Ford 5000 rear main seal ????

Hey folks,
Looks like bad luck has found me again.....
Checked oil level in my 5000 only to find it "overflowing". Oil pan had to be FULL!
I figure this could only be due to rear seal failing and trans hydraulic fluid moving into the oil pan.
Any other thoughts????
Guess I will have to split the beast and try to replace the seal.
Any guidance on the process, special tools required, etc? (I do have factory service manual, but if you have done it before, sure would help!)
Any comments on what else to check or deal with while it is opened up?
Seems this might be more work and $$$ than worth, but i have always tried to fix rather than replace.
Thanks for any and all help!
 
Hydraulic oil can't get into the engine on a 5000. Assuming that the engine oil is not discolored or emulsified I would wager that you have either a bad diaphram in the fuel lift pump (or bad shaft seal if it has a rotary pump) or the power steering pump has a bad shaft seal. If it hasn't been losing PS oil, then I'd really assume it's fuel.
If the oil is white/milky/emulsified, then I would assume that you have a porous block that's allowing coolant into the base. Not a nice problem to have. Determine what you have in the oil first and we'll go from there....

Rod
 
The bell housing where the clutch resides is a dry cavity that sits between the engine and the main transmission, and the bottom of the bell housing has a hole in it specifically designed to allow any fluids that leak into that area to drip out the bottom so as to not contaminate the clutch. There should be a cotter pin installed loosely in that hole so that it will rattle around from the vibrations of the tractor and keep the hole clear of dirt. So as Rod has said, it is very unlikely that the excess fluid in the engine is hydraulic fluid from the trans.

My money is on the power steering pump seal, but that's just because it happened to me a while back and I am therefore biased into thinking that is the cause for everyone who has excess fluid in their crankcase.
 
Hey Rod,
Thanks for the reply. Engine oil is not milky/emulsified....seems thinner though.
Power steering was low, but have to ponder THAT much PS fluid to raise level to top of dipstick!
BTW: why would trans fluid not be able to get into oil pan? Looking at things from the side, the tranny seems higher than oil pan. if rear crank seal was bad wouldn't trans fluid move through it into the oil pan? Will check the tranny fluid level and let you know what I find.
Have to admit.....sure am hoping not to have to split this tractor. The fix for either fuel pump or PS pump has GOT to be easier (I hope !!)
Sure appreciate the help!
THANKS!!
 
Hey Sean,
Thanks for the reply! In fact, it answered my question to Rod about the trans fluid. (Duh...forgot about the clutch!)
So the likely culprit is the PS pump. Let me do some homework in the service manual and see if I can figure things out.
How bad a job was it when you repaired yours? Any special tools? Any problems getting parts?
Thanks for the help.....much appreciated!
 
The P/S pump is a possibility but I wouldn't call it likely.... If you have more than a quart high on the stick and you haven't been adding a pile of fluid to the P/S, then the most likely culprit is the fuel pump. What year is this tractor? Does it have a Simms injection pump? If it is fuel... don't be running it or you're going to wipe out the bearings pretty quick.

Rod
 
My 4000 ended up reading more than a quart higher than the full mark on the dipstick when I noticed the power assist steering didn't have any power anymore. The power steering pump on mine was pretty bad looking on the outside anyway, the reservoir was all dinged and dented, and I couldn't find any replacement reservoir covers out there, only rebuild kits or whole pumps, so I just bought a new pump.

You never did say whether it has a diesel engine, but if it does, then Rod's argument for it being fuel is just as valid, and if the level is really high, probably even more valid than my argument for the power steering pump.
 
Rod,
Best I can tell the tractor was made in Dec 1965 (you think they'd have no problems for at least 60 years!)
It does have the Simms injector pump.
Have added PS frequently...but to the top of the oil stick is a LOT. Have to say though....the oil does have a whiff of hydraulic smell. (???)
Hope I haven't ruined bearings. I was bush hogging for quite a bit one afternoon. Found the issue when I checked the oil the next day. Embarrassed to say I had jumped on it the previous day without checking.
 
Well, if it's consistently losing p/s oil and the engine oil is rising, I'd go after the pump seal... No worries about the bearings there. Don't be surprised if the pump is buggered tho. It's worth looking at the seal but not much more. If it's got bad bearing blocks in the pump I'd just replace it with an integral reservoir pump as it will be a good deal cheaper than what you have.... but it will require a bit of plumbing work to do it.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 22:20:52 06/22/16) Well, if it's consistently losing p/s oil and the engine oil is rising, I'd go after the pump seal... No worries about the bearings there. Don't be surprised if the pump is buggered tho. It's worth looking at the seal but not much more. If it's got bad bearing blocks in the pump I'd just replace it with an integral reservoir pump as it will be a good deal cheaper than what you have.... but it will require a bit of plumbing work to do it.

Rod

Well, i have to admit it has been losing PS fluid, but this seems like a huge amount...and in short order. Really have not run the tractor much since changing oil. Any thoughts on how to tell for sure if fuel or PS fluid in the oil? Short of chemical analysis!
PS works fine when fluid is up in reservoir....so might be ok.
Guess it is not too much $$ to put in new fuel lift pump as well as seal kit in PS pump....then HOPE!
 
So Rod....am I correct in thinking that I can replace fuel lift pump D8NN9350AB on this site (about $25) [u:4fafffdb47]and[/u:4fafffdb47] put in a PS pump seal kit DHPN3A674A (about $30)....change the oil and filter.... and be back in business (if PS bearings are not bad!)
This sure seems a LOT more attractive than splitting a tractor!
Thanks for the guidance.
 
If you say so. I haven't bought a lift pump from this site and the CNH ones I have bought are around 80 bucks. The p/s seal kit sounds about
right. I would take that apart before ordering a seal kit tho.... as I find most time the pump is likely to be buggered...
I would not bother with the lift pump unless I had conclusive evidence it was bad. Open the drains on the injection pump and change that oil
first. If it's not pure fuel in there I'd say the lift pump is fine... Usually they get the staggers if the lift pump is bad. Won't run with
less than a full tank of fuel, etc.

Rod
 
Sean, oil in pan 'seems' to have a hint of hydraulic odor as opposed to diesel....

Rod, tractor starts and runs fine. Moved it back into barn to tear it apart. I will drain oil and see if that helps me sort anything. From the level on the stick I will need TWO drain pans! HAHAHA
Not sure what you meant by open the drains on the injector pump. The front bleed screw?
Guess I was being wishful in thinking the PS pump might be OK since steering was OK until it would get hard when level down. I will tear pump apart and try to check it out.

I really appreciate the help.....you guys are great!
 

Simms inline inj pump as it's own oil sump that needs to be changed when you change the engine oil.
There's a small check plug in the side of the pump to check oil level, a drain plug in the bottom and a fill plug in the top of the pump. Many of these pumps have been destroyed because of a bad lift pump letting the oil leak out or from someone changing the lift pump and not refilling the inj pump with oil. It uses to same motor oil you use in the engine.

My money is on the power steering pump, If your adding ps fluid and don't see a leak it's going in the engine. The can holds nearly a quart so a couple of refills adds a lot of oil to the engine.
 
Wow....learn something new every day!
No where have I seen anything in the service manual on that....even in sections for removing lift pump, injector pump, or injectors.
Also have not been changing any oil other than engine oil. Will need to check out these plugs! Especially if I need to change lift pump.

I removed the PS pump this AM and disassembled.
Did not look bad inside.....other than the forward oil seal being hard as a rock. Doubt it was a good seal. No major scoring of PS bearing blocks.
Drained the engine oil.....the bad news (?) is the volume that came out looks to be 3-4 gal! Course as pointed out, a few refills of the reservoir adds up pretty fast at a qt/fill.
Guess I will bite for a PS seal kit and keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks again to all !!!
 
Send off an oil sample. They usually get the results to your email in a couple of days. That will tell if there is fuel in your oil
 
The plot thickens........
Got poking at the Simms injector pump to try to understand the 'has its own oil sump' concept. Spotted a 1/2" plug at the bottom and one about midway up just forward of the lift pump. Decided to open the midway one...presumably the check hole plug. Nothing came out. Then opened the lower (presumably drain) ......about a cupful of dirty fuel (?) came out. GROAN!!!
Looks like fuel system is the culprit....IF... this was supposed to contain oil rather than fuel.(?) And if the 'dirty fuel was not some light colored hydraulic fluid. This would not make sense since it appears the injector sump communicates with the crankcase.
There is a large 15/16" plug on the top surface that I suspect is the filler plug. However it appears that one has likely never been opened. So much for maintaining a clean oil level!
Amazes me that no mention of this is made in the service manual!!!!
Anyway, decided to remove the fuel lift pump. It is original 'Made in England Type P'.
Had the bright idea that I could turn it 180 deg , reattach the fuel lines, then use the priming lever to move the diaphragm while I watched the open 'backside' of the pump for leaking.
No leaks noted! SOOOOO.... now I am more confused.
Is there some other avenue for fuel to leak into the injector sump (and then the crankcase) ?
Assuming the excess level of crankcase oil IS due to fuel, are all the engine bearings ruined? That is a VERY depressing thought......Hey, for all I know at this point, it could be BOTH PS and fuel.
Anyway, open to any ideas....

BTW: Rusty.....send a sample where? Cost?
 

At lease it had a little something in there to keep the pump lubricated, some fuel can leak around the plungers on and old pump that has some wear in it. If the lift pump is oily around the weep hole or gasket I'd put a new one on, I'm not as worried about a little fuel in the pump as I am about where the oil went to. I've seen more than one faulty lift pump leak all of the oil out of the pumps sump.
My book says it only holds a little less than 1/2 quart of motor oil, get a lift pump back on it and fill the pump with fresh oil, then put a seal kit in the power steering pump and give it a try.
 
No, what you found is simply a pump that hasn't had it's oil changed. If the diaphram was bad the pump would be full to the gunnels and
pushing past the shaft seal into the engine. Just refil with 15W40 to the level plug and move on. Change it more frequently.... There will
always be some dilution in the cam box.... but it generally stays at or near it's nominal level.

I'd say if you found a hard shaft seal in the P/S pump, that is your problem. Don't over think it.

The probable reason for the service manual not detailing the injection pump oil is that it's well covered in the OP's manual.

Rod
 
Well that is encouraging! Have to admit, the more I ran down the rabbit hole, the worse it seemed. Was even trying to research rebuilding the injection pump! No simple task...
Finally decided it had in fact been starting and running well....so indeed, just rebuild the PS pump, maybe even throw on a new fuel lift pump, and see how it goes. Just check the crankcase oil level carefully and frequently....as well as the injector pump sump.
If I find lots of fuel contamination there....I might indeed have injector pump issues.
Definitely appreciate all the insight from folks. Sure is great hat you share knowledge and experience. THANKS!
 
(quoted from post at 16:43:02 06/23/16) .
.
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Amazes me that no mention of this is made in the service manual!!!!
.
.

Does the service manual tell you how to change the engine oil & filter? Changing the oil in the pump is considered a routine maintenance item, just like changing the engine oil & filter, so it is covered in the Operator's Manual (sometimes called the Owner's manual), not the Service manual.
 
We buy the oil sample kits from Holt/Cat in San Antonio. They cost around twelve dollars for the kit; that includes the oil analysis and postage to get the oil sample to the lab. The results are emailed to you. Some of the oil suppliers in the area offer oil sampling. The cost of the service is dependent on the brand and volume of oil you are buying. Sorry for the late reply. I've running hard trying to catch my tail
 
(quoted from post at 21:08:38 06/24/16) We buy the oil sample kits from Holt/Cat in San Antonio. They cost around twelve dollars for the kit; that includes the oil analysis and postage to get the oil sample to the lab. The results are emailed to you. Some of the oil suppliers in the area offer oil sampling. The cost of the service is dependent on the brand and volume of oil you are buying. Sorry for the late reply. I've running hard trying to catch my tail

Good to know Rusty, sounds like something good to have on the shelf
 
OK folks....time for a followup.....
Rebuilt the PS pump and also replaced the fuel lift pump. (both PS kit and lift pump were pretty cheap)
Looks like that has solved the oil level issue, the PS leak, and the excessive fuel in the lift pump sump.
So many thanks to all who helped point me in the right direction.

Unfortunately, it looks like the 5000 likes to live in the barn :?

Found the trans/hydr/rearend fluid to be a milkshake!!
Presumably from water intrusion while it lived in the weather.
Did the flush routine and will soon drain and replace again...($$$$)

Now noting front end issues...noted while have to change a front tube after puncturing on wild pear thorn. That has to be one of the most gawdawful trees!!!
Did I mention I was lucky????? :roll:
Anyway, need to repair tie rod ends as well as figure out excessive steering wheel play. Will start another thread on that.

Thanks again for all the help!
 
(quoted from post at 16:04:44 07/13/16) OK folks....time for a followup.....
Rebuilt the PS pump and also replaced the fuel lift pump. (both PS kit and lift pump were pretty cheap)
Looks like that has solved the oil level issue, the PS leak, and the excessive fuel in the lift pump sump.
So many thanks to all who helped point me in the right direction.

Unfortunately, it looks like the 5000 likes to live in the barn :?

Found the trans/hydr/rearend fluid to be a milkshake!!
Presumably from water intrusion while it lived in the weather.
Did the flush routine and will soon drain and replace again...($$$$)

Now noting front end issues...noted while have to change a front tube after puncturing on wild pear thorn. That has to be one of the most gawdawful trees!!!
Did I mention I was lucky????? :roll:
Anyway, need to repair tie rod ends as well as figure out excessive steering wheel play. Will start another thread on that.

Thanks again for all the help!

Don't go overthinking it again. My old forklift has never been out in the weather, but the crankcase oil gets pretty milky. It has to run for over 45 mins to drive the moisture out and it is not from a bad head gasket, or perforated cylinder wall or anything like that. It is due to CONDENSATION, and water which is a product of combustion. Your housings are vented which means that sometimes it will suck some moisture in with the air. Then when the housing cools off the moisture will condense on the inside of the housing. It is just like having a rain event inside of the housing.
 
Hmmmmm....thought moisture and bearings was a bad thing.
I know trans/hyd fluid will 'hold' a fair bit of water.....and indeed condensation will occur....but at what point does milkshake fluid become a problem??? Got impression from the various 'flush the trans' threads that it was an issue.
 

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