1965 Frod 4400 Info

Hello, I have a 1965 Ford 4400 Gas 3cyl with loader, three point and pto.

From what i can see the model / year.

5M15C ( 1965, December, 15th, Afternoon shift)
44022C ( 4000 series, Utility, Gas, Pto Trans 540 and 8 Speed)
C128506 (serial number, also 6B22 after that?)

What I'm trying to figure out is I don't believe it is an 8 speed and the PTO has a separate control on the left side that I can raise/lower to engage the PTO. Is it common to change the PTO from trans 540 to Independent? Im assuming someone has in the past, not sure?

I have HI / LOW range shifter and the transmission shifter. It seems like when pulling the transmission shifter back towards me I can only get reverse and no forward gears. Is it possible its a four speed (2 low / 2 High) ? I can't seem to find a shift pattern.

Any advice is appreciated, thank you.[/img]
29941.jpg
29942.jpg
 
You should have 1 reverse and 4 forward gears in each range.
Your pto handle is that of a tractor with twin sticks and live or transmission pto. Independent pto handle is quite different than that.
 

Thank you, trying to learn as I go. When I was looking up model number i though it showed that mine was "transmission PTO". i though that meant it would turn all the time. The PTO on mine is off unless I push the lever down then it begins to turn.

On the shift pattern Im still not sure. It's like I have two reverse gears when pulling back ( back left and back right) . When shifting forward it seems like there are only two also (forward left and forward right) When I am in HIGH range if I go forward left it will almost stall the tractor so Im assuming that is the highest gear? Usually I have it in LOW range and use "forward left", if I use the forward right it is extremely slow (lowest gear).

Thank you again!
 



1 2 4
-----
3 r

This should be the shift pattern for a 8 speed transmission as your model number shows. 1 and 3 are too the left side, forward and back on the lever, 2 and reverse are in the middle, and to the right and up should be 4th. Same thing in high range However someone could have changed out something. Did the model number come off of the transmission on the flat spot facing up, just to the rear of the starter??
 
That definitely looks like the handle for a trans driven PTO. The one for independent PTO would be farther back and the shaft is thinner and the curve is nearer the end of the shaft with the ball on it. Can you engage the PTO handle while the engine is running and the clutch is out without it grinding? If so, then that would be independent PTO. If you have to push the clutch in while the engine is running to engage the PTO without it grinding, then it is a trans driven PTO.

The main shifter should have an "H" pattern, like a 4 speed manual transmission in a car. Neutral is halfway between the forward and rearward position of the shifter and it should move left and right when in neutral. In the left most position in neutral, forward is first and rearward is third. From the middle position in neutral forward is second and rearward is reverse, and in the right most neutral position, forward is fourth and there is no rearward position. The smaller shifter is the two ranges, with low in the forward position and high in the rearward position, and a neutral in the middle.

If your main shifter does not move left and right when it is in neutral, then there is something wrong.
 
Thank you.

Yeah, all of the number came from the flat spot behind the starter. Im not sure, I can't get any forward gears when shifting back. It goes into gear ok and you can feel it coming out when shifting but it seem like I
only have reverse (left / right) when shifting back. Are there any transmission options that would look like that shift pattern?

Low Range.

1 2

R1 R2
 
(quoted from post at 18:41:18 11/11/15) Thank you.

Yeah, all of the number came from the flat spot behind the starter. Im not sure, I can't get any forward gears when shifting back. It goes into gear ok and you can feel it coming out when shifting but it seem like I
only have reverse (left / right) when shifting back. Are there any transmission options that would look like that shift pattern?

Low Range.

1 2

R1 R2

No, it sounds like something is broken or out of place inside the transmission so that the left-right movement of the shifter is not actually moving things inside correctly.
 
With the engine running, transmission in neutral and not depressing the clutch pedal it will engage ok w/ out grinding.

With it engaged if I press the clutch pedal down the PTO shaft will slowly stop turning.

Does this mean it is an " indepnant PTO"

Thank you.

Thats what had me confused w/ the model numbers. Model number guide I found had listing for multiple PTO options (transmission PTO, 545, live etc...)

With the transmission maybe something is not correct w/ it. No matter what I do I have two gears when moving the shifter forward and two when moving back. When moving back I only have reverse, but you tell a
difference like on is R1 and other is R2. not sure....

Thanks for all the info.
 

Do you know if I will be able to lift the top cover off to take a look at the shift forks / rails or will there be detents/springs that will fall out of place by doing so?
 
I'd say you have a 6x4 manual reversing transmission regardless of what the numbers say. Also, you very clearly have a sliding collar PTO instead of the independent PTO you would find behind an 8 speed..

Rod
 

Yes, it's like there is not further movement to go to the right. I found a link with info showing a "g" code for a 4x4 manual reversing trans?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-owning-operating/197157-ford-4400-tranny.html[/url]
 
(reply to post at 18:59:41 11/11/15)With the engine running, transmission in neutral and not depressing the clutch pedal it will engage ok w/ out grinding.

With it engaged if I press the clutch pedal down the PTO shaft will slowly stop turning.

Does this mean it is an " indepnant PTO"

Sorry, I should have said "with the engine running, the clutch out and an implement connected to the PTO".

Since it stops when you push in the clutch it is not independent PTO. Independent means that it is completely independent of the transmission and clutch pedal, and so it would continue to turn when the clutch is pushed in.

Transmission driven PTO (also called non-live) is driven off of a counter shaft inside the transmission and is only powered when the clutch pedal is out.

Live PTO means that it would have a two stage clutch and the PTO is powered when the clutch pedal is half way up AND all of the way up, and the transmission is only driven when the clutch pedal is all of the way up.
 
The code in the model number indicates an 8 speed, and that number is stamped into the transmission bell housing, so I didn't think about the manual reverser transmissions. A 6x4 manual reverser would have the shift pattern that sotxbill posted, and the earlier 4x4 manual reverse would be similar, but without the third forward speed, only 1, 2, R1 & R2.
 
I've never heard of the aforementioned 4x4 manual reversing transmission. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I'm a good deal less ignorant of these things than most and I've never heard of it. There was a very conventional 4x4 power reverser offered throughout the series run tho.

One other thing I did discover from some ciphering this morning, in the parts book... the 8 speed and the 6x4 manual reverser share a common transmission case... so I would pose the theory to you that perhaps your tractor had a damaged case at one point in time and the owner went out and got a used case from an 8 speed and installed the 6x4 guts in it.... or the tractor was originally an 8 speed anyway and someone installed the 6x4 gear set into it. Anything is possible....

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 10:37:48 11/12/15) I've never heard of the aforementioned 4x4 manual reversing transmission. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I'm a good deal less ignorant of these things than most and I've never heard of it. There was a very conventional 4x4 power reverser offered throughout the series run tho.

Rod - If you look at the parts diagram for the manual reversing transmission for the '65-'74 tractors, it is listed without saying how many speeds it has, and the ones for the later utility and industrial models that were made starting in 1975 (335, 420, 515, 535, etc.) all specifically say that it is a 6x4 Manual Reversing Trans.

Also, if you look at the individual parts descriptions for the gears themselves, it shows a date break of 4/1/68, which is the same date that they switched the sheet metal from the earlier to the later design, and change the first character of the model designators from a numeral to a letter. And there is no mention of 5th gear prior to the 4/1/68 date.

If you look at the parts diagram for the case, shift lever & related parts for the manual reverser, you'll see that they changed the shift fork labeled as #18 in the diagram on 4/1/68 as well. Plus several other parts in that diagram changed on 4/1/68.

I have seen posts from a few people that had the manual reverser on a tractor made prior to 4/1/68 and they have all been 4x4 rather than 6x4 and had the "G" transmission code at the end of the model number rather than the "K" transmission code.
 

Thanks Sean in PA. I will try to get a clear image of the model number to show. I'm thinking the "c" could be a "g" (44022G). I have tried over and over and it only has two forward and two reverse. Other than pulling the top cover/shift cover I'm at a loss. If I pull the top cover are there any detents / springs that could fall out?

Low range

1 | 2
-----
R1 | R2
 
Ahhh... so it is 44022G. Definitely a 4x4 manual reverser then, and your description of how it shifts is indeed "working as designed".

Also, I'm thinking that the 5M15C might be the code for when the transmission was assembled, which would be December 15, 1965, and the 6B22 might be the assembly date of the tractor itself, which would be February 22, 1966. I've seen a few early ones that have had both the trans and tractor assembly date codes on the right side, but they switched the trans assembly code to the similar flat spot on the left side at some point fairly early on.
 
The reason I think the tractor was made in 1966 is that the serial number, C128506, is an early 1966 serial number.
 

Thank you Sean in PA !!! I feel better knowing I'm not crazy about the shift pattern. Hopefully I can find a shift pattern decal.
 

Can you recommend a book or website where I can check serial numbers to see the date ranges or more info ?

Thanks again.
 
Click on the Yesterday's Tractors logo on the to[p left cornier of this web page and then click on "Serial Numbers" in the Info & research section along the left side, Then click on Ford in the list of manufacturers, and then click on "2000 - 3 Cyl - 9000".
 

Thank you for all the help. I'm going to pick up an 8n tonight for a winter project so im sure I'll be asking everyone for more advice. Have a good weekend!
 

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