Backhoe Plumbing

Hi guys, thanks for the consistent good advice. This truly is the best place to look for info on old Fords.

I just purchased a 713 backhoe that I plan to mount to my '65 4400. The tractor currently has a FEL driven by a crank powered pump.

I know some valves have power over or a bypass valve, I don't believe mine does though. What would be the best and cheapest way to plumb the hoe to the FEL hydraulics?

Would this work?


It seems like if I plumbed it in like above I wouldn't have to worry about bypass valves, diverter valves or open/closed center though I truly know only what I've read on here.

Advice?

Your drawing won't work as it is, as both the loader and the backhoe have open center control valves and the fluid will follow the path of least resistance back to the sump, so if you are trying to use the backhoe the fluid will just flow through the loader control valve back to the sump and if you are trying to use the loader it will flow through the backhoe control valve back to the sump. To make it work the way you have it drawn you would have to put a diverter valve at the point where the high pressure line splits after the pump so that the fluid can only flow to one or the other, and then you lose the ability to run both implements at the same time.

Most backhoe control valves have the ability to have a power beyond port, and if the one you are adding has that capability then you should use it. With a power beyond port on the backhoe control valve you would run the high pressure line from the pump to the backhoe only, and the power beyond port would power the loader, and the return ports of the loader and the backhoe can be tee'd together to return to the sump.

(quoted from post at 14:19:43 05/01/15) Your drawing won't work as it is, as both the loader and the backhoe have open center control valves and the fluid will follow the path of least resistance back to the sump, so if you are trying to use the backhoe the fluid will just flow through the loader control valve back to the sump and if you are trying to use the loader it will flow through the backhoe control valve back to the sump. To make it work the way you have it drawn you would have to put a diverter valve at the point where the high pressure line splits after the pump so that the fluid can only flow to one or the other, and then you lose the ability to run both implements at the same time.

Most backhoe control valves have the ability to have a power beyond port, and if the one you are adding has that capability then you should use it. With a power beyond port on the backhoe control valve you would run the high pressure line from the pump to the backhoe only, and the power beyond port would power the loader, and the return ports of the loader and the backhoe can be tee'd together to return to the sump.

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Thanks Sean, that makes sense. So a valve like this http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...SINGLE-SELECTOR-VALVE-PRINCE-RD950-9-7895.axd will allow me choose which implement has the pressure. OR if the backhoe has a power beyond I will have three lines going to/from it to the tractor, with the beyond going to the loader in. I'm leaning toward the bypass so I can add/remove the backhoe more easily (2 quick connects).

I've been reading this forum and know that the 713 has odd fittings some say its a BSPP, is that what I should shoot for? something like this: http://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands/Horizon-Industrial/JIC-8M-x-1-2-BSPPM-CONNECTOR-9-8800-8-8.axd

This is sizing up to be quite the project!

Thanks for the info.

A selector valve was used in the original setup for the Ford 723 backhoe (similar to what you selected from surplus center). Later Ford backhoes used power beyond either from the loader valve back to the
backhoe or the backhoe to the loader. The 723 doesn't have power beyond. I've included a diagram of the original hydraulic kit for the 713. 12 is the selector valve and 20 and 26 run back to the backhoe.
The 713/723 fittings are not BSPP but rather bump tube fittings more commonly used for automotive air conditioning systems among other applications. There are adapters available at Discount Hydraulic Hose,
they call them Ford O-Ring Port . From memory I think they are 7/8 - 14 but check real careful before ordering anything. I have manuals for the 713/723 backhoe if you need additional diagrams.

O Ring Port Ford adapters

Not much difference in ease of removing the hoe with one vs. the other. With the power beyond setup you would have 3 quick disconnects instead of two, and you would just disconnect all 3 and then connect the line from the pump to the line going to the loader and cap off the third.

My 2 cents worth or food for thought.

"It seems like if I plumbed it in like above I wouldn't have to worry about bypass valves, diverter valves or open/closed center though I truly know only what I've read on here."

Each valve assembly should have it's own bypass valves built in, a selector valve in the main pressure line would be easy to do. As for open/closed hydraulics, your tractor is an open system per the tractor data sheet and you need to make sure the back hoe has the same open center valve.

"Not much difference in ease of removing the hoe with one vs. the other. With the power beyond setup you would have 3 quick disconnects instead of two, and you would just disconnect all 3 and then connect the line from the pump to the line going to the loader and cap off the third."

Actually the splitter valve with a power and return ( tow remotes ) would be the way to go. Other wise when you switch from the loader to the hoe you would need to stop and change the hoses every time. If you use the 4 hose system all you need to do is move the selector valve, which would be much simpler.

"Not much difference in ease of removing the hoe with one vs. the other. With the power beyond setup you would have 3 quick disconnects instead of two, and you would just disconnect all 3 and then connect the line from the pump to the line going to the loader and cap off the third."

Actually the splitter valve with a power and return ( tow remotes ) would be the way to go. Other wise when you switch from the loader to the hoe you would need to stop and change the hoses every time. If you use the 4 hose system all you need to do is move the selector valve,

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With true power beyond you can run either the loader or the hoe without changing anything, and even simultaneously with a slight pressure loss to the loader when operating them both at the same time, assuming that the backhoe is plumbed first, which is recommended because the backhoe usually has a higher pressure rating on its relief valve and if you plumb the loader before the hoe with power beyond then the hoe will be limited by the lower pressure of the loader relief valve.

I use the loader bucket as a stabilizer on the front of the tractor in conjunction with the side stabilizers of the hoe when I'm digging with the hoe. If I'm sitting backwards facing the hoe controls I can still reach the loader controls if I lean back to set the bucket against the ground as a front stabilizer. That way the tractor can't roll on its wheels when you're digging hard with the hoe. If I had a diverter valve setup to switch between the two I would have to reach the diverter valve first and then the loader valve to engage the bucket with the ground,and then the diverter valve again to switch back to the hoe.

True power beyond is the bees knees on a TLB machine.

The tractor era (post-65) you have expects power beyond on the hoe, from what I understand from having a tractor and hoe and manuals from that era.

IIRC (not my flavor/era of hoe, but I see discussions here) you are putting on a hoe from an era (pre '65) that expects power beyond on the loader.

So neither one has power beyond, most likely, as it sits. You either need to add it, or you need a diverter.

The later setup does in fact use a higher pressure on the hoe relief valve than the loader (2250 .vs 1650 PSI without looking it up - something like that) - I don't know if that would fly with a 713, if I'm recalling the era of a 713 correctly. And yes, [b:bc4a919d21]no need to switch anything[/b:bc4a919d21] with power beyond.

The stock method for parking a later-era hoe (after undoing the mechanical clamps and using the hoe itself, under power, to pick it off the hooks and onto blocks) is to loop one high-pressure hose on the tractor (power to loader), the other on the hoe (keeps it clean), and cap the low-pressure return pipe on the tractor with the cap that's supposed to be on the male blank under the deck of the hoe that the low pressure hose goes on for parking (keeps it clean).

Sean in PA
Thanks for correcting me. He would only need to switch hoses when he disconnected the hoe using the power beyond port.
Jo

Just curious as I intend to get a backhoe ASAP - what do you mean 'loop' the hoses when parked? And you disconnect the hoe from the tractor using the hoe itself before disconnecting the hydraulics?

Thanks - phil n

In the return line from the loader valve go to the back hoe and come back from the hoe before the filter

(quoted from post at 11:40:28 05/03/15) Just curious as I intend to get a backhoe ASAP - what do you mean 'loop' the hoses when parked? And you disconnect the hoe from the tractor using the hoe itself before disconnecting the hydraulics?

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By "Park" I mean "Dismount the hoe from the tractor" not parking the TLB with all its parts connected to itself.

Three hoses: Power To (HP) Power Beyond (HP) Return(LP - to sump tank)

You remove the end of ONE HP hose from the Tractor.

You remove the end of the OTHER HP hose from the Backhoe.

You LOOP the hoses by connecting the ends just disconnected to the same thing the other end stayed connected to.

The return hose stays with the backhoe and is plugged, the return pipe on the tractor is capped. The cap is supposed to be on the plug.

You do indeed use hydraulic power from the tractor with the hoses still connected to dismount the hoe, and when you need to mount the hoe, you back the tractor up to it, connect the hoses, start it up, and use hydraulic power to put the hoe back on - primarily the stabilizers and the crowd cylinder, with a bit of lift as needed.

If you don't have another heavy object for the back of the tractor, you won't dismount the hoe much, or your loader tractor gets light in the front.

OK, this all makes a lot of sense. I first have to find out if either have power beyond. If I locate part numbers (through 50 years of slow leak hydraulic fluid) will you guys be able to tell me what I've got?

I picked up the hoe yesterday - it is stout! It took a 7 ton excavator and a large compact tractor with forks to put it on the trailer. My 4400 would have been able to pick it up if it had another 1000# on the back. As it was I had to put 1/2 on rollers, hang 1/2 from my the FEL and pull out from under it. Not a bad job considering I was solo.

The power of hydraulics is amazing!