Just the facts on hydraulic oil, please

I have a Jubilee. Went to the New Holland dealer and paid $62 for 5 gallons of NH134D oil. After I put the oil in the tractor, I went to TSC and noticed that 5 gallons of their best universal hydraulic oil was only $30. It was good for many makes and models of tractors and would replace NH134D oil. Just the facts, should I have pay twice the money? Are the oils the same or is one better?

Both meet the same spec. A lubricants engineer friend got into this a few years ago and ended up concluding that it met the specs of the tractor manufacturer in question. I use it with no fear. At one time M2C134 was cheaper than TSC. Obviously not now.

Some have said that you should use the NH134D if you have a Select-O-Speed transmission but since your Jubilee doesn't have a SOS the TSC or Wal*Mart UTF is all you need.

There's some oils that meet a spec barely and there's oil's that meet a spec by a long shot,(same thing about motor oil) so there is a difference but with out a oil analyses to see the additives in parts per million one just don't know.



i would say the NH oil is better but we just dont know.

I buy 303 tractor hyd oil for $19.95 at the local bulk station here in SE Ok. I use it in all my tractors. Seems to do just fine. Roy

Seen mobil 1 [motor car]advertising lately.. 5 litres $AUD 49.99... Gulf Western $22.Is it better by 100+% or are we getting ripped off, I fear so.That's a hefty mark up on a barrel.

If it meets the specs it meets the specs. The only things I ever used dealer oil in was a Case powershift in a tractor and a case skid loader that takes engine oil plus an additive in the hydraulic system. As to everything else, from Ford tractors to Case and John Deere dozers they get whatevers cheapest and meets spec. Currently thats a Hallmark brand from Marathon, which is 60 cents a pail cheaper than TSC at my jobber. Conoco is 2 bucks more and I have been tempted but 2 bucks times a pallet is still some real money. Been using the cheaper fluids since 1984 and have replaced exactly one hydraulic pump in that time. It was within a year of when I bought the tractor, well used.

just remember the tractor can t read so it don t know what brand you use. General

Many brands/prices out there. As long as lubricant meets/exceeds specs the choice is up to you. I've used NAPA and NH UTFs (NAPA about $20 less than NH) and both have worked well in my Jubilee. Figure the NH purchase helped repay the dealer for his help with questions and ordering other small parts/supplies. Tim

(quoted from post at 19:05:01 12/02/09)

Both meet the same spec..

Click to expand...

No, they don't. The "generic" oil is RECOMMENDED" for use where ...

They are careful to NOT say that it meets the same specifications as ...


A small point, but one to be aware of. (I still use the generic by the way)

(quoted from post at 15:54:16 12/03/09)

(quoted from post at 19:05:01 12/02/09)

Both meet the same spec..

Click to expand...

No, they don't. The "generic" oil is RECOMMENDED" for use where ...

They are careful to NOT say that it meets the same specifications as ...


A small point, but one to be aware of. (I still use the generic by the way)

Click to expand...

The generic that I buy says "Meets the following manufacturers specifications:" and proceeds to list a number of different brands and the individual specifications from those brands that it claims to meet.

first off.. Ford does not make oil, it buys it from the cheapest bidder to its specifications. The oil originally for selectospeeds in NOT the oil used today as the oil used today has more improvements to handle the higher heat stress of higher pressures and resist shearing and cavitation better.

So.. you can pay $60 bucks or $30 bucks.. your call.

Remember that if the oil you buy were not to meet ford specs that company/dealer/store can be sued..

case, ford, jd, all have about the same problems.. hyrotrans oil cannot break down under pumping, higher pressures, BUT,, cannot have too many anti friction additives or the clutches and wet brakes will not work.. so your buying a good oil with about half of the additives in it. If you add the moly and zinc to it, the brakes and clutches would not work. The oil has a base additive to help it not form acids in the presence of moisture and has oring conditioners added as well. Its not much of a secret in the hydraulic business. Its not a ford thing, its a requirement for the whole industry.

your tractor, your money, your call..

I buy any of the generic tractor rated hydraulic fluids myself. I would rather see you buy a cheaper fluid and change more often than buy a expensive fluid and never change. changes depend on usage time, dirt and moisture contamination. That can mean evey year or every 10 years depending on how you drive it, and if the tractor is parked inside or outside.

I will tell you dont do whats popular, do whats right.

After pressure washing my tractor and painting it, I replaced the tranny, hydr, and rear end with NH134D as recommended by the dealer. I will say that my hydraulics is acting better before. The grader blade has been in the up position for 3 days..go figure. In the past the hydraulics would have blead down and it would have been on the floor. Perhaps there is something in the more expensive oil that has cleaned up my hydraulics. I will be using NH134D for some time. I bought 10 gallons of it.

Since I use up to 3 pails of fluid for a chang eon my 7610s or 5000 I have been using the walmart utf oil for years now.. no way to afford it otherwise when changing the hydro oil in my small fleet of tractors..

so far none of them have caught fire and blown up...

good clean oil that meets the 134d spec and yer good.. just about any utf oil you can buy today is better han anything they had in the 50's

soundguy

(quoted from post at 21:12:42 12/02/09) Some have said that you should use the NH134D if you have a Select-O-Speed transmission but since your Jubilee doesn't have a SOS the TSC or Wal*Mart UTF is all you need.

Click to expand...

I don't even say that for the SOS. If it meets or exceeds the old M-2C41 spec (now covered by 134D), I say use it.

In fact the oil that I use, Archer Unifluid, is above and beyond anything Ford or NH or CNH or anybody else puts out in proven field and lab tests.

One oil co site says use only 80 90 gear oil in old tractors.If you read your owners manual it says use an 80 90 oil.Google the original oil numbers.I had plenty of weak lift troubles with 134 in my 640 tractor.My cord wood saw weighs 275 lb and there were times when the tractor could not lift the saw in hot weather.If you have a worn pump 134 is useless.I drained the 134 from the hydraulic system and put a 90 GL1 oil in its place.I used the saw during some hot days in September,the tractor lifts the saw at idle.I have gone back to the oil specifide by the Ford Motor Co in 1954.I saw a post where a fellow who worked for a Ford tractor dealer said that some customers who changed to 134 could not get their tractors to lift.

If 134 makes you feel good, then by all means us it. as I said.. draining your fluid of all the old contaminated fluid with water and god knows what else... in it.. and replacing it with clean new fluid with fresh additives in it..

good tractor hydraulic fluid will help fight moisture problem and have oring conditioners in it. clean fluid will help flush out contaminates that may cause your valves to stick open or not seat properly. If you like 134d, then try to find who they buy if from and save yourself 30 bucks a container.

most tractor manufactors are not in the refininery business. they do buy it, have it labeled, and then shipped to the main warehouse, then reship it world wide. so your 134 could have come as far away as italy. More likely it came from a bulk refinery on the gulf coast or a finishing refinery somewhere else. The same plant that produced 13 different labels for 13 different companys, same fluid specs with same additives. typically it will have more additives so that it meets every tractor spec so a generic is can be slightly better than a custom run for one model only.

Although this post addresses the N series tractors, I don't see any reason it would not apply to the Jubliee series.

Posted by llamas on March 29, 2000 at 16:26:03 from (216.90.50.65):

In spite of the strong words being thrown about by the self-mis-educated below, what follows is the straight skinny on tranmission/hydraulic fluid.

The transmission fluid in an “N”:-series tractor lubricates the transmission, differential, rear wheel bearings, PTO and hydraulic pump drive, and it also cats as the working fluid for the hydraulic lift. In 9N/2N models, it also lubricates the steering sector and shaft system.

The owner’s manual for the 9N and 2N models specified the use of only two fluids. They were STRAIGHT MINERAL OIL SAE 90 (above freezing) and STRAIGHT MINERAL OIL SAE 80 (below freezing). Caps in original. By the time 1950 rolled around, and the 8N was the only Ford tractor, oil technology had advanced a bit, and Ford specified the use of “Mild EP GEAR OIL conforming to Ford specs M4864A (SAE 80) (below freezing) or B (SAE 90) (above freezing)” . Caps in original.

Today, if asked, Ford-New Holland will specify the use of a combined hydraulic/transmission fluid which conforms to their specification M2C134D in all “N” series models.

The original specification for STRAIGHT MINERAL OIL would conform to the present-day API gear oil designation of GL1. Although less normal today, this can still be had – it is still used in non-synchromesh truck transmissions, for example.

Ford M4864 “mild EP GEAR OIL” would conform to the present-day API gear oil designation of GL3. It contains some Extreme Pressure additives (sulphur and phosphorus compounds) which make it a better lubricant for transmissions and for bevel-gear final drives where there is high-pressure sliding contact. It should be noted that the EP designation refers to contact pressure between moving parts – it has nothing to do with hydraulic pressure.

Combined hydraulic/transmission fluid is a compromise product. It contains many additives to make it work reasonably well as a hydraulic power transmission fluid, as a hydrostatic power transmission fluid and as a gear lubricant. It is not typically specified by SAE viscosity number (or “weight”) although it may be.

The Ford M2C134D fluid, for example, is not specified by SAE “weight” although its viscosity is defined by maximum numbers on various scales at various temperatures. Its viscosity on the SAE scale, based on those numbers, would be between 40 and 50.

True hydraulic fluids – fluids intended only for hydraulic and/or hydrostatic power transmission - are also typically not specified by SAE viscosity number. The ATF familiar to every driver with an automatic transmission, for example, carries no SAE viscosity number – instead, it is specified by a whole range of performance requirements, of which its viscosity is just one part. True hydraulic or hydrostatic fluids are typically of the order of 10 to 20 on the SAE viscosity scale. So there is no such thing as "SAE 80 Mild EP hydraulic fluid", for example.

If we go shopping at TSC, for example, we will find two types of fluid for our “N”-series transmission/hydraulic application on sale. One is marked “Ford Tractor Transmission Fluid – High quality oil for use in older Ford tractors”. This is the original stuff, almost. It has an SAE viscosity number of 80W90. It is not “straight mineral oil”. The sniff test tells us that it has sulphur additives, so it is at least an API GL3 gear oil. Most likely, it is an API GL5 gear oil, because that’s the universal automobile standard for gear oil these days. It is exactly the same type of oil that would be used in a conventional automobile or truck differential, although it may not be up to the latest standard.

Our other choice is “Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluid”. This is a pig of a different grunt. It is a 10W20 oil (much thinner, and multigrade) which is “recommended” for use in place of the Ford M2C134D, as well as a whole list of other manufacturers specifications. Note that it does NOT say “Meets Ford M2C134D specification” – it can’t do that, just based on the stated viscosity alone. This oil does have an additive package which is intended to make it work reasonably well as both a gear lubricant and a hydraulic fluid.

We may also see “Hydraulic fluid” on sale. This is something else again. It is not intended for use in transmissions or final drive applications, and indeed it says so in big letters on the jug. This is for hydraulic systems ONLY. As it happens, it is marked with an “equivalent” SAE viscosity number of 20. It should be noted that there are no such designations as “EP” or “mild EP” for hydraulic fluid, and indeed, API and SAE don’t really get into specifying hydraulic fluids at all – some of their tests and standards are sometimes used for hydraulic fluid, but the full specifications are typically originated by the makers of hydraulic equipment. To use this in an N transmission would be quick and sure death for the transmission and differential - it simply lacks both the viscosity and the additives required to do that work. The hydraulics would probably work quite well using this, though.

TSC is not the only game in town, but broadly the same choices are available at your local ag supply store. The “universal” transmission/hydraulic fluid is perhaps the least best choice. It attempts to meet fifty different manufacturers specifications in one fluid. Some of those specifications are mutually exclusive – as will be seen in the example of viscosity noted above. It would, however, be a good hydraulic fluid for a hydraulic lift system in good working order. The originally-specified 80 or 90 weight gear oil is probably a better transmission and final-drive lubricant – the downside is that it is not so good as a hydraulic fluid, especially in cold weather. For those reasons, a combination transmission/hydraulic fluid which does conform to the Ford M2C134D spec is probably a better compromise between hydraulic system performance and gear lubrication.

That's the straight dope. Sorry it's so long, but it's a multi-facted subject, and obviously it's hard for some to understand. Additions and comparisons with other products available in other parts of the country, from those who know what they're talking about, are welcomed.

llater,
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Re: Gear Oil- Ripped off from llmas

Don't mean to be a party pooper, but sir, what is the source of your information? I say this as I noticed some viewers are filing your report as gospel and that may be fine, but it helps to know the origin. Fact or WAG.

I say this because I read a lot of conflicting info on here (including the shady responses I supply sometimes...unintentionally).

Somewhere in all of that is the truth, and the truth for an 8n in New York with a fresh overhaul, I'll bet, is different than the truth for a worn out 9n in Florida.

Thanks,

txblu
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Re: Re: Gear Oil- Ripped off from llmas in reply to txblu, 05-07-2004 05:58:41

Tex.........llamas is a well respected "founding contributor" to this great N-Board. (check archives iff'n you don't believe me) His N-Tranny oil information is spot on and is often times suggested reading to neubies for eduication and elucidation. llamas is nom-de-plume for Johan Bakeer (sp?) a columist for Successful Farming and other publications..........respectfully, Dell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Re: Re: Re: Gear Oil- Ripped off from llmas in reply to Dell (WA), 05-07-2004 07:34:12

Well sir, I am glad you were the one responding as you were the one that I was referring to when I said that some were saving and filing these recommendations.
Appreciate your candid answer.
Best,
Mark
Guess I'll clip and file too.
Course I don't "parley vou franswa" so I don't know what da plume means. Thought it was the TV movie series actor that has long hair and a fast motorcycle (good guy though). Grin

Noah W
Thank you for giving me JUST THE FACTS on hydraulic oil. I don't feel so bad about spending $62 for 5 gallons.
George

Noah W
Thank you for giving me JUST THE FACTS on hydraulic oil. I don't feel so bad about spending $62 for 5 gallons.
George

You got skinned,you can buy hyd fluid for 1/2 that price.

I have a question then guys...

So if a guy wants a thicker oil so to be sure hyd's works best in the heat what could one use for a 4000 series TLB FORD besides 134D???

I can see clearly now.... why Ford, for a LONG time has simply recomended the use of 134D in every compartment (except crankcase) of all tractors since the Jubilee.
The level of misinformation, wrong specs, bad/stupid ideas and the general spookery involved with oil brands creates SO MUCH confusion that it's simpler and safer to recomend the use of ONE fluid.
134D has been REQUIRED for the hydraulics and transmission fo ALL Ford's built after 1965. For the older models it won't amount to a pinch of crap whether you use the older oil specs or 134D if the thing is in proper working order.

If you have a 4000 TLB with wet brakes you REQUIRE 134D. Otherwise you'll soon be buying brakes and cleaning metal filings from the insides of the tractor.

Rod

In the trans/rear end right(have it in there now) with the breaks im talking Rod the hydraulics seprate system then trans and rear, confusing for sure...

After draining over 12 gallons of water and oil out of my newly purchased Jubilee. I thought I should at least get to know the NH dealer. I went there and paid my 64 bucks for 134, I read the info on the bucket. It was 134G not 134D. They did not have 134D. What is the situation with 134G and not 134D. Where does that leave me? How about the 12 gallons of water/oil !!?? A leak would only have gotten in to trans through a bad boot right?

134G or Ambra is just the next generation. I don't think there's really much different about it other than NH/FLViscosity can't or won't put the same number on it.
134D in itself was the fourth revision of the 134 spec.
I'd not worry about using 134G any more than 134D beyond it's price.
TDH from Walmart will work just as well.

The water could just as easily, and perhaps more likely be the result of condensation. Either use it more and get it hot so it evaporates the water out or change the oil when you notice it getting milky.

Rod

The shifter boot is most likely your problem. Have fun putting it on. The one you get from NH and Yesterday's tractor seems to be too small at the bottom. Rural King has a shifter boot that is bigger. The NH guy said to turn the boot inside out and work it over the trany cover...good Luck! I've decided to pay more for my oil and get what the dealer recommends..they need make money and stay in business. After all the discussion over hydraulic oils can anyone explain to me why Terramite T5C, which is a sup-compact loader backhoe, has a warning label NOT to use hydraulic oil in its hydraulic system? They want me to use only motor oil 10W30 or 10W40. Terramite says that hydraulic oil will damage my hydraulics. This should generate a lot of buzz.

(quoted from post at 08:19:32 12/03/09)

(quoted from post at 15:54:16 12/03/09)

(quoted from post at 19:05:01 12/02/09)

Both meet the same spec..

Click to expand...

No, they don't. The "generic" oil is RECOMMENDED" for use where ...

They are careful to NOT say that it meets the same specifications as ...


A small point, but one to be aware of. (I still use the generic by the way)

Click to expand...

The generic that I buy says "Meets the following manufacturers specifications:" and proceeds to list a number of different brands and the individual specifications from those brands that it claims to meet.

Click to expand...

I don't know what you are buying. But, the stuff I buy says

RECOMMENDED for use where ... is specified.

MYSTIK® JT-5® UNIVERSAL TRANS-HYDRAULIC FLUID
RECOMMENDED BY CITGO TO REPLACE

http://www.citgo.com/Products/LubesOils/Mystik/MystikTransmissionPowerFluids.jsp

Ahhhhh . . . High school French tells me nom de plume translates to ' pen name' the fictitious name used by writers who wish to hide their
identity. Comes from nom (name) de (of) plume (quill feather) from the time people used hollow quill feathers that held ink & were used to write
as we did with fountain pens before ball point pens. Languages are fun, they tell stories & make us smile!

I don't care about this hog gibberish! But why on earth would one resurrect a thread that's over six years old for this?????

(quoted from post at 18:56:36 01/16/16)
I don't care about this hog gibberish! But why on earth would one resurrect a thread that's over six years old for this?????

Click to expand...

Quit being a phallic symbol.
YT is supposed to be an information and fun site...

Noah W

(quoted from post at 16:55:21 12/10/16)

(quoted from post at 18:56:36 01/16/16)
I don't care about this hog gibberish! But why on earth would one resurrect a thread that's over six years old for this?????

Click to expand...

Quit being a phallic symbol.
YT is supposed to be an information and fun site...

Noah W

Click to expand...

Wow! And it took you eleven months to come up with this????

(quoted from post at 08:21:04 12/05/09) The shifter boot is most likely your problem. Have fun putting it on. The one you get from NH and Yesterday's tractor seems to be too small at the bottom. Rural King has a shifter boot that is bigger. The NH guy said to turn the boot inside out and work it over the trany cover...good Luck! I've decided to pay more for my oil and get what the dealer recommends..they need make money and stay in business. After all the discussion over hydraulic oils can anyone explain to me why Terramite T5C, which is a sup-compact loader backhoe, has a warning label NOT to use hydraulic oil in its hydraulic system? They want me to use only motor oil 10W30 or 10W40. Terramite says that hydraulic oil will damage my hydraulics. This should generate a lot of buzz.

Click to expand...

Lots of bobcats and other equipment is now recommending HEAVY DUTY motor oil...BECAUSE of no wet clutches... and due to the anti wear properties making the pumps last longer under high heat.

If you have wet brakes, pto clutches, dual power clutches,, you can NOT use fluids with [b:aefa17127b]friction modifiers[/b:aefa17127b].. .The clutches will slip and not work.[u:aefa17127b][i:aefa17127b][/i:aefa17127b][/u:aefa17127b]