Why does my 3400 get stuck where the 9n can go?

gears

Member
Arrgh, so I just got done pulling the 3400 out of the bog where I've been digging with a pond scoop on my 9n.

The 3400 is gas, tires are decent tread but unloaded (just like the 9N). I thought that having the box scraper on the back would provide enough weight to keep traction. Turns out that's not the case (sorry UD, didn't think to take a pic at the time).

Will loaded rears help with this? Or is it just the weight of the 3400 is so much that it will always get stuck in deep mud (to be fair, it was the lip at the embankment at the edge of the bog that I couldn't get up). Diff lock was engaged, tried crawling in 1st, got frustrated and tried 3rd but the tires were boogered with mud/clay. Didn't want to switch to high range to try and throw the gook off.
 
well.. lets look at the issue.

If the ground simply does not have enough density, and that low density muck is a deep enough layer so that tires can't get purchase before frame meets ground, then a heavy tractor is gonna high center where a light tractor may be able to walk on the surface.

In a case where you have, say.. a foot of muck or less, and your tires can actually hitbottom to find good traction without the frame or axle rubbing.. then yeah.. ballast helps.
 

Are you just spinning on top, or you sinking to the belly?

If tires are too wide for the weight, you will spin more in more on top... If tires are too narrow for the weight you will sink down more towards the bottom.

So the 3400 having more weight will always do worse everything else equal.

So.. depends on the mud..

if its just muddy on top and has a hard bottom a couple of inches down, narrow tires will do better. And more weight on narrow tires will do better than less weight on narrow tires, again assuming tires can find the bottom.

If has no bottom to it, then wider tires will keep you on top longer but will spin and not necessarily go forward due to resistance on front wheels. Lighter weight will also keep you on top better. Here is where a 4wd will give you more forward pull and might make a difference. Locking rearend will also double your pull.

Then there are self cleaning cleats, and other things that might help.

Also watery mud vrs sticky glue type mud, how much clay, how much sand also make a huge difference. clay mud will stick to wheels quickly and fill up the cleats making them virtually slick. It will also resist the front tires from moving forwards.. watery mud will not cling to tires as much but allows the tractor to sink more.

Eskimos have 13 words for snow types .. You need lots of words for mud types.

Factor in weight, tire size, and mud types and you will have your answer.
 
Thanks guys, sometimes I just need to hear that I'm not on the wrong track.

Thick clay mud with no real bottom, ridge at edge the front wheels won't ride over.... Not high centered, just can't get enough traction to move through the goo.

I've got a set of tiptoe steel diggers from the N, I might try putting them on.

I picked up a set of clamp-on duals for the spongy side of the property, I don't think they're the solution for this swamp though.

I imagine when the FEL gets put on there it'll be even worse.
 
Good chance the 3400 is just so heavy as is that it sinks in to deep and the N is so light it stays on top
 
Will loading the rears shift the balance significantly or just make the whole thing heavier and therefore sink more/faster?
 
In soft stuff plus with a loader you need as big a foot print as you can have and yes maybe fluid will help but it can also hurt hard to stay with out doing it. I have an 841 with loader with fluid in the rear tires. I use truck tires for front tires. My dad got dual's for it because he would get stuck in the creek due to the gravel but me I had no problem with getting stuck so it can also be an operator type of problem
 
Wheel tractors are not best suited for every
task. For that one you might be better off
renting a hoe or something with tracks
Or use the N if that was staying on top and
doing the job.
 
I learned years ago tracks and mud do not mix well and once you spin a track your in trouble fast. Had a TD-6 IH dozier down to the point the tracks where level with the mud and talk about hard to get out
 
The soil/ground conditions and the sheer weight of the tractor relative to flotation, is what will dictate performance, or you getting it stuck. That in simple terms is a given.

You have to learn the limitations of the tractor in the conditions you have, and it sounds as if what you were operating in, was plainly not suitable for a wheeled tractor, well at least the 3400, being substantially heavier.

If the ground is soft and or it pumps because of that, you may have one or 2 passes before it fails and you sink. The front narrow ag tires will slice open soft ground ahead of the rears and the rears will follow that path right in to sink instead of float. This makes it real easy to get stuck with that kind of arrangement, the wider flotation tires will perform better, but with limitations just the same as wet ground is wet ground, too much moisture, not even an LGP crawler with 36" track pads will operate on it. At that point you get into specialized equipment, matting or whatever it takes. Sometimes you need to be able to reach in, say with an excavator, from dry or stable ground to get the work done on a pond, these are ok for some earthwork, but digging ponds with a slip scoop or rear blade is a lot of repetitive work that will soon trash any kind of wet area.

I have ground like was mentioned below, hard under a foot or so of muck. Ballasted tires may help there, but I've never been able to really compare the 2, I have had one tire not loaded, gotten stuck, with that side up on hard ground along something like you described but parallel to it, not crossing it.

I suppose having a lot of experience has been helpful, personally I operated heavy equipment for 5 years full time and we worked some wet sites that were miserable, you kind of get the feel for it, making drainage and all that is involve, less experience, you just get stuck more often, but you do learn LOL !

Even then I still buried my 850 last year. One other thing that can be a problem, is if your steering is not tight or has enough play for the front wheels to make drag or resistance like mine did. I have been through this area for years, sometimes this corner is wet, most years its dry. Last year it was not hot enough for long enough to dry out, fronts sliced in, the play in the wheels made more drag, the back lost traction and churned in almost to the main housings, it sank eventually and was hung up. I have made 12" ruts in here once before and pushed my way backwards while in reverse with the bucket and a 6' rotary mower on, and did not get stuck, there was hard ground under the old top soil, this was crop land years ago.

I tried all the tricks, log to the wheel, forget it, no good. I waited as the conditions changed and it dried out. What eventually got it out was a chain hoist rigged to the base of a very small diameter, young black cherry tree, 4"-5" diameter. That and a friend to help.

This year, in defiance, I ran right through there with the 4630 fwd, the front tires alone made the difference, flotation is key, I did not use fwd, however if was running through there an worked it all up, sooner or later that tractor could have traction issues, sometimes its just not a winning proposition to run in wet ground with a tractor.

You can see the progression here, initial stuck, then after fooling with it. I've never been one to just spin the wheels, but all the attempts just made a mess, water ran in, it flooded. I learned that a chain hoist is a very valuable tool that can be used to move something like this slowly, that and the base of a small tree can be all that you need to get it out.
a205605.jpg

a205606.jpg
 

loader will definitely require wider tires on the front. usually i can use the bucket to "push the tractor backwards" if I am not stuck too bad. I curl the bucket all the way forwards and under. Put it down and pick up the front just a bit. uncurl the bucket as your back up and the uncurl will force the tractor back a foot or two.. If you can do this enough to get back to better soils you good. If not, you not just stuck.. your REALLY STUCK meaning that it will take a bit of drying out, lots of chains to link together to a tractor on good ground. Have had to use 3 tractor one time during a bad monsoon spring one year after waiting a whole week for better weather.

I am really very experienced at getting stuck.. Not so much at getting out. swamps and tractors dont do well.
 
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I didn't take the time for a pic stuck...

I'm thinking I'll keep the big one out of deep mud from now on..... Maybe at least wait for the paint job to be done.
 
I want to say that your n doesn't have enough power to get
stuck, but to be serious the 3400 is to heavy and the
front doesn't pull to keep the loader up.
 
My 6610 sinks like a rock, but it does have loader on the front, ballast and cast iron on the rear.
 

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