinky came spewing out of the carb.

That eliminated fuel supply as an issue.

It didn't eliminate the carb itself.

At that point, that's when I looked at ignition, testing the spark and such and found intermittent spark. When I fixed that, everything went away.

In your case, you could check the fuel flow, like I did. If no problem with that....then check spark....

if no problem with that...then maybe look at the carb itself

Beyond that, you're into the core of the engine (valves, rings, pistons, etc...) which could be initially checked out with a compression test.

So, in my very humble opinion. If you were trying to troubleshoot in a sequential fashion with a mystery like this, I would look at:

-Fuel flow to the carb...by pulling the plug when the tractor is trying to run. If you get a trickle...look at fuel supply (screens, pump, etc).

-If fuel flow to the carb is good, look at ignition. (because carburetor kits are a little pricey and these carbs aren't easy to rebuild).

-If ignition is good (under all conditions, at startup and after tractor warms up), then you have a fork in the road.

you could look at the carb itself....

or you could consider doing a compression test (again..because these carbs aren't easy to rebuild). Another piece of information that might help you decide what to do here is your oil pressure. If you have an oil pressure gauge, do you see your oil pressure go to crap when the tractor gets hot? If it does, I would maybe skip over the carb again and look at compression.

Intermittent problems are A PAIN! All I can do is share my limited experience and hope that some tidbit helps shorten your path to having it running right again :)
 

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