Need Ford (frankentractor?) ID help 50s/60s model

Recently acquired and old Ford tractor and the numbers don't seem to match up unless I am reading it wrong:

From the flat part of the transmission case above and behind the starter:

first line: 41202
Second line: diamond #### diamond (4 digit serial number)

From decoding model # from online guides I get:
4 - 172 ci gas engine
1 - industrial and ag after 1963
2]
0]- utility type w/adjustable front axle
2 - Five Speed w/live PTO

the diamond #### diamond serial number infers 1962 bored .095" over with cast iron sleeves (not consistent with the after 1963 coding)

The engine code is EAE 6015-F which indicates to me a 1954 Red Tiger 134 ci. (1953-1957 production with the F indicating 1954?). There is also a 38N2 number nearby. Engine has 4 blade cooling fan.

The shifter is the Over-under with the 5 speeds and reverse shown clearly on the frame below it. The seat is a Rest-O-Ride. Instrument layout and tractor from a distance looks like 600 or 800 series... someone said Golden Jubilee?

The front end of the tractor is sporting an egg crate upper grill and the lower grill part look just like the 1962 sales brochure online for a 4000 series industrial tractor (they are yellow and red in the pics). The current paint scheme is gray and blue with red peeking through the blue.

The tractor looks pretty decent already and the oil pressure runs around 60 psi at idle. Would use more as scenic work tractor if it is just a mutt not worth restoring or consider doing more substantial restoration if it is more (can be more) of a purebreed.

Does it seem most plausible that someone needed a replacement engine for their Model 41202 and replaced the 172 ci with a 134 ci? I will consider switching to a 172 ci if I get to the point of needing a replacement engine.

Any constructive advice is appreciated. Tractor is in shop for fuel and exhaust leaks right now so can't snap pics of take measurements.

Would it be proper for me to put the Ford 4000 Industrial labels on the tractor and do a corresponding yellow and red color scheme? Is it any significant problem to switch back to a 172 ci other than regular labor concerns?

Thanks and much appreciated. :?
 
Definitely sounds like it was pieced together with components form different models and years.

The two numbers stamped into the flat spot near the starter will only tell you about the tractor that the transmission was in when it left the factory. 41202 is the model number for a 1963-1964 Ford 4000 utility ag chassis tractor with a 5 speed transmission and live PTO. A 4 digit serial number would mean that it was made in very late 1962 as a 1963 model year tractor.

The engine is definitely a 134 from an earlier tractor, and the egg crate grill indicates an earlier tractor as well. The egg crate grill was actually mostly used on the 801/901 series tractors that were the predecessors to the 4000 series. There was never a tractor with an egg crate grill with a 134 engine so the engine doesn't match the grill, but the grill doesn't match the trans either. A late 1963 to 1964 4000 would not have an egg crate grill.

Post some pictures of the tractor including some that show the front axle. If the front axle is a single piece that's not adjustable than it is an industrial model, either an 1801 series or 4000 industrial series. If the front axle is 3 pieces that are bolted together so you can adjust the width of the front wheels then it is not an industrial. Is the nosecone sheet metal or is it cast?
 
Definitely sounds like it was pieced together with components form different models and years.
>I agree, hoping stronger tractor with smaller engine to have ability to upgrade if I decide to.

The two numbers stamped into the flat spot near the starter will only tell you about the tractor that the transmission was in when it left the factory. 41202 is the model number for a 1963-1964 Ford 4000 utility ag chassis tractor with a 5 speed transmission and live PTO. A 4 digit serial number would mean that it was made in very late 1962 as a 1963 model year tractor.
>Thanks! After posting this I read someone's comment somewhere that 41202 means a 4120 model with the 2 on the end referring to the PTO. The tractor I have has both PTO and the 3-point hitch which probably leans toward AG?

The engine is definitely a 134 from an earlier tractor, and the egg crate grill indicates an earlier tractor as well. The egg crate grill was actually mostly used on the 801/901 series tractors that were the predecessors to the 4000 series.
>When I looked at the picture on page 3 of the Ford Industrial Tractors and Equipment 1962 catalog, the front grill setup looks like the picture - other than the current blue paint on mine.

There was never a tractor with an egg crate grill with a 134 engine so the engine doesn't match the grill, but the grill doesn't match the trans either. A late 1963 to 1964 4000 would not have an egg crate grill.
>Good advice, thanks! I think it is a 1962 model based on the four digit serial number starting with 4. I thought the diamonds meant engine had cast sleeves and .095" oversize, although some people say the diamond stamps just bracket the serial number. Not sure when I will get to go to a tractor show, just trying to learn fast so I don't order and return the wrong parts. Trying to understand someone replacing a 172 engine with a 134 - maybe all they did was mow and figured it would be cheaper on gas or it was a lot cheaper at the time to keep it running?

Post some pictures of the tractor including some that show the front axle. If the front axle is a single piece that's not adjustable than it is an industrial model, either an 1801 series or 4000 industrial series. If the front axle is 3 pieces that are bolted together so you can adjust the width of the front wheels then it is not an industrial. Is the nosecone sheet metal or is it cast?[/quote]
>I believe it an adjustable width axle on the front, so it would be the AG model. Pretty sure the nosecone is sheet metal.

Thanks again, I will post some pics when I get the tractor back home - may be a while.
 
>I agree, hoping stronger tractor with smaller engine to have ability to upgrade if I decide to.

The transmissions were the same between the 134 ci engine tractors and the ones with the 172. The main difference, besides the engine and hp, was the rear axles. A picture of your rear axle, taken from behind, would tell us if it has the heavier rear axle from a 172 ci tractor or the lighter rear axle fromm a 134 ci model.

The tractor I have has both PTO and the 3-point hitch which probably leans toward AG?

Not necessarily. The main difference between the ag chassis and the industrial models was the front axle. The ag models had a 3 piece front axle that bolted together at various widths to allow for changing the width of the front wheel tracks to accommodate various widths of crop rows that you might be cultivating. The industrials had a single piece front axle because it was a stronger design and would hold up better to heavy loader work. According to someone on here, I think it was Tony Jacobs, the actual castings for the transmission and/or rear axle housings were heavier on at least some of the industrials as well.

>When I looked at the picture on page 3 of the Ford Industrial Tractors and Equipment 1962 catalog, the front grill setup looks like the picture - other than the current blue paint on mine.

I don't have access to that catalog, so I'm not sure what the grill looks like so I can't comment on that. But in looking through the parts site, it looks like they did use the 801/901/1801 egg crate grill on the first two years of the 4030 (light industrial) and 4031 (LCG) models of the 4000 series. But the grill still doesn't match up to any of the other information that you've given us from the tractor. if it's a 40201 then it shouldn't have the egg crate grill, and if it has a 134 ci engine it shouldn't either.

>I believe it an adjustable width axle on the front, so it would be the AG model. Pretty sure the nosecone is sheet metal.

The front and rear axles should definitely tell us more about what it started out life as, but maybe the entire tractor was just put together out of an assortment of components from various tractors that have been scrapped over the years. All of the major components, the engine, transmission, rear axle center housing and both axle trumpets, and the hydraulic top cover for the 3 point lift should all have date codes on them. If you can find all of those date codes, and a majority of them are from one several month long time period, then that might tell you when the tractor was originally built and what other parts were swapped out over time. The good thing is that most parts would be the same except for a few things that changed over the years, like the transmission input and output shafts and a few other things.
[/quote]
 
The transmissions were the same between the 134 ci engine tractors and the ones with the 172. The main difference, besides the engine and hp, was the rear axles. A picture of your rear axle, taken from behind, would tell us if it has the heavier rear axle from a 172 ci tractor or the lighter rear axle from a 134 ci model.

>>Not sure if it is OK to post a link on here to some pictures, but the tractor I found that looks the most identical is a 1963 Ford 4000 at tractorhouse website (M. Nolen Farms) that is listed for $3,500
The back of the rear end looks the same on mine, including the two horizontal raised ridges (for bolts?) going across. Front axle, seat, shifter, gauge layout look the same. The front end grill parts are missing on that one. The front grill setup on mine looks like the picture of the Ford 4000 Industrial on page 3 in the brochure "Ford Industrial Tractors and Equipment 1962 Catalog." Posted online free by various sites.

Not necessarily. The main difference between the ag chassis and the industrial models was the front axle. The ag models had a 3 piece front axle that bolted together at various widths to allow for changing the width of the front wheel tracks to accommodate various widths of crop rows that you might be cultivating. The industrials had a single piece front axle because it was a stronger design and would hold up better to heavy loader work. According to someone on here, I think it was Tony Jacobs, the actual castings for the transmission and/or rear axle housings were heavier on at least some of the industrials as well.
>>Mine is the adjustable front axle.

I don't have access to that catalog, so I'm not sure what the grill looks like so I can't comment on that. But in looking through the parts site, it looks like they did use the 801/901/1801 egg crate grill on the first two years of the 4030 (light industrial) and 4031 (LCG) models of the 4000 series. But the grill still doesn't match up to any of the other information that you've given us from the tractor. if it's a 40201 then it shouldn't have the egg crate grill, and if it has a 134 ci engine it shouldn't either.
>>Model number on mine indicates produced after 1963, serial number indicates 1962... kinda confusing. Someone said they built by the order a lot of times so serial may not always be year.
..The model number is 41202 on mine.

The front and rear axles should definitely tell us more about what it started out life as, but maybe the entire tractor was just put together out of an assortment of components from various tractors that have been scrapped over the years. All of the major components, the engine, transmission, rear axle center housing and both axle trumpets, and the hydraulic top cover for the 3 point lift should all have date codes on them. If you can find all of those date codes, and a majority of them are from one several month long time period, then that might tell you when the tractor was originally built and what other parts were swapped out over time. The good thing is that most parts would be the same except for a few things that changed over the years, like the transmission input and output shafts and a few other things.
>>At this point it is falling in line more and more to be a 4000 series ford around 1962 or 1963 according to comparing with other posted tractors. The engine casting number troubles me since it appears to be from a 1954 134 ci. (EAE 6015-F). At this point I am leaning toward it being a 1962 4000 series five-speed with a live PTO.

>>Is there any relatively easy way to tell if the engine is a 1962 or 1963 172 ci or a 1954 134 ci Red Tiger if one ignores the casting code and looks at other parts? Not running to the point of wanting to dyno yet and not wanting to crack the engine open to examine head and cylinders if I don't have to.
 
28802.jpg
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/28802.jpg[/img]
 
(reply to post at 12:30:32 10/10/15)

forgot to refer back to the model number lookup information

Model number: 41202
4 = 172 ci gas
1 = industrial and ag models produced after 1963
2
0 = utility type w/ adjustable front axle
2 = five-speed w/ live PTO

since it is a 20 in the number for utility type with adjustable front axle I will stick with that for now

would need to be 31 for low center of gravity model

Anyone know if an early 1962 4000 series utility tractor might have rolled out of the tractor with the egg crate grill and round emblem? Unless I go for the full renovation I plan to leave the front end as is and add some type of round emblem - ant suggestion for most appropriate round emblem to stick on there? My current nosecone looks like the 600 - 900 series with the vertical bar with two holes. I love the Ford Industrial emblem, but perhaps the 801/901 non-specific emblem would be more appropriate? My current limited understanding is that some of the 1962 industrial 4000 series tractors had the cyclops emblem and egg crate grill, haven't found anything yet that shows or says that some of the 1962 4000 series utility tractors were set up that way? I assume that if they were it would have been with cast iron on the part where the emblem mounts and not sheet metal?
 
As stated, the various parts that you have provided numbers and descriptions for indicate that it has been pieced together from at least 3 different tractors. The engine has a 134 ci casting number. The numbers stamped into the transmission claim that it's a 1963 model year 4000 ag chassis that was actually made in late 1962, and the grill is from either an 801, 1801 or very early 4000 industrial. You say that it has an adjustable width front axle, so it is not an industrial. You haven't posted pictures of the rear axle yet so we don't know if it is a 600/601/2000 series rear end to match the 134 ci engine, or if it is a 800/801/4000 series rear end to match the transmission numbers.
 
Got the tractor back home last night after fuel leak repair. Fires up and reads 60 psi oil pressure. After driving around for about 30 minutes with just the tractor, in the pasture, in 2nd and 3rd gears at proper PTO rpm, the oil pressure remained at 58-60 psi the entire time. When i reduced it to the lowest idle speed, it then read 30 psi.Water temp stayed constant at approx 148-150 the entire time. Outside air temp around 80 degrees F. The Rest-O-Ride seat didn't seem to cushion any of the bumps at all (not that fun in rough pasture spots)- any recommendations as to whether to repair or replace the Rest-O-Ride and what a good comfy seat would be for replacement recommendation?

Mechanic tested cylinder compression and said they all tested right at 90 psi (less than 1,000 feet above sea level). He said the engine is worn out. I am under the impression that 90 psi isn't all that bad for a 134 Red Tiger engine, especially if it is a lower compression 1954 engine? Not sure what the proper compression test reading should be for a 172 ci? Working on posting pics for ID.

Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you!
 
Someone evidently cracked plate on PTO cover trying to pry slip clutch off - wasn't me. Is the proper removal to remove the two grease fittings and drive pin out?

Also, I have this unknown pipe welded to a bolt on bracket on the front right axle - anyone have an idea what it is for?
a203250.jpg

a203251.jpg
 
The rear axle is definitely the larger 800/801/4000 style rear axle and not the smaller lighter 600/601/2000 style.

The front axle is definitely from a ag chassis tractor.

The grill and sheet metal look like it's from an 801 series tractor to me, although according to the parts site the Light Industrial 1801 and early 4000 Light Industrial modelss used the same tin and grill, but since nothing else on the tractor shows any indication of it being an industrial model I would say that the greatest likelihood is that it's from an 801 series.

I believe that the "F" at the end of the engine casting number is an engineering code meaning that it was the 5th iteration of the casting design for that particular engine (F is the 5th letter of the alphabet). Doing some Google searches does not prove or disprove that for a fact, but it appears that others have come to similar conclusions. One person appears to have done quite a bit of research and he concludes that the letter at the end designates the year the engine was made:

http://www.8nfever.com/ohv casting numbers.htm

Casting Numbers beginning with "EAE:
- 1953-1957
- 134 CID block with Sleeves and Canister oil filter
- Suspect the letter after 6015 is the year made D=53. F=54, H=55, J=56 and 57

So according to him, your engine was made in 1954, which might actually make it from an NAA rather than a 600 or 601 series.

My money is on it being an 801 series tractor originally, and it has had the engine and transmission swapped out over the years.
 
Thanks Sean! Maybe I will dress it up kinda like an 800 series for emblem and paint colors if I start dressing it up. I would like to at least buy an emblem for the front for looks. For now I'm hoping to get a rotary cutter and start working the tractor... let it earn its keep.
 
If there is any one thing that has had more changes in the last 76 years than Ford tractors it's Winchester rifles.

Here is my frankentractor. It's originally a 641 diesel that has had a 134 gas engine and 801 tin morphed onto it. I'll trade you. :D It had the resto-ride seat and it was rusted bad and was like riding a board. I just put a regular spring seat on it and it gave me a little more leg room and rode better.

standard.jpg


standard.jpg


It looks like the electrical piece on the back of your tractor could possibly be a 7 wire trailer plug, or what's left of one. A local trailer dealer had one set up for 12 volt brake control when moving trailers around his yard.
 
(quoted from post at 05:36:04 10/19/15) Scott(Ks.) - Nice looking tractor... what year did they introduce the rectangular headlights? :D

They came standard with the frankentractor package. :wink:

The tractor is basically a 1959 with 12 volt being standard on the diesel engine. The generator has ben replaced with an alternator.
 
Thanks, sorry about the slow reply - forgot to toggle the notice box. Nice looking tractor, I like the style. Still trying to decide whether to fix my rest-o-ride seat which appears to be great shape overall, but needs new rubber torsion springs, under seat hex cushion and bushings at a minimum. Someone made a modified bracket to move their rest-o-ride seat back for more legroom. I will look into the trailer wiring at some point.

At the moment, I am looking at dressing my tractor up as a 861 Powermaster because that fits closest in my mind to the radiator date of 1962 and the current 4000 five-speed with live PTO. May paint as Blue and Gray or blue and buff to represent the mid 1962 color change by Ford. Leaning toward blue and buff possibly with the generic nose badge that covers 800 series or one that says 800 if there is such a thing.

Numbers and codes I am trying to decipher:

Radiator: NDA-B L 5 62
Conclusion: Radiator made May, 1962. Used in 800 series, probably other Ford tractors.

Engine ID Tag: Top line says "Ford Industrial Engine" - next line has "GBU-S2CL"
Conclusion: Nobody seems to know so far. N Tractor club has an owners manual online for Ford Industrial Engine, copyright 1958. The ID box shown there has more spaces than mine. With the EAE 6015-F engine casting code on the block, I will stick with the engine being a 1954 Red Tiger 134 ci unless something tells me otherwise.

Number below engine casting code: Diamond 38N2
Conclusion: What does this mean?

Schebler carb: Marvel Schebler. No ID tag, throttle mechanism missing. Finally found exact match by looking at pictures. TSX 484 model carb - used in some International Tractors and on Continental F162 Industrial engines.
Conclusion: May switch carbs at some point, though this one runs sweet at PTO speed and pretty fair at other speeds.

Axle housing: NDA 4012C B
Conclusion: Axle housing used in Ford 600/ 800 series, couldn't find if used in 1962 Ford 4000 series.

Numbers under seat when seat flipped up: "NGA 501 B 86K:"
Conclusion: Casting code for hydraulic lift cover? Unknown?

Lettering inside oil drain plug when I changed oil: 9N6727A3 CAL
Conclusion: Nothing solid

Stamp on left rear axle trumpet of what appears to be E212.
Conclusion: According to SparepartsTN, the trumpet stamp if E212 would mean May 21, 1962

Raised lettering on a rear axle trumpet which is NDA above either 4013C or 4013G. The 4013C is consistent with the tractor being an 800 series.

Raised lettering on side below seat: 2H10 above CONN 4024 F
Conclusion: none yet
 
(reply to post at 08:17:44 10/16/15)

>>Thanks for the tip - it is on my eventual replace list. I will look at New Holland steering wheels at some point in time and try to narrow it down.
 

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