Ford 4000, burns oil & knocks loud.

Bruce J

New User
I Have a 64 Ford 4000. I have driving it for years with the engine burning oil and knocking. Over the summer I would like to diagnose the engines condition. I want to determine what is most likely wore out in it. The tractor runs and drives now I don't want to tear it down only to find it not feasible to fix. Here are the engine issues. It uses oil a lot. The knock is loud, unlike a ticking lifter. The tractor has lost a lot of it's power but still pulls the tractor fine. I can run a 6' brush hog with it. I have gotten rebuilding pricing of about $3,500 to rebuild it. I don't think I would ever get my money back on that cost. About 10 years ago I split the tractor to put a new clutch in it. I don't fear the work I would just like to know what to look for.
 
Burns Oil as in Smokes or Just Losing and having to add it regularly?

If its smoking, it probably means a new set of rings at a minimum. Boring and Sleeving the Engine with new Pistons and Rings at the worst. You can do a compression test to start, before you tear into anything.

If its not smoking and just leaking, is it finding its way into the radiator? that would be a blown head gasket.

If its not smoking and just leaking, is it dripping from the cotter pin hole in the bell housing? If so, then that's most likely a rear main seal, and possibly rear main bearing.

Knocking can be a lot of things, my 64 4000 had a side suction oil pump, and you could see where the crank counterweight had beat on it over the years, I know the 8N guys can tell you this noise sounds like a hammer even though its a small tube.

Could also be the pump suction broke off and floating around in the pan, if its just the end of the suction you would still get oil to the pump as long as there was plenty of oil in the tractor, and since you say it burns a lot, I'm assuming you keep it full to a tad overfull because of that.

Could be a rod bearing, but you say its been like that for a long time, in my short experience rod bearings don't give you years of knock before they show themselves big time.

Also, some have described a cracked exhaust manifold leak to sound like a knock in the engine... have never heard that one personally, but seen it described here on the forum as a knocking sound.

I know that doesn't narrow it down.... if you do the work yourself an engine rebuild should not cost anywhere near $3500, the only machine work would be to bore the block for the sleeves if necessary, and possibly to plane the head if its warped.

If you do pull the head, watch the oil tube that runs from the cam up to oil the rocker arms, that lil tube is made from unobtainium, that lil tube is over $100 to replace.

Also you didn't mention if it was Gas or Diesel?
 
(quoted from post at 21:14:49 04/07/15) Burns Oil as in Smokes or Just Losing and having to add it regularly?

If its smoking, it probably means a new set of rings at a minimum. Boring and Sleeving the Engine with new Pistons and Rings at the worst. You can do a compression test to start, before you tear into anything.

If its not smoking and just leaking, is it finding its way into the radiator? that would be a blown head gasket.

If its not smoking and just leaking, is it dripping from the cotter pin hole in the bell housing? If so, then that's most likely a rear main seal, and possibly rear main bearing.

Knocking can be a lot of things, my 64 4000 had a side suction oil pump, and you could see where the crank counterweight had beat on it over the years, I know the 8N guys can tell you this noise sounds like a hammer even though its a small tube.

Could also be the pump suction broke off and floating around in the pan, if its just the end of the suction you would still get oil to the pump as long as there was plenty of oil in the tractor, and since you say it burns a lot, I'm assuming you keep it full to a tad overfull because of that.

Could be a rod bearing, but you say its been like that for a long time, in my short experience rod bearings don't give you years of knock before they show themselves big time.

Also, some have described a cracked exhaust manifold leak to sound like a knock in the engine... have never heard that one personally, but seen it described here on the forum as a knocking sound.

I know that doesn't narrow it down.... if you do the work yourself an engine rebuild should not cost anywhere near $3500, the only machine work would be to bore the block for the sleeves if necessary, and possibly to plane the head if its warped.

If you do pull the head, watch the oil tube that runs from the cam up to oil the rocker arms, that lil tube is made from unobtainium, that lil tube is over $100 to replace.

Also you didn't mention if it was Gas or Diesel?

It is gas a 4 cyl. 173 CI. Sa for your comment I will reply to them.
The little bit of oil it leaks is minimal. It blows blue smoke out the exhaust like the stack on coal plant, It's Bad. I am sure the rings are shot. My main scare is the low end knock. I know that noise magnifies in an engine but this sounds loud. Sad to say but it has it has been this way for years over 100 hours run time. If the tube you were taking about could make this noise I will be happy. How can I determine if it is the tube? I have a compression gauge and a vacuum gauge I don't know where but they should tell me about the valves and rings. I am worried about major crank damage.
 
Well it sounds like its time for an oil change, I think you can get a pan gasket from Napa, or this site, and when it comes in, drain the engine oil. Remove the Oil pan, this can be done with the tractor intact. You can then look and see if there is anything loose in the pan, and see if the crank has been hitting the pump suction, if those aren't the problem, you will have access to see if any of the rod bearings are loose at the same time.

It basically adds 20 minutes and a new gasket to an oil change.
 
(quoted from post at 18:36:31 04/08/15) Well it sounds like its time for an oil change, I think you can get a pan gasket from Napa, or this site, and when it comes in, drain the engine oil. Remove the Oil pan, this can be done with the tractor intact. You can then look and see if there is anything loose in the pan, and see if the crank has been hitting the pump suction, if those aren't the problem, you will have access to see if any of the rod bearings are loose at the same time.

It basically adds 20 minutes and a new gasket to an oil change.

That is a great Idea. It should be easy to remove the pan. and take a look. I don't have any free time for awhile but I will get a gasket coming in. Thanks for the idea and I will post what I see.
 
Well I just got done working on it. I removed the oil pan. It had big chunks of oil in the bottom of it. I looked into the underside of the motor and saw that the 2nd piston form the back of the motor was missing the skirt. I removed the cylinder head and their was no damage to it. The cylinder walls had no marks on them, I thought I might get lucky and only need a piston. After removing all of the pistons I see that the connecting rod bearings were really wore bad one had spun. All of the bearings were in good shape at the intersection point of the cap and really wore out in the top to bottom position. It looks to me like it was rebuilt with the wrong bearings. The pistons are a +.03 already. This block is not a sleeved block. The cranks rod journal are kind of scuffed up you can feel grooves with your fingernail. Now I am at a loss and don't know what is the best thing to do. I don't have thousands of dollars to put into it. I don't like doing things half way either. Is there any way of checking main bearings without removing the crank? I cannot feel any play when I try to move it. Thanks,
 
Not really any good way to check the main journals without pulling the crank, but you can removed the caps and check out the bottom half of the bearings for wear and you will be able to see the journals to see if they are worn.

When I pulled mine apart, the main journals were worn pretty bad. I was lucky and found a replacement crank out of a power generator unit with low hours and journals that were still smooth and standard size for 250 including the shipping.

At least you know where you are with the noise now, if you can do the work yourself and the cylinder walls aren't bad, you might be ok with just honing it, and replacing the piston, maybe a set of rings.

As for the crank though, if the rod journals have grooves that you can catch your nail on, I would pull it and have it checked out at a machine shop. Of course this involves a tractor split, but If I can do it, so can anyone, its not super hard, just patience and a dry spaces to keep it in while its split.

You might also just see how much another 172 engine is if you can find one complete. Sometimes you can get lucky.
 
Is there any way of checking main bearings without removing the crank?

What's the point of trying it anyway. You have a spun rod bearing so the crank needs to come out anyway.
Once you get it out you can take it to a machine shop where they can mike it to see how bad it is and if oversized bearings will fix the problem.
 
(quoted from post at 20:22:34 04/11/15) Not really any good way to check the main journals without pulling the crank, but you can removed the caps and check out the bottom half of the bearings for wear and you will be able to see the journals to see if they are worn.

When I pulled mine apart, the main journals were worn pretty bad. I was lucky and found a replacement crank out of a power generator unit with low hours and journals that were still smooth and standard size for 250 including the shipping.

At least you know where you are with the noise now, if you can do the work yourself and the cylinder walls aren't bad, you might be ok with just honing it, and replacing the piston, maybe a set of rings.

As for the crank though, if the rod journals have grooves that you can catch your nail on, I would pull it and have it checked out at a machine shop. Of course this involves a tractor split, but If I can do it, so can anyone, its not super hard, just patience and a dry spaces to keep it in while its split.

You might also just see how much another 172 engine is if you can find one complete. Sometimes you can get lucky.

I pulled the center cap and for a 50 yr old motor it looked good. It had wear in the lower right area (showing copper) but overall looked good. I have accepted the fact that I will be splitting the tractor. Years ago I split it to put in a new clutch so I know the routine. (I am more concerned about the old one thing leads to another than anything else). I need to find a good engine machine shop in my central MN location. I am new to the area and don't know any shops. My block does not have sleeves in it so I assume I need to bore it. It is already +.03 and it checks up to .045 from factory or +.015 from .03 over. I don't know if I can hone that and just re-ring it. I do know that I wouldn't do that in on a car engine. I have been told to stay away from after market cranks as they fail.
 
Ford Used the 172 engine in the Ditch Witch and some Power Plants as well as the tractors, so there are good odds that you can find a good crank if you have to.

I would NOT have them weld up the crank and then turn it back down, I have seen those fail more often than not in our pumps and engines that we run in the oil field.

Some of the guys that do rebuild/restorations might let you know how far you can bore the block before you need to go ahead and sleeve it.
 
(quoted from post at 19:14:45 04/12/15) Ford Used the 172 engine in the Ditch Witch and some Power Plants as well as the tractors, so there are good odds that you can find a good crank if you have to.

I would NOT have them weld up the crank and then turn it back down, I have seen those fail more often than not in our pumps and engines that we run in the oil field.

Some of the guys that do rebuild/restorations might let you know how far you can bore the block before you need to go ahead and sleeve it.

I'll have to start looking for my different options. I know it is going to cost money from here on in so I know the project is going to slow down. Thanks for all of your help I will keep you posted as to what I find as I complete the tear down.
 
(quoted from post at 19:14:45 04/12/15) Ford Used the 172 engine in the Ditch Witch and some Power Plants as well as the tractors, so there are good odds that you can find a good crank if you have to.

I would NOT have them weld up the crank and then turn it back down, I have seen those fail more often than not in our pumps and engines that we run in the oil field.

Some of the guys that do rebuild/restorations might let you know how far you can bore the block before you need to go ahead and sleeve it.

Do you have any 1st hand experience with aftermarket NEW Cranks? I have been told to avoid them.
 

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