134 In Frame Overhaul Newbie

Montana55

Member
I've got my 1955 640 engine down, it's a sleeved model. The tractor is an ugly workhorse that gets maybe 50 hours use a year. I don't want to carry the block to a machine shop.

I intend to replace the pistons and sleeves with standard and replace the rod and main bearings with the same size that are in it now (0.010). Crank looks good visually. Head will go to machine shop.

What are the pitfalls on these engines? I was hoping that Tisco sleeves and pistons can be made to work without involving a machine shop.

I don't have access to a sleeve puller. Are there any tricks besides welding beads on the inside? I have a flux core welder. The crank being in, kinda makes me nervous about going that route.

Do you guys send a good radiator out to a radiator shop just for the sake of preventive maintenance? Mine looks good and doesn't leak, but I don't want to end up with a Chinese one later.
 
If radiator is good and doesn't leak then
flush it out with the garden hose and run
it. As for welding, cover the crank with
wet rags and go to work, I weld all the
time on machines with precision surfaces
like hydraulic cylinder rods and cover them
like that and good to go. When the tractor
is that far tore down tho myself I would
split it and put in new crank seals and a
clutch disk, then won't have to worry about
either for decades to come
 
What does having a flux core welder have to do with it? Any kind of welder will run a bead up the sleeve. Just don't put your ground clamp on
the crank.
 
Any welder, with the exception of tig, will also deposit spatter on the nearby crank if not protected properly.
 
I would at least Mike the crank or you maybe doing this again in the near future. Just because a crank looks good does not mean it is in fact still in spec. As for welding the sleeve to remove them you can simply use foil to wrap around the crank to keep any splatter off
 
If it were me I would have a machine shop
make a sleeve puller. Just a steel slug with
a step in it and a hole in the middle for a
piece of threaded rod. Use it to remove the
old ones and pull the new ones back in.
Might cost $50, if that, to have made.
As for the journals, yeah I would like to
see you put a mic on them.
If no mic and you are a gambling man you
could spring for new bearing shells then
install them in the rods and check them with
plastigage.
This site sells rod bearings for about $15
so not a big gamble.
 
(quoted from post at 07:06:47 02/12/16) If it were me I would have a machine shop
make a sleeve puller. Just a steel slug with
a step in it and a hole in the middle for a
piece of threaded rod.
an that piece be positioned without removing the crank?
 


While you have it apart change the rear main seal. While changing the seal take the crank to the machine shop, it doesn't cost that much to get a crank done, and the shop will also provide you with the correct bearings for less than you can buy them your self. I made my own puller several engines back and I just make different pucks to pull the sleeves up through. Just use any hefty piece of scrap to break them loose, then switch to the close tolerance one to bring them the rest of the way up.
 
Showcrop,
While I agree with you generally, pulling
the crank means pulling the engine which
means a lot more work plus rigging, etc.
An inframe, with rear seals, can be done in
place.
Montana,
The sleeve puller would look like the piece
in the photo. I exaggerated the thickness
and the steps so it shows up better on my
blackboard.
A piece of 1/2" plate would be plenty heavy.
Yes you could use it with the crank in
place.
a214936.jpg
 
This may seem a little long winded and off-topic and may piz someone off (my apologies in advance), but I used to work on gasoline and diesel engines decades ago, for poor-boy outfits in Texas. I overhauled many engines using same size road and main bearings provided the engines did not knock before I tore them down. I never owned a micrometer and seldom used plastiguage.
I've done this on Scania, Mack, Deere, Perkins, International, Detroit, Cummins and others. The only comeback I ever had on these overhauls was on a neighbor's 302 ford which after another 40K miles developed a knock and flat spot on a rod journal. He admitted using the cheapest oil he could find at Kmart and changed oil about every 10K miles.
In line Cummins engines, at least back then, were designed to run a million miles before pulling the crank. Every 300K miles you would replace standard rod and main bearings, replace the pistons, rings and liners and send the heads out.
In my opinion, an engine that was not designed to be in-frame overhauled is a poorly designed engine anyway. Industrial engines are usually built with very generous rod and main bearing surface area for the amount of horsepower they have, with the exception of these newer compact diesels in skid steers and mini-excavators.
 
(quoted from post at 07:50:30 02/12/16) Showcrop,
While I agree with you generally, pulling
the crank means pulling the engine which
means a lot more work plus rigging, etc.
An inframe, with rear seals, can be done in
place.
Montana,
The sleeve puller would look like the piece
in the photo. I exaggerated the thickness
and the steps so it shows up better on my
blackboard.
A piece of 1/2" plate would be plenty heavy.
Yes you could use it with the crank in
hanks for the info!
 
I wouldn't say they are poorly designed.
We have an 06 Camry with 250K miles on it
and it still runs like a watch and burns no
oil.
As far as tractors go, Ford did away with
sleeves on those 134s just a few years after
your 55 was built.
In 1965 with the introduction of the 3
cylinder tractors you could get about double
the hours before the bores needed redone on
a gasser. By that time the crank needed
redone too. So an inframe with it's inherent
costs to get the same number if hours isn't
really better.
Also, part of the reason to go parent bore
(sleeveless) was cost of manufacturing.
Sell the tractor cheaper and worry about the
increased cost of a rebuild 25 years down
the road when it finally needed it.
Just some random thoughts...
 
Why risk all that work for saving minutes
checking the crank measurements? Who knows
how many times that engine has been rebuilt
in 60 years, or how many tractors it has
been in.
 
(quoted from post at 08:48:26 02/12/16) I wouldn't say they are poorly designed.
We have an 06 Camry with 250K miles on it
and it still runs like a watch and burns no
oil.
Good point there are some excellent throw away engines out there.
In 1965 with the introduction of the 3
cylinder tractors you could get about double
the hours before the bores needed redone on
a gasser.
What was the reason for the increased longevity? Were they diesels?
Also, part of the reason to go parent bore
(sleeveless) was cost of manufacturing.
Sell the tractor cheaper and worry about the
increased cost of a rebuild 25 years down
the road when it finally needed it.
Just some random thoughts...
y the time a Camry has 250,000 miles on it, the body, interior and accessories are about shot anyway so there is no reason to rebuild the engine to last another couple hundred miles, but history has shown that tractors can run 60+ years, so it makes sense to build them to be service-friendly.
 
(quoted from post at 11:30:54 02/12/16) Why risk all that work for saving minutes
checking the crank measurements? Who knows
how many times that engine has been rebuilt
in 60 years, or how many tractors it has
been in.
hat it boils down to is that I'm so old and decrepit that the use of this tractor is simply not worth enough to me to do that much iron-wrestling. I would sooner sell it as is.
 
I understand, but if that far into it I
just think it would be advisable to know it
would be ok by measuring the crank. I'm
curious for such limited use why not just
run it wore out, if it burns oil just add
some? Or is it already torn apart?
 
(quoted from post at 13:11:49 02/12/16) I understand, but if that far into it I
just think it would be advisable to know it
would be ok by measuring the crank. I'm
curious for such limited use why not just
run it wore out, if it burns oil just add
some? Or is it already torn apart?
air question. It's so worn out that it's gutless. I need the power. I bought it worn out, the tractor did not have a bowl on the bottom of the air cleaner. I've already got the head and pan off.
 

Modern View Sucks.

[i:654c4848f0]"Good point there are some excellent throw away engines out there" "By the time a Camry has 250,000 miles on it, the body, interior and accessories are about shot
anyway so there is no reason to rebuild the engine to last another couple hundred miles"[/i:654c4848f0]

You obviously haven't driven one. It's spent most of it's life here in the salty roads Twin Cities yet the he old car is just starting to show it's first spots of rust. It still cleans up
nicely though. The interior is near perfect, nothing broken, cracked or faded. Seats nice.
Everything works, - all the gew gaws - power seats, windows, locks, sunroof, remote start, keyless entry - I mean [i:654c4848f0]everything[/i:654c4848f0] works.
We will sell this soon but I would give you 2-1 that it will easily go another 150,000
I wish my Chevy with 150K had held up as well. Of course I work it hard too. But yes, ultimately they're a throwaway engine/car/pickup.

[i:654c4848f0]"What was the reason for the increased longevity? Were they diesels?[/i:654c4848f0]

Not sure what all they've done to increase longevity on the top end. Metallurgy was a part of it I'm sure.
Your sleeves were good for about 4K hours.
A 3000 gasser good for about 7K, 3000 diesel good for at least 10K+ hours before a rebore and sleeve.
Bottom end:
The cranks on the 3 cyl are huge. Probably has twice the bearing surface area of a 134/172 and 4 mains for 3 cyl instead of 3 mains for 4 cyl.

I think you're on a reasonable track tho. Pull in some new sleeves with new pistons and rings. Valves.
I would mic the rod journals because I can.
We never did discuss what your oil pressure was unless I missed that.
New rod bearings. -Plastigage is only $2.50 a stick. I would spend it just to know.
Put new rear seal in it while you have the pan off.
Get you a couple thousand more hours on an old beater pretty cheap.
Added benefit of doing it inframe is you don't have to buy any Brylcream for a while.
 
Added benefit of doing it inframe is you don't have to buy any Brylcream for a while.
OL! You should have seen me yesterday when I pulled a plug out of the 3 point with an implement in the air.

I've had 3 Toyota trucks I bought new. Didn't try to get that many miles out of them, maybe should have. I don't think there will be much resale on a car with that many miles.

The 3cyl fords sound like a diesel with a gas version rather than the other way around.

I'll get some plastiguage just for peace of mind....or torment of mind if I decide to put it together a little loose anyway. This is a keeper, not for resale, just don't want to put a lot of labor into it. Only need to get a thousand hours out of it until I die.
 
The 3cyl fords sound like a diesel with a gas version rather than the other way around.

You are correct. The earlier 4 cylinder engines were gassers that they designed some modifications for to make them diesels, while the 3 cylinders were designed as diesels, and they provided some modifications so they could also make a gasoline version.
 
(quoted from post at 11:30:54 02/12/16) Why risk all that work for saving minutes
checking the crank measurements? Who knows
how many times that engine has been rebuilt
in 60 years, or how many tractors it has
been in.

My uncle had an 860 that did an amazing amount of work. It was the main horse on his 80 milker dairy farm for 15 years. Along with everything else it did, in the fall they used it to pull their one row corn chopper. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, first gear full throttle, pulling that chopper. Some fifteen years ago, not long before he passed on, he told me that he had the engine rebuilt three times during those fifteen years, although some one else told me that to him a rebuild was rings, rod bearings, and a head gasket. I am sure that at least once, his mechanic told him that he needed new sleeves and pistons.
 
The 010" rod and main bearings on mine are stamped "91", so they aren't the original standard ones. The only kind of farming around here is hay and in recent decades hay farmers around here have been using higher HP tractors. I don't think it's had much use in the last 20 years.

I've been welding the sleeves with my flux core welder. It doesn't seem to be enough heat to shrink the sleeves much, I'm going to have to dig my antique gas powered stick welder out of the ice and drag it to the shop to weld the sleeves.

When I dropped the head off at the machine shop, the guy there told me a customer welded sleeves to remove them and managed to weld the sleeves to the block, which has me a little paranoid about using too much heat.
 
May need to weld a few beads up each sleeve
but it should work even with wire feeder
and less chance of burning thru!
 
Thanks. I ran out of flux core wire and used my stick welder. The sleeves are out. It still took a lot of beating to get them out.
 

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