3600 won't crank without being pulled

kirkmc

New User
We recently painted our 3600 but didn't remove anything but dirt. Fuel lines, pump and filters stayed as is. After painting we cranked it and it cranked OK and ran for 30 minutes or so. When we pulled it into the lot to check the brakes, one of them grabbed and the engine died. It would not crank back. Checked diesel and it was OK, checked kill switch and it was OK, neutral switch was bypassed a long time ago so it was no an issue. We pulled it with another tractor and it cracked easily. Let it run and killed the engine. Would not crank with starter. Pulled it again and it cranked easily. It should be noted that the fuel pump is weak and we use starter fluid most time to crank it but that didn't help this time. I am going to have the pump rebuilt but could that be causing the problem with the starter not being able to crank it but pulling it off does? Anyone have a suggestion as to what else it could be?
 
Does not explain a sudden change, but my experience with those that pull start, but not with starter has been low compression.
 
Crank?? To me that means that the engine either spins over with the starter or it does not. So is what your saying is that when you try to start it the engine does not turn over at all or it just does not start???
If your saying it will not spin the engine over then check battery connections and maybe jump across the solenoid to see if it has gone bad
 
I wouldn't waste time on the fuel pump. They don't get weak. They either work or they don't work. Injectors are another matter. Those could
be dribbling or not firing correctly. That said..............
I would say your problem is probably related to bad connections or a bad starter because a good strong starter should easily start that
engine if it will start for a pull. So... first place I'd start is by making sure you have 2/0 cable with proper crimped or soldered ends. If
it's got those damn replaceable clamp ends... get rid of them. Then make sure you've got power coming to the control wire on the starter when
you turn the key. If you don't, trace it back and find the problem. If you do, and you have otherwise good connections and a known good
battery.... then you either have a bad starter motor or switch(solenoid). Dirty brushes and corroded commutators are common on those
starters... but a simple cleaning will generally suffice to get them working decent again.

Rod
 
What you describe sounds like severe injection pump hydraulic head/rotor wear. At low cranking speeds the head has too much internal leakage to start the engine. Pull starting spins the engine faster to help overcome some leakage, so the engine will start. Rotary injection pumps are more prone to this, but inline pumps barrels/plungers can show it too. Usually the first sign is the engine will not start when shut down hot, but after a cool down period it will start.
 
I have really good service with the new pumps available out there. Not much more than a rebuild. Do an internet search with this number D6NN9A543F. Some are as low as $575
 
When I said it wouldn't crank I was referring to it turning over sufficiently but not actually starting. The starter seems to be working fine (it's fairly new) and the battery is good. It just continues to spin without starting. Pulling it with another tractor starts it quickly.
 
Can you define how fast sufficient is?

Having to spin up fast to start would indicate possible compression issues to me.
 
(quoted from post at 08:32:00 06/08/16) When I said it wouldn't crank I was referring to it turning over sufficiently but not actually starting. The starter seems to be working fine (it's fairly new) and the battery is good. It just continues to spin without starting. Pulling it with another tractor starts it quickly.
irk, that was perfectly clear to those who carefully read all that you posted.
 
No, actually it wasn't clear... at all. Some of you seem to define 'crank' to mean 'start' and who the hell knows what word you actually use
in place of 'crank' to denote what a starter actually does. Thus the need to clarify what was meant.
When someone tells me that the engine will not crank but will start for a tow... that implies starter problems to me.
If it cranks over and fails to start, that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Rod
 
So, you think that he is so ignorant as to think that if starter motor will not turn the engine that applying starting fluid will fix the starter motor??
kirk said, "we use starter fluid most time to crank it but that didn't help this time."
Some people just want to force their terminology upon others & I will give that such is the case in Old's response than in yours, but if the shoes fits............
 
You're the one that brought out the ignorant.........

He also made mention of the neutral switch being disabled... which says to me he was checking the control circuit of the starter because it
wouldn't.... crank.
As far as ether use is concerned.... yeah, there's lots of those tractors out there with weak starters and bad connections. If you use some
ether they will fire at a slower cranking speed. It's very, very common. There's about 6 weeks in the peak of summer here where hard
starting tractors will start easily without ether and most of them suffer from a weak starting system, not any inherent engine or fuel
system problem...

As far as the terminology is concerned........ if you want to review any relevant service data for the past hundred years you'll find that
'crank' generally refers to the starter's job, not the engine's ability to run.
I usually don't get to asinine about it unless the meaning isn't all that clear or someone wants to get smart about it.

Rod
 
for the most part I agree, but also make the point when one reads the whole post, given the context of the words, it is generally clear as to the posters meaning as to whether the engine will or will not turn with the starter or the it will not run when turned by the starter, as was Kirk's situation. Have a nice day.
 
NO!

The poster is clearly using the same term to describe many different things. e.g. "After painting we cranked it and it cranked OK and ran for 30 minutes or so."
In this case OLD was exactly right in trying to get the poster to define what he was meaning by the word CRANK.
You, of all people, have seen how frustrating it is to try to help someone and then learn that they are using the wrong "terminology" which sent us all down the wrong rabbit hole.
I wish there was an article that listed the terms that we could all use and the definitions of those terms, with pictures.
IMHO
Keith Williams
BTW: CRANK would not mean START is any definition that I would know of.
 
Does it register 200 rpm on the tach when cranking it with the starter? That is usually the rule of thumb I go by with those things...

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 12:01:34 06/08/16) Does it register 200 rpm on the tach when cranking it with the starter? That is usually the rule of thumb I go by with those things...

Rod
hat would certainly clarify it.
 
I agree with Rod, Old and others who say
crank/cranking is a function of the starter
and not a result of internal combustion.
Kirk is a new user here and it won't hurt
him to learn the prevailing terminology for
these things.
 
(quoted from post at 11:17:22 06/08/16) NO!

The poster is clearly using the same term to describe many different things. e.g. "After painting we cranked it and it cranked OK and ran for 30 minutes or so."
In this case OLD was exactly right in trying to get the poster to define what he was meaning by the word CRANK.
You, of all people, have seen how frustrating it is to try to help someone and then learn that they are using the wrong "terminology" which sent us all down the wrong rabbit hole.
I wish there was an article that listed the terms that we could all use and the definitions of those terms, with pictures.
IMHO
Keith Williams
BTW: CRANK would not mean START is any definition that I would know of.
ep, that is a good argument Keith, IF Old assumed that Kirk thought that applying starting fluid would make the starter run! I am, by the way, all for gathering as much info as possible before answering a post. Internet communication (half duplex) leads to much mis-communication. Enough.
 
First, let me apologize to all those I confused and mislead with my terminology. Apparently it caused quite a stir and some to waste time offering an opinion based on wording not in keeping with the site. Right or wrong I speak Southern. Here in MS cranking is the present participle of the verb crank. The process of cranking will either be successful and the engine will crank or not. Depending on what part of the country you are in, when thirsty you might have a pop, soda or in the South, a coke which could be any type of soft drink. I wasn't aware of the firestorm I caused by my regional verbiage but really do hate the confusion.

To set the record straight, what I was trying to inquire about was the failure of the engine to start after we painted the tractor. I don't see an causal effect of the new paint job but after painting the engine started as normal with the help of a shot of starter fluid (ether) but died (stopped running)when a brake grabbed while the engine was running at low rpms. The starter was working fine and the battery was strong. The engine was cranking but wouldn't start. Pulling it off started the engine with no problem. This was repeated several times with identical results. My personal opinion is a weak fuel pump but I had hoped on getting other opinions to see if there was something I might be missing. We have 9 Ford or F/NH tractors on the farm from a 3000 to a TD5050 and do most of our own work except for deep engine overhauls. I enjoy reading the site and appreciate your patience.
 


CAV pumps like used on your 3600 have a small vane pump in the back of the inj pump and a check valve under the fuel inlet fitting. I've replaced the vanes in a couple of pumps that had poor starting problems when the engine is warm during hot summer days. If the check valve is sticking or bad the engine will not want to start anytime without help. the four small bolts in the back of the pump let's you remove the rear fuel inlet giving access to the vanes, when removing the fuel inlet fitting from the cover don't let the spring and valve fly out and become lost. Happened to me in the middle of a hay field once.

If the engine has major blow by and is using oil it's time for a rebuild, if not I'd replace the vanes and look at the check valve.

On mine if that doesn't fix it I sent the pump in for a rebuild.
 

Let me jump on here with Rod Old and UD that this is a frequent problem in helping people here. The other problem term is "turn over" when used in place of run. I go for crank as correct term for starter function and run is what the motor does once the starter has successfully done its job.
 

Its nothing to do with the south and more to do with being mechanical or not... Yes... lots of slang out there but serious mechanics will know the difference and use the words correctly. Just as up and down have different meanings, crank and fire do also...


cranking is function of the starter or an actual crank on the front of the engine.... running is a function of the engine with NO starter... Running and or firing is a function of the engine.... lots of engines will crank but not fire. Spark engines fire with spark plugs, and carburation. Diesel engine fire with compression and injection. These principles are pretty much understood world wide and in all languages.
 

I also have seen a problem with cav pumps especially with the aluminum heads.. very low pressure when cranking and thus difficulty making the needed pressure to open the injectors and thus fire the engine. Retarded pump timing also can hurt. Low compression can hurt.. restricted fuel delivery to pump can hurt. Severely restricted air filter....

All of which can be fixed by pulling the tractor, spinning it faster than that of cranking over with the starter, to overcome the above problems.
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top