Ford 3000 Pics and follow-on questions

lastcowboy32

Well-known Member
Here are some pictures and some questions to go with.


"Resistor wire 067"???? I was also told that a 3000 should have a 6V coil. Did this tractor have the wrong coil to begin with? Alternatively, what changes are made to enable the use of a 12V coil?

38409.jpg



Both power steering cylinders bleed out the end. Seal kits are inexpensive. What tool do I need to undo the cap? Looks like some kind of little spanner wrench? How do I identify the cylinders that I have? Measure the shaft diameter...and are there numbers on the cylinders somewhere?

38410.jpg


Alternator is indeed a Delco. Checkout the picture after this one for question:

38411.jpg


Looks like, at some point, a group of wires on a flag tab (lower left of regulator) were disconnected and another wire (in my hand) was cut. Probably part of generator to alternator conversion?

38412.jpg


Numbers stamped on the carburetor. Just toward the rear of the tractor, relative to the carburetor throat. Is this my Holly carburetor model number?

38413.jpg
 
Sorry...Holley...has an e in it.

Still curious, because I didn't see 2R-35895 or even 35895 in the list of carburetors that the YT kits will fit.
 
Here are my comments.
The coil resister is bypassed when the starter motor is engaged to compensate for voltage drawdown/load on the battery. When the key is released to run the resister is in the circuit to reduce the 13.x voltage provided by the charging circuit.

I have found the Holley carburetor to be very touchy to "rebuild". Fuel float level is extremely important. Many (myself included) have elected to use an aftermarket replacement Zenith carb.
The fuel line pump/carburetor connection is (at least on my brothers) difficult to reconnect.

There is a screen the bottom of the tank that can cause difficulty if clogged.
 

Thanks. There is a useful tidbit in there that I didn't expect...about the bypass during cranking.

When testing the coil output with the ignition tester, sometimes there would be no spark during cranking, and then spark would appear during the last few coasting revolutions when the key was taken out of the "start" position.

Even then, I don't think it was jumping as far as it should.

Your explanation tells me that there is a "bypass" during start cranking...which would explain two different situations...during cranking and during "coasting" when the key is just ON. Seeing as how I had the coil wire routed to the ignition tester, there is no way to measure while running.

I'm wondering if that points me in any direction to look at the spark issue.
 

And yes, many resources online confirm your statement about the Holleys being touchy to begin with (especially the vacuum actuated accelerator) and even more touchy to rebuild.
 
It is unfortunate that most coil manufacturers these days label coils that way. A coil that is labelled as "12 volts use with primary resistance wire or external resistor" is in fact a 6 volt coil. If you use that coil in a 6 volt system it will not need any external resistance wire or external resistor. When you use it in a 12 volt system you need to add external resistance in the form of either an external ballast resistor or a resistance wire. The additional resistance provides a voltage drop that brings the voltage applied to the coil and the points down to around 6 volts.

Sorry I can't answer your questions about the steering cylinders for sure, as we don't now if they were original to the tractor when it left the factory or if they were replaced at some point or even if it might be a third party after market power steering system that was added. If they are original then you would use a pair of snap-ring pliers to remove the snap ring from the groove, remove the end off of the rod and slide the snap ring, bushing, washer and seals off of the rod. The part number for the seal kit for the rod would be CAPN3301A if the rod is 3/8" diameter. If the rod is 1/2" diameter, then the original part number for the seal kit was
CAPN3301B, which has been superseded by part number 87045114.

The wires that were cut were most likely those that were no longer needed when the alternator conversion was done, but we can't tell for sure without tracing them all to see where they go.

The part number for the original Holley carb would depend on when the tractor was made:
1/65-8/68 - C5NN9510M
9/68 & up - C9NN9510B
Both of which have been superseded by part number 87045114.
 
(reply to post at 09:13:01 07/26/16)

So the coil should say...nominal 6V coil...in a 12V system...blah blah blah.


That makes complete sense and would explain why the 12V coil that I bought is a little soft in the spark department.
 

I didn't see snap rings in the end of the cylinders, sadly, because I have the cadillac of snap ring plier sets.

If you look at the picture, there is a little square notch at about 5 o'clock in the brass-colored ring that surrounds the output shaft. There are (I think) two others spaced at 120 degrees around.

It looks to me as if there would be some kind of spanner that locks into two or more of these square notches???
 

I guess others have had similar issues. It seems that there are three styles (at least) counting different Ford versions of the power steering cylinders and dealer installed retrofits.

This thread on another site has some info...

http://www.external_link.com/20-ford-new-holland-tractors/156723-ford-4000-power-steering-cylinder.html
 
The wording on the coil is very descriptive. It's written in plain english too.

It SPECIFICALLY tells you that the coil is for use in a 12v application when you have extra resistance in the primary circuit... . either as resistro wire or a discreet resistor.

The coil is correct for a standard gas 3000 with a ball of resistor wire in line with the coil.
 
(quoted from post at 12:27:47 07/26/16)
I didn't see snap rings in the end of the cylinders, sadly, because I have the cadillac of snap ring plier sets.

If you look at the picture, there is a little square notch at about 5 o'clock in the brass-colored ring that surrounds the output shaft. There are (I think) two others spaced at 120 degrees around.

It looks to me as if there would be some kind of spanner that locks into two or more of these square notches???

That is possible, but that would mean that the cylinders are not the original factory power steering cylinders for a 3000. The original factory cylinders had ends that were not removable, and all you could "rebuild' was the rod end seals, which were held in place by a snap ring. Here is a link to the parts drawing for the original factory cylinder:

[u:51716e79b7]Ford 3000 power steering cylinder[/u:51716e79b7]
 
the coil in your hand is correct for a 3000 gas tractor with resistor wire.

You ask.. what changes would be needed to use a true 12v coil.

lets look at that.

If you use a 6v coil with resistor to work on 12v... wouldn't it make sense to use just a 12v coil and no resistor to run on 12v?
 
(quoted from post at 11:20:37 07/26/16) The wording on the coil is very descriptive. It's written in plain english too.

It SPECIFICALLY tells you that the coil is for use in a 12v application when you have extra resistance in the primary circuit... . either as resistro wire or a discreet resistor.

The coil is correct for a standard gas 3000 with a ball of resistor wire in line with the coil.

We can cordially agree to disagree on the fact that the wording is descriptive...especially since your own defense of it includes more verbage than what's on the coil.

When I see the words "12V Coil"....I think it's a 12V coil...Not a 6V coil in a 12V application.

I will accept being called crazy for that...no problem.
 

Yes, it makes complete sense...now...I just got boogered up by that big "12V" emblazoned at the top of all of the other verbage.
 

Using a 12V coil with no resistor isn't necessarily equivalent to using a 6V coil with a resistor.

The resistor could be a thermistor type that has low resistance cold to allow a hotter spark during starting (I think that many call that a "ballast" resistor) and then the resistance increases as current flows over time to protect the coil from overheating.

If I use a 12V coil with no resistor, then the only resistance is the coil resistance, which doesn't have this thermistor or "ballasting" action. It would be high resistance right at the start, which could mean poor starting performance.

So...not knowing the properties of the primary resistance wire or external resistor...(which is part of what I'm asking here) would leave me in the dark as to the feasibility of switching coils.

If it needs a 6V coil...I'd rather just admit my mistake in buying the 12V coil and get the right one.
 
You asked for help.

You demonstrate an incomplete and very novice if any electrical knowledge of practice electrical theory.

Your conclusions are shakey at best, and plain wrong at worst.

I wont be wasting any more time giving you electrical advice.

Nor will I tell to any of your questions needing assistance. You already presume to know the answers.
 
Using a 12V coil with no resistor isn't necessarily equivalent to using a 6V coil with a resistor.

No one said that they were exactly equivalent. In fact, one of us pointed out that the 6 volt coil with an external resistor allows you to use a bypass wire so you can get a hotter spark while starting, which you cannot do with a 12 volt coil that does not use an external resistor.

The resistor could be a thermistor type that has low resistance cold to allow a hotter spark during starting (I think that many call that a "ballast" resistor) and then the resistance increases as current flows over time to protect the coil from overheating.

You are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

The total resistance of a points based ignition circuit is not designed to control the current in the coil to keep it from overheating. It is designed to be fixed at a value that keeps the voltage at the points within a specified range to provide enough voltage at the points to provide adequate spark while protecting the points from being damaged from too much voltage.

A ballast resistor used in an ignition circuit is usually a fixed value resistor that does not change its resistance with temperature. According to wikipedia:

A ballast resistor is a series resistor placed in line with the load and may be a fixed or variable resistor.

A ballast resistor in a fluorescent light fixture does change its resistance with the temperature, but a ballast resistor in an ignition circuit does not.
 
Not sure why the animosity.

I was confused.

I bought a 12V coil...I admitted it was wrong and agreed that the 6V coil is right...just like soundguy said...then argued using sound principles why a 6V coil with external resistor is possibly different than a 12V coil.

As far as variable resistance ballast. I learned about that right here in the forums with regard to my 2N tractor.

A 2N has a 6V coil with an external "ballast" resistor that is low resistance at first for starting and high resistance over time with current applied. In modern electronics...such a resistor is called a "thermistor" or a "PTC thermistor"...with PTC standing for Positive Temperature Coefficient.

I mistakenly wired a fixed resistor into my 2N...and I was taught the difference between a "fixed" and "ballast" resistor by the guys in the 8N forum.

It actually isn't that complicated....I screwed up buying a 12V coil...I need to buy a 6V coil.

I don't think that my understanding of electronic principles is lacking...as evidenced by circuits that I've designed in thousands of units for various employers that are working just fine.

I do have trouble with some of the nomenclature and labeling of parts and such with these old tractors....then I go into TSC for parts (probably another mistake) and their labeling is different.

Then...there are all of the retrofits and things that get done to them over the years.

Just trying to sort it out.
 
I mean...

I have a 2006 Kia...says so right on the registration...bought it brand new in 2006.

I go to do the rear brakes on it a couple of years ago...go to the parts counter...ask for rear brakes for a 2006 Kia Spectra LX...

Guy hands me pads.

I get home...car has a drum brake with shoes...

I go back to parts store...clerk searches around...2005 Kia Spectras had drums...sends me home with 2005 shoes.

Get home...doesn't fit...go back to the parts store...a new clerk says...maybe it's an early 2007? Sure enough, 2007 Kia Spectras have drums...sends me home with 2007 shoes

It fits.

So...sure...during that whole process...myself and various clerks are wondering aloud about what part goes where and why something that should be obvious isn't...why would a car with 2007 brakes be registered as a 2006. (I was burnt a year later with the alternator...asked for a 2007 alternator, figuring that I learned my lesson with the brakes...got home...wrong connector. Car had 2007 brakes and 2006 engine...)

In none of that did I accuse the clerks or did the clerks accuse me of not knowing about brakes....it's just that sometimes parts are weird...ya know?
 
Have some fun reading Dell's comment on the subject of ballast.



http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=323365
 
Not sure why the animosity.

I was confused.

You came here and asked questions. After we provided answers you started posting things that made it seem like you were trying to teach us something, when in fact what you were saying wasn't correct. You were the one asking questions, not us. souNdguy is one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum about electrical systems. He gets a little touchy when people ask for his advice and then either ignore it or try to say that something he has said is wrong. I have worked in the electronics field my entire life and I have learned a few things from him.
 
Your understanding of application is lacking. 9n, 2n, early 8n dint have 6v coils.. The coil is more like a 4v coil, thus the ballast resistor.
 
(quoted from post at 17:23:53 07/26/16) Your understanding of application is lacking. 9n, 2n, early 8n dint have 6v coils.. The coil is more like a 4v coil, thus the ballast resistor.

Then people should call it a "4V coil"...my understanding would be far greater. You , Soundguy are the only person that has ever called it a "4V coil" to me. So...you're trying to undo what has been put in my head by markings, box labels...

Know what I mean?

Guys...I'm not trying to teach anybody anything. I'm thinking out loud. As in...

(thinking out loud) if I try the 12V coil...and I pull the external resistor...what could go wrong???

or...(thinking out loud)...Sean tells me that there's a bypass during starting...where is that located? If I jumper over that during troubleshooting, how does that affect my ignition test results?

I've torn through the tractor last night looking for any form of external resistor or special resistor wire or ignition bypass I can't find it. Is it in the "control box"?? Is it in the keyswitch itself? Or...do I have to cut the tape/loom off of the wiring harness to find it?

Right now, I find a large gauge (my guess is 10 or 12) brown wire with a red stripe that comes from the keyswitch terminal labelled "IGN"....I trace that to where it comes out of the harness in the battery tray...it then has a smaller green wire extending it down to the coil itself.

That green wire looks like just regular wire to me. It looks sketchy and the splice was "wiggly"

I jumpered over it, and I could get my ignition tester to jump the proper gap... 2/0 as specified by Hobo in his reply.

But it's still intermittent.... I'm also pretty sure that my problem is spark...not fuel...because I connected the ignition tester to one of the plug wires and tried to fire up the engine.

The ignition tester at the plug wire had no spark when the engine was spitting and sputtering...when it sort of kicks in and runs right for a little while, I have spark at the ignition tester plugged into the spark plug wire.

So...intermittent crappy engine running corresponds to intermittent no spark.

intermittent no spark is intermittent right out of the coil

intermittent no spark is still intermittent when I take a very long jumper wire directly to the keyswitch from the coil +....also intermittent when I jumper over the keyswitch from battery to IGN...

So I'm trying to figure out how to test the coil ground tonight.

The coil - terminal comes out of the bottom of the distributor. I'm not relishing digging in there.
 
By the way....

Picked up a "6V coil" from Tractor Supply last night (as labelled on the box)

The box says... 6V coil, use external resistor in 12V application

I open the box...The coil itself says...

6V Use no external resistor


So....if I sell this tractor to someone 5 years from now...and they just look at the coil....

And we wonder why people are confused???

Why can't they just put a manufacturer's name and part number on it? I'll look up the specs on the web. Yeeeesh!
 
(quoted from post at 11:16:45 07/27/16) By the way....

Picked up a "6V coil" from Tractor Supply last night (as labelled on the box)

The box says... 6V coil, use external resistor in 12V application

I open the box...The coil itself says...

6V Use no external resistor


So....if I sell this tractor to someone 5 years from now...and they just look at the coil....

And we wonder why people are confused???

Why can't they just put a manufacturer's name and part number on it? I'll look up the specs on the web. Yeeeesh!
ant another opinion? Coils are typically labeled for the system voltage they are expected to work with. 6v tractor=6v label on coil. 12v tractor=12v label on coil. And in your latest coil acquisition, 6v=6v tractor with additional information that if used in 12v application, use external resistor.
Label actually tells you nothing about the coil terminal voltage when in use. Maybe all coils should be labeled, "4.75 ampere coil, user selects resistor (or none) value to obtain 4.75 amperes. Like that better?
Tip: you can't find resistor wire, so try this to determine whether you have one or not: Normal connections in place, points closed or you can just ground the coil terminal connected to distributor and momentarily turn on ignition. Measure voltage at battery to ground AND from coil battery terminal (the terminal fed by ignition switch) to ground. If same or within fraction of same, thee is no resistor wire, but if substantial voltage difference in the two measurements, then that difference is the voltage drop in the resistor wire.
 

I did that Sunday and measured about the same voltage both ways.

Measuring voltage to the coil was something that I did early on to diagnose the issue....to see if it was the switch or something between the battery and coil.

When I still couldn't figure things out, I tried jumpers...on the odd chance that I had good static measurements (engine off...key on and so forth) that were intermittent with engine vibrations.

If I go by those measurements, there is little to no resistance between the battery and coil.

I didn't think about it too much, because I figured that the resistance (if it was there) could be pretty small at startup or when cold...especially if it's some kind of thermistor...ballast...whatever...I'm getting antsy about which word I use...but I hope you catch my drift.

I still can't find a description of what the normal inline resistor would be in a Ford 3000....what is "Primary Resistance Wire 067"

The "6V coil" from tractor supply got hot as a pistol in the circuit after a few minutes, it worked, but intermittently.

My original coil (shown in the picture at the beginning of this post) works intermittently .... as does the "12V" coil that I bought from tractor supply.

All of them will...with good connection to the IGN terminal of the keyswitch...produce a spark at the coil output on my ignition tester at the "2/0" marking, which I'm told is correct.

Hence...my thinking that the coil negative connection to distributor is the next on my list of things to check.

Thanks
 

Edit...I should say above that all of them, with good connection to the IGN terminal of the keyswitch will INTERMITTENTLY produce spark at the coil output that jumps the 2/0 gap on my ignition tester...
 


And...actually...yes...I do like the 4.75 ampere rating. Is that correct? Because I'll put a friggin meter inline while running and measure the current.

That would be far easier than trying to discern the difference between 0.5 ohms and 0.7 ohms of external resistance...etc, etc, etc
 
"I did that Sunday and measured about the same voltage both ways." Just to be clear, current must be flowing (points good closed contact OR coil distributor terminal grounded) when making measurement, because the resistor will drop no voltage without current flow.
You speak of coil becoming very hot within minutes. Can you configure you multimeter to measure current? If so connect it between coil terminal that normally goes to distributor (wire now disconnected) and ground , turn on ign sw, measure current.
 

lastcowboy32,
You state: "Right now, I find a large gauge (my guess is 10 or 12) brown wire with a red stripe that comes from the keyswitch terminal labelled "IGN"....I trace that to where it comes out of the harness in the battery tray...it then has a smaller green wire extending it down to the coil itself."
Guess what, You "found" the resistor wire! Hint it's brown with a red stripe. (;>)
There should be a SECOND wire on the same post on the coil. It should come from one of the posts on the solenoid. That is the bypass circuit that provides higher voltage (no resistor wire) to the coil during startup (when the system voltage is reduced by running the starter).
As far as your problem, I think you would do best to work on the INSIDE of the distributor.
Do you have high quality points set to the proper gap installed?
All the screws tight?
A high quality rotor and cap with no oxidation on the contacts? Someone mentioned the rotor before.
I hope you find your problem soon.
HTH
Keith
 


Thank you guys....now we are getting somewhere!

No...there was no wire from the solenoid to the + terminal of the coil. So the bypass was missing, if that's where it is supposed to be.

Yes...I can configure my meter to measure current, I just needed to know what current to look for.

THANK YOU!!!!!
 


And Keith...YES! I think the distributor could be sketchy...but I would really like to see constant, proper spark at the coil output at all times before I dig into that too.
 
(quoted from post at 12:56:08 07/27/16)

And...actually...yes...I do like the 4.75 ampere rating. Is that correct? Because I'll put a friggin meter inline while running and measure the current.

That would be far easier than trying to discern the difference between 0.5 ohms and 0.7 ohms of external resistance...etc, etc, etc

An ammeter in series with the coil while running will not read 4.75 amperes, as the points are constantly opening and closing and a digital meter will have a constantly jittering display and an analog meter will display the average current. You would get an accurate measurement with the engine not running and the points closed.

The ignition system in a running engine has a hybrid of AC and DC characteristics because the power source is 12 volts (or 6 volts) DC, but because of the points opening and closing and the electric field around the coil expanding and collapsing, it has some characteristics of an AC circuit.
 
(quoted from post at 13:40:00 07/27/16)

Thank you guys....now we are getting somewhere!

No...there was no wire from the solenoid to the + terminal of the coil. So the bypass was missing, if that's where it is supposed to be.

Yes...I can configure my meter to measure current, I just needed to know what current to look for.

THANK YOU!!!!!
s I said, stalled/points closed or the distributor coil terminal grounded, look for 4 to 5 amperes. If much higher, then someone has probably removed the resistor wire & that would make coil very hot temperature wise. How many terminals on your solenoid?
 

Yes...it would be jittery under running conditions. I'm not sure what an Ammeter set to "AC" would read.

But even a reading under static conditions, like JMOR said, gives me some kind of clue.

If I put the ammeter between the coil negative post and the wire coming out of the distributor that goes to the coil negative...and my current is zero...with the points closed...that would help to show that I have a poor coil negative connection.

Although...might be able to tell by inspection too. I've had the cap off to look at the points, rotor and such...but I didn't dig down to that negative connection.

JMOR. I have a picture of my solenoid on my phone...gotta look it up.
 

Darn...I thought I had a picture. I photographed about everything BUT the solenoid.

Looking through the 3000 parts on YT, mine looks like this one:

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-3000_Starter-Solenoid-12-Volt_D2AF11450AA.html
 
"hen people should call it a "4V coil"...my understanding would be far greater. You , Soundguy are the only person that has ever
called it a "4V coil" to me. So...you're trying to undo what has been put in my head by markings, box labels..."

You should know that a coil that is marked 6v and yet has a primary resistor inline with it is NOT really a 6v coil.

You know that resistor is dropping voltage.. thus the voltage across the coil is not / will not / cannot be 6v.

You just professed profound electrical knowledge earlier....
 
(quoted from post at 14:31:20 07/27/16)
Darn...I thought I had a picture. I photographed about everything BUT the solenoid.

Looking through the 3000 parts on YT, mine looks like this one:

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-3000_Starter-Solenoid-12-Volt_D2AF11450AA.html
ell, that is a 4 terminal, but the FO-31 Shop Manual for 2000, 3000, 4000 models shows a 3 terminal solenoid?????
 

Voltage while running is greater than 6V...is it not?

A "ballast resistor" in a 2N, 9N, 8N...has nearly zero resistance at startup...when system voltage is battery voltage, or nominally 6V...right?

So...a ballast resistor "could" be required, to keep a 6V rated coil a small percentage below its rating to have "design margin"...

I do that all of the time....When I use a transistor rated for 60V Vce in a circuit... I ensure that the voltage in the circuit stays below...say 50 volts...

So yes...a "6V" rated coil...in my mind could need some resistance to extend its operating life in a "6V" system...

So...just because a resistor is in line...to me...does not automatically mean that a "6V coil" isn't rated for "6V"


I design circuits all day long with 12V relays...they are rated for 12V...that's what they are marked...that's what we call them...that's what it says on the spec sheet.

Guess what? We use them in 24V circuits...with resistance inline or pulse width modulation...or whatever to keep their average voltage below 12V...usually even with a little margin...maybe 11V.

Even in a 12V circuit, we may put a tiny current limiting resistor inline with them...or protect them with a zener...TVS...whatever

But...in all circumstances...the part is defined, named and called out by its rating by itself...not the voltage of the circuit that it's used in.

That's why old tractor nomenclature is confusing to me.

And remember that posts here are "tone deaf"...you can't hear my tone.

I got no problem with you sounNdguy..you pointed me toward looking at what coil is the proper one to use in this system is...I'm grateful for that.

Now...figuring out what you're saying...compared to a machine that seems to be maybe hacked up a little...with parts with markings that confuse me....with a list of parts here on YT that don't always match what I have...vs what people tell me I should have....

Gets a little frustrating.
 

And we haven't even talked about the AC characteristics of the circuit....regulators, resistors, condensers, etc.... they also are there to smooth out all sorts of spikes and noise that might not be accounted for in the DC rating of the part.

JMOR. I'll look at my solenoid more closely tonight. Let you know about the three terminal vs four terminal question.

Just hold on and let me get back to you guys. OK?

Thank you all for your help.
 
Your 6v coil needing a resistor fails.

8n sidemounts & sidemount models thru 1964 on 6v use a 6v coil and no resistor.

Face it. Ford used quite a few combinations of coils or coils and resistors on 6 & 12v novels.

You can fake thru tho, or simply be aware of the application.

Evidence on this thread thus far proves faking didnt work well.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaand....I'm going to crawl off meekly to a corner and secretly look at my points...which some have suggested...and I've been sitting here saying..."but...but...my coil output"

It's interconnected, isn't it? I can't get the proper exitation of my coil primary without the points properly opening/closing....

Sure, I looked at them once, but I can't get a good coil output with funky points...or a bad condenser.

I keep forgetting that a lot of the coil's primary circuitry is in the distributor...it's not just straight signal flow of battery...key....coil...distributor. The last two are interrelated... I need to remember that.
 
(quoted from post at 17:22:41 07/27/16) Diesel model maybee? No bypass needed.
anual shows coil & distributor. Maybe manual error? Maybe not all years? Dunno?
 
Did you just post "excitation"? We're getting a little racey here aren't we? ;)

Keeping up with this thread has me wondering if lack of the jumper wire for startup missing is what's making my 3400 tough to start (basket case with alot wrong / missing).

For grins, have you ohmed out the secondary windings for comparison?
 
(quoted from post at 22:15:14 07/27/16) Gears,
Have you ever noticed that you crank and crank and that it fires up when you let go of the key?
That would be a symptom of low voltage going to the ignition circuit.
Keith

Gears, my tractor does exactly that, when I am testing the output of the coil. The spark will jump further when the key is let up than during cranking.

That's on top of the issue where the spark disappears completely for seconds at a time.

So...I did some measuring and such last night, and I brought a few parts here to work (for a better Ohmmeter) this morning.

I couldn't measure current directly at home, because my meter at home only goes up to 500mA. I measured voltage instead.

Here are the conditions:

Key "On".

I took an alligator jumper wire and connected my Positive Terminal of Coil to the end of the Brown wire with Red stripe in my wiring harness.

Negative Terminal of Coil Connected directly to battery negative...as in...I made a short jumper wire with a ring lug... connected it to the negative terminal and a brand new fork terminal at the other end...I touched the fork terminal directly to the battery negative. Now...I controlled when this happened. I would hold the wire in my hand and make/break connection with the battery negative and watch my voltmeter.


Voltage measured from my Coil Positive terminal to Battery Negative:


Voltage at Coil Positive...with no Coil - connection: 13V
Voltage at Coil Positive...with coil - connnection: 11.5V

I think that this tells me that the large Brown Wire with Red Stripe in the harness is not, in fact, the resistor wire. The entire connection from battery to the key and through this wire can be a fraction of an ohm at most.

I then brought some parts in to work and measured with a better ohmmeter.

The entire chain of: the alligator clip wire that I used last night to coil +....through the coil....through my jumper wire to coil -....to the fork terminal where I touched battery negative measured 2.0 Ohms

The coil itself measured 1.7 to 1.8 Ohms (the display was bouncy) This is a "6V Coil" from Tractor Supply.


I still have the green wire that used to connect the Brown w/Red Stripe wire to Coil positive on the tractor...when I first brought the tractor home. I measured that here at work with a good ohmmeter and got something like...0.1...0.2 Ohms. It's hard to zero out the meter well enough. Either way, it's a far cry from the 1.35Ohms that Hobo recommended.


My solenoid is a four post solenoid.


There was no jumper/bypass from the solenoid to the coil, ever, since I've looked at the tractor. (remember...just brought it home a week ago)


The coil that I removed from the tractor measures about the same as the "6V coil" from TSC. I think it's actually still good!


The "12V coil" from Tractor Supply that I bought by mistake draws about half as much current as the "6V coil"....I forgot to bring it to work to ohm it out...but I did perform the voltage drop test on it last night, and the voltage drop at the coil positive was about half of what I described above with the new "6V coil"


I think that I know what to do to make the coil right:
6V coil
Add an external resistor or resistor wire...the old wire wasn't right
Add a jumper to the solenoid...which was missing


I'm now diagnosing the distributor...points...condenser, etc to see about why the whole shebang is intermittent.
 
Contrary to other poster, I believe the Brown with red stripe is a copper wire leaving ignition switch, then transitions to a resistor type wire on the way to the coil (or originally did). Seems like the transition may have been at a connector near the generator location? I do agree that your measurements indicate that you have no resistor in the circuit.
 

And guys....I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods...but I'm on an island here.

The local Ford dealer got rid of "the old guy" that works on old tractors...If I call them, they refer me to the local engine shop or give me the number of some private guy that lives almost an hour away.

Tractor supply sells coils with descriptions like...and I'm not kidding....

"6V coil, use with external resistor, coil has no resistance" on their website...then, if you buy the coil and look at the markings...."6V use no resistor"

I know that a lot of you use NAPA...but I can't go there, unless I know...myself...exactly what I need ahead of time. I need to know the application, specification and everything else to make sure that they give me the right part.


So...yeah...I question everything you tell me.... I measure for myself.


I want to keep this tractor, and I want my knowledge of its operation and its parts to be bulletproof...because, other than the guys here...I have nothing to back me up.

THANK YOU!!!
 


Although...I wanted to install a single remote hydraulic unit on this tractor to run my haybine.

My local dealer (actually two of them) were more than happy to sell me a scrap remote spooler (the one that goes on top of the tranny between your legs) for 500 bucks.

I found one online for 279 brand new. It's already on the tractor. Now...I may have done this out of spite, and I may hate myself in the end...but don't cut off my support and then try to shaft me on scrap parts.

I don't like it.
 
Voltage measured from my Coil Positive terminal to Battery Negative:


Voltage at Coil Positive...with no Coil - connection: 13V
Voltage at Coil Positive...with coil - connnection: 11.5V

I think that this tells me that the large Brown Wire with Red Stripe in the harness is not, in fact, the resistor wire. The entire connection from battery to the key and through this wire can be a fraction of an ohm at most.

Was this with the points open or closed?
 
JMOR,
Sorry, no one piped in and I took a stab at it.
I guess I may not have learned my lesson, because I'm going to take a second shot at a diagnosis.

If the original owner had a problem with the ignition circuit and removed the bypass and the resistor wire. The ignition circuit would have way too much current flow.

This would cause problems with the points and condenser.

Is this an accurate assessment?
Keith
 
(quoted from post at 12:42:51 07/28/16) JMOR,
Sorry, no one piped in and I took a stab at it.
I guess I may not have learned my lesson, because I'm going to take a second shot at a diagnosis.

If the original owner had a problem with the ignition circuit and removed the bypass and the resistor wire. The ignition circuit would have way too much current flow.

This would cause problems with the points and condenser.

Is this an accurate assessment?
Keith
o apology necessary. Likely good assessment, at least as for the points. Condenser sees several hundred volts normally & likely OK.
 

Seems to me that everything, points, condenser...whole shebang must be stressed if the coil primary is running too much current.

I liken the condenser to the snubber in a flyback circuit. Every transformer has that "leakage inductance" that models the energy that doesn't get to the secondary from the primary. The coil in an engine should be similar. The condenser has to soak up everything that doesn't cross to the secondary. I'm guessing that it gets worse when primary current is higher before the points open...which is what I would have had with no resistor or resistor wire in line.

A complete tune up kit with spark plug wires and stuff is relatively cheap.

Sean said to check the disty for any play...so I'm going to do that first, because if there is lateral play and other funky stuff going on, I'm going to need other parts or a whole disty assembly.
 

Keith, I have no problem with your "stab at it"

My glass house has really thin windows, know what I mean?

We'll air it out, measure, verify, adapt, overcome :)
 
The condenser has two related main functions.

It absorbs charge delaying arc at the points until they are open sufficiently, and in that role, it acts as a debouncer.
 

Ps, I dont think your snubber comparison flies.

1, it would be passive, not active.

Of passive types, it would not be disipative, and it does not meet the definition for energy transfer/forward/return as non dissipative.
 
(quoted from post at 15:36:52 07/28/16)
Ps, I dont think your snubber comparison flies.

1, it would be passive, not active.

Of passive types, it would not be disipative, and it does not meet the definition for energy transfer/forward/return as non dissipative.

Good points. Pun intended.

I've seen capacitors put across all sorts of switching/rectifying/inductive devices and called them "snubbers".

In the crudest sense, the condenser is a capacitor across a switch(the points). It protects the switch and reduces switching noise, what you call debouncing. That's probably where the analogy to a flyback snubber ends though, because a flyback snubber usually has a resistor to " dissipate" (as you say) energy that doesn't transfer from primary to secondary.

Or good designers try to design them from switch to source, instead of switch to ground, to recycle some of the energy.

My coffee hasn't kicked in, but I'm trying to think of why a condenser doesn't need a resistor and isn't dissipative. There has to be energy that doesn't get from primary to secondary. No transformer is perfect.
 

...although...the condenser has its own ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance)...because no capacitor is perfect either. Maybe that's enough "dissipation" to do the trick.
 

When the points close capacitor is shorted, rinse, repeat.

Ps. Debounce is a real term, not something I made up.
 
(quoted from post at 04:59:16 07/29/16)
(quoted from post at 15:36:52 07/28/16)
Ps, I dont think your snubber comparison flies.

1, it would be passive, not active.

Of passive types, it would not be disipative, and it does not meet the definition for energy transfer/forward/return as non dissipative.

Good points. Pun intended.

I've seen capacitors put across all sorts of switching/rectifying/inductive devices and called them "snubbers".

In the crudest sense, the condenser is a capacitor across a switch(the points). It protects the switch and reduces switching noise, what you call debouncing. That's probably where the analogy to a flyback snubber ends though, because a flyback snubber usually has a resistor to " dissipate" (as you say) energy that doesn't transfer from primary to secondary.

Or good designers try to design them from switch to source, instead of switch to ground, to recycle some of the energy.

My coffee hasn't kicked in, but I'm trying to think of why a condenser doesn't need a resistor and isn't dissipative. There has to be energy that doesn't get from primary to secondary. No transformer is perfect.
issipation is the opposite of the design plan! The plan is to continue to keep primary current flowing, via the capacitor, as the points begin to open and until they have opened enough of a gap to minimize the arc. Otherwise a large amount of the energy stored in the inductance of the coil will be consumed by the heat of the arc across the points, resulting in the erosion of the points and a very weak spark to the plugs. Just try running your engine without a capacitor….. will not run at all, will run poorly, will not run at higher speeds, depending on several other variables.
 

Pull the distributor and check bushings, advance weights, springs then convert it to electronic ignition and eliminate the points and condenser problem.
Converted a friends 3000 5 years ago, he said it was the best thing that was ever done to that tractor.
 
JMOR, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying.

I was thinking out loud about why sounDguy would say that a condenser doesn't qualify as a dissipative snubber...I was thinking that it was because there was no dissipative element there...as in a true capacitor can be charged and discharged without loss.

In actuality, there is loss in the capacitor, through its own ESR.

So...a condenser may not intentionally be a dissipative snubbedr...but it sure as heck is an unintentionally dissipative snubber (as in actual power dissipated in element...vs dissipating the spark and or current without loss).

My guess is that this loss is proportional to how much energy doesn't transfer from primary to secondary, due to incomplete flux linkage. My guess is that the wasted energy increases with flux...which increases with primary current...which would lead me to think that

My condenser was getting heated more than normal because my coil was getting its primary driven with a higher current than normal.

In general, Mean Time Between Failure is inversely proportional to operating temperature and loading

So...long winded way to say... In my tractor, probably both the points and condenser were getting stressed.

My points looked good initially, but I pulled them out and they may be clean...but they've been wiped hard. Talked to the previous owner... "oh yeah...I would rub them with a file once in a while"

I can't tell if my condenser is bad by looking at it.

Just replacing the whole mess as soon as my parts get in.
 
Is there a reason the last few posts were referring to the condenser as a capacitor?

It was my understanding that capacitors stored energy while the condensers dissipated it.

I know there are ceramic caps used to suppress radio noise in DC motors (ala RC cars) and larger Dielectric caps used in electronics. Both have a + and - side. The condensers in our points ignition have one lead.... I've always been taught that it "catches excess current that was trying to flow through the points as they open, breaking the circuit"

Teaching my boys, I told em the current is flowing and you want a clean break - like if you take a leak, you can't stop it mid-flow, it's gonna be a stuttering stop; the condenser is there to absorb (& dissipate) the current for a quick, clean break. (sorry if that makes you electronic engineers cringe) :)
 

A condenser is a capacitor.

For dc, it stores a charge.

( for ac it couples plus other goodies if you want to look at phase change )

You ignition condenser has 2 legs.. One is the case, the other is the pigtail.

No magic...
 
"It was my understanding that capacitors stored energy while the condensers dissipated it.

I know there are ceramic caps used to suppress radio noise in DC motors (ala RC cars) and larger Dielectric caps used in electronics. Both have a + and - side. The condensers in our points ignition have one lead.... I've always been taught that it "catches excess current that was trying to flow through the points as they open, breaking the circuit"

God help us all!

"The condensers in our points ignition have one lead"

Seriously, you didn't realize the case acts as the other lead???
 

Its like reading a mythology book here sometimes.

More made up stuff and half or no truths than fact...
 
(quoted from post at 19:12:08 07/29/16) Is there a reason the last few posts were referring to the condenser as a capacitor?

It was my understanding that capacitors stored energy while the condensers dissipated it.

I know there are ceramic caps used to suppress radio noise in DC motors (ala RC cars) and larger Dielectric caps used in electronics. Both have a + and - side. The condensers in our points ignition have one lead.... I've always been taught that it "catches excess current that was trying to flow through the points as they open, breaking the circuit"

Teaching my boys, I told em the current is flowing and you want a clean break - like if you take a leak, you can't stop it mid-flow, it's gonna be a stuttering stop; the condenser is there to absorb (& dissipate) the current for a quick, clean break. (sorry if that makes you electronic engineers cringe) :)
would call both the understanding & teaching questionable. But to continue the whizzing analogy, just as you can't stop the yellow stream instantly, current can not change in an inductor instantly. It wants to keep on flowing and if circuit is opened (points opened), the inductor voltage will rise to whatever is necessary to maintain that current flow, even if it has to rise to arc voltage to do it. Around 200v at those points! To keep from overflowing that 'random sample' cup & wetting your hand, you need an alternate path quickly. Switch the flow into the toilet or in ignition system, provide a capacitor for that alternate path. Now, don't be diversionary or deflect attention elsewhere with "but it is DC". Just convince your self with a demonstration, in front of the boys, by connecting 5 or 6 12v batteries in series, lay fore arm against the negative of first battery and hold one lead of good size capacitor in hand of same arm by one lead and touch the other capacitor lead to the last battery positive terminal. I wouldn't use two hands to demonstrate! (heart, you know). You will come to believe (& boys too) that at least as long as you hold on (he he he!), that DC can flow via that capacitor. :D
 
I knew the case of the condensor needed grounded, just never thought of it as a cap - didn't realize the voltage it took in was reintroduced in the circuit to.... Resaturate the coil?

Its always nice to learn more from the forum. Alot of this thread I'm using to help troubleshoot an old 16hp Briggs ignition in my son's garden tractor. The solenoid jumper for my 3400 was a bonus.
 

Yeah.. The bs factor in here is off the charts.

This thread has enough bad info to make a low budget Sci fi show about time travel.

We just got the resaturating flux capacitors
 
(quoted from post at 00:16:43 07/30/16)
Yeah.. The bs factor in here is off the charts.

This thread has enough bad info to make a low budget Sci fi show about time travel.

We just got the resaturating flux capacitors
ep, I think I'm out of here for the weekend, so let the bs flow bro! :wink:
 
J & Sound, not trying to BS, trying to expand my understanding. No one ever taught me, not an electrical engineer - you'll notice the questionmark.

J's explanation about the alternate path made sense (and I believe was somewhat aligned to my whizzing analogy). I appreciate the answers.

Can you explain to me what the hell else the condensing capacitor does besides "absorb" the excess voltage/current as the points open? (It was my understanding it dissipated to ground via it's other leg - the case)

Sometimes people around here remind me of old ladies who'd rather point at the lil' kid walking into the street and bemoan the parenting than help keep the kid from wandering into traffic.

Snide remarks would be much more tolerable if there was an answer given in there as well. If I had the answers I wouldn't post the question now would I?
 

The answer has been given multiple times by both me and jmor.

Capacitor stores a charge. When the points close, the capacitor discharges across the points. No magic. Its a capacitor accross a switch
 
So what does the discharge do as it goes back into the closed points? Seems like that charge would be routed back into the circuit for the coil........ doesn't that contribute to re-establishing the field in the primary which collapses when the points open?

Again, I'm looking to understand where my questions/comments were trending to BS or Sci-Fi. If it's a matter of terminology, I'll work on that.

If my understanding of how the Kettering Points ignition system is faulty, please help me to understand better.
 

I think u till you got at least take a first year engineering basic ac & dc circuits course, you won't have enough electrical theory for us to have a good discussion.

I'll leave you with this current flows from areas of higher potential to areas of lower potential.

The battery is on one side of the coil the points and ground on the other. Capacitor is across points

When points open, and after spark, while you are waiting for points to close, one side of the capacitor sees battery, one side ground.

When points close, anything in the capacitor discharges right across the closed contacts. Thing of taking a capacitor and touching both its legs to a piece of wire. You have made both sides common to each other, same potential, no stored charge. That's the state of the cap at the moment the points open, discharged. As points open, the capacity charges for a very very small amount of time.. While charging, current is flowing, thus coil I not discharging yet.. This gives the contacts tine to get open to limit arcing and pitting at the points.

Rinse and repeat.

Your battery I supplying the electrons.. That's why its called battery ignition.

Cap is there for son critical timing and protection concerning points opening and field collapse.
 
Thanks SouNd,

I figgered the technical side would require re-schooling. No need for a technical discussion I just wanted to understand where I was taking artistic license and be sure my superficial understanding was sufficient to diagnose and repair an ignition problem. I'd always rather understand what's going on than be one of those people who throw parts at a problem until it's fixed.
 

That's good. Shotgun parts replacement many times works, but leaves you not knowing which part fixed it.
 
In the spirit of obfuscation, which I'm finding the FO-series manuals riddled with, after all of this discussion about coils with external resistors and resistor bypasses from solenoid to coil; none of this is shown in Fig 160 on page 56.

It simply shows the Brown wire with Red stripe, labelled as "BR-R" going directly from the key to the coil with no bypass.

Got my parts in today and gathered 1.33 ohms of external resistance. We have a box full of high power, 1 ohm, resistors at work that have been laying around for years. A little creative combining will give me 1.33. The clerks at NAPA gave me a blank stare about resistor wire, even when I had them try to cross reference the numbers that Hobo gave me. Going to wire as was discussed and see what happens.
 

Yup, the diagram for that one is just plain wrong. Doesn't show a bypass solenoid, does show the br-r wire, though doesn't Id it as a resistor. Nor does it show the extra solenoid connection.

Unfortunately, that's where you just have to know the application... Which doesn't help a new owner one bit.
 

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