Electronic Ignition

davvalh

New User
I have a 58 or 59 ford 841 and would like to go with an electronic ignition. Has anyone changed theirs over. if so how did you do it.
I have already changed it to a 12v system.
thanks for any help.
 
Buy a kit and follow the instructions that come with the kit. Pertronix seems to be the most popular brand of kit. I haven't done it myself, but I have heard from others that if you get stuck following their directions that their phone support is top notch.
 
Did the conversion on my 640, bought it from this site.
Starts a lot better and provides hotter spark judging from the spark plugs.
Glad I did it.
 
easy deal
$75-$85 for the Pertronix kit for your tractor.
(Our hosts have it reasonable)
Like Sean said, read and follow the instructions.
The kit for your tractor fits other tractors too,
so selecting the right mounting holes is important.
I only mention this because when you have it in your hand,
it is obviously so easy to install that you
might be tempted to dive right in.
Don't.....read first.

I like em when I can afford them.(the tractors I 'keep' get them.)
Strong opinions about this subject.
Most that own them will say faster starts.......
I remember years ago reading what a respected mechanic here said and it stuck with me:
"Ifs its better at start up then has to better at all conditions."
 

Ive done these conversions on cars never a tractor but they convert the internals of your distributor from a breaker point to a breakerless ignition system. It should come with a adapter that fits over the cam for the points to convert them to a "On-Off" signal and you receive a magnetic sensor that switches the coil basically on and off based off the adaptor.

They work great as you have optimal spark at all times, and if you go with the petronix brand and use their coil with it you can actually get spark way hotter.

Now the reason why you get hotter spark is because instead of reducing voltage down to about 4 1/2 to 6 volts at your points, you are now able to charge your coil using full 13.8 volts if you converted to an alternator.

I am probably going to do the conversion myself on my 641 tractor but I want to see how much trouble these points will give me first before then.
 
There has been LOTS of wrangling and arguing about EI on these boards.
There is a huge amount of hostility towards it on some of these boards which can be summarized by a couple of quotes.
"You don't need EI on a 50 year old tractor."
"Points worked for my grandpa. They'll work for me."
Or, "Wait till it fails on you and you will be sorry you wasted your money."
I'm on the side that likes it and think that compared to a Lot of other do dads and gew gaws you can buy for your tractor EI is money well spent.
I put EI in a 3000 and did not touch the distributer again for 7 years other than to put a timing light on it a couple of times.
I sold that tractor 2 years ago to a fellow who calls me on occasion to ask about implements and such and I always ask him how the EI is doing.
Everytime it's the same answer; "It's still running great."
EI, unlike points, does not degrade with use. The dwell remains constant as does your spark, power and fuel consumption. EI will tolerate a lot more distributer bushing wear.
EI does not require periodic maintenance, does not corrode.
Points were built in an era of radio tubes. But everything is solid state today. Solid state is better, more reliable, just like an alternator with built in solid state voltage regulator is better, more reliable than an old fashioned generator and voltage regulator with points, coils and magnets to regulate the charging voltage.
There is not a single gas engine built today that still has points - hasn't been for 20 years. Not a lawnmower, motor cycle, boat, weed wacker, automobile or snowmobile.
If you like the idea of "set it and forget it"
you will like EI.
 
(quoted from post at 18:26:30 10/23/14) There has been LOTS of wrangling and arguing about EI on these boards.
There is a huge amount of hostility towards it on some of these boards which can be summarized by a couple of quotes.
"You don't need EI on a 50 year old tractor."
"Points worked for my grandpa. They'll work for me."
Or, "Wait till it fails on you and you will be sorry you wasted your money."
I'm on the side that likes it and think that compared to a Lot of other do dads and gew gaws you can buy for your tractor EI is money well spent.
I put EI in a 3000 and did not touch the distributer again for 7 years other than to put a timing light on it a couple of times.
I sold that tractor 2 years ago to a fellow who calls me on occasion to ask about implements and such and I always ask him how the EI is doing.
Everytime it's the same answer; "It's still running great."
EI, unlike points, does not degrade with use. The dwell remains constant as does your spark, power and fuel consumption. EI will tolerate a lot more distributer bushing wear.
EI does not require periodic maintenance, does not corrode.
Points were built in an era of radio tubes. But everything is solid state today. Solid state is better, more reliable, just like an alternator with built in solid state voltage regulator is better, more reliable than an old fashioned generator and voltage regulator with points, coils and magnets to regulate the charging voltage.
There is not a single gas engine built today that still has points - hasn't been for 20 years. Not a lawnmower, motor cycle, boat, weed wacker, automobile or snowmobile.
If you like the idea of "set it and forget it"
you will like EI.

Thats the thing, both sides are correct. Points will work just fine if you dont mind being involved having to adjust the point gap every so often or replacing them every so often. They are a mechanical switch that has metal on metal contact and they do wear out. Difference is a solid state electronic ignition conversion takes out the maintaince aspect and if you want to run the stock generator, stock ignition resistor, etc it will run off a bone stock engine. It will still produce a more reliable spark than the breaker points.

I know I only just recently joined, but I hate it when people get the idea that things like points elimination kits are a waste of money. In reality your tractor in this case is not down for maintaince as much so it is money saved in the long run.
 
Did a pertronics on my 850.Was,nt that hard especially when you have a wealth of knowledge at your finger tips, thanks to the guys on this forum.
 

I put one in a 960 about 12 years ago and no problems. Soon after that I put one in a 69 Yale fork lift that I still have. The one in the forklift went bad after about five years but the replacement has been trouble free. Timing may need to be adjusted a little. You tend not to think about something that is not there, but when someone reminds you about a problem that you used to have every few years and you haven't had it in a long time it is kind of nice.
 
An engine with EI will run like it has a set of brand new, properly adjusted points in it every day, indefinitely.
Not mentioned at all in this thread is the very real difficulty many of us experience in buying excellent quality point sets and condensers in this baragin driven, throw away world. That reality in itself should make up the mind of anyone considering an EI conversion of any 12 volt system.
 
(quoted from post at 18:58:01 10/23/14) can you extrapolate a bit on that hotter spark?
Looked at my plugs before the conversion. Each showed some carbon build up. Ran it for a while and the porcelain turned almost full white.
Coincidence?
 
Uh, thanks for the breakdown, but I already have my engineering degree, I wanted to hear how the Op achieved ' hotter spark'.

And yes, its a trick question :)
 
Hmm, I'm not buyin it. :)
Ps, good plug color is tan
Oil fouled are black and wet
Fuel fouled from running rich is furry and powdery soot
White and ashen is an indication of lean.

I'm not saying you didn't have a color change, just challenging your ascertation of hotter spark. I don't see any key evidence that you could have increased spark potential at the spark gap given what you have said. in that combustion chamber there are some variables that are more or les set, unless you change them ( or they are otherwise changed), in that relationship, spark potential at the gap will not go higher than needed/ allowed to, based on those variables
. So far I havnt hear any of the important variables changed.
 
If u had to richen to get tan then you were lean!

Ps, you still haven't said anything that should change spark potential all I see are carb tweaks and cleaned up plugs running in a leaned engine

"just sayin"
 

EI's can use extended dwell technology.. meaning the coil gets a long charge equivalent due to the capacitors/inductor tuned circuits in the modules. So its possible with the same coil to get a better spark at higher rpms where a points system starts to shorten the dwell cycle at higher rpms.

I dont know if petrox uses the extended dwell technology but back in the 70s we used early aftermarket systems for that.

Otherwise I am with you.. same coil, same voltage, should be same spark if points are good.

However... I have had tractors that were very sensitive to moisture and would not fire in high humidity unless I constantly dried out the points due to excessive condensation. Especially the ford 3000s.. dont know why. So an EI here would be miles and miles ahead of the points system. The dist cap with a loader attached was nearly impossible to get off and took a week to get back on. I ran that beast for 10 years and if the humidity was high, the dist cap was full of moisture.

An ei with dwell extender would idle higher at the same carb setting. You could switch the dwell extender in and out and see the rpm difference. Again I dont know the petrox system.

And the high voltage coil used with an extended plug gap will certainly make the engine fire better and burn cleaner. again, a proven technology. But you would need to open the plug gap up to see the difference.

Just some random memories over coffee this morn.
 
Exactly, and with no indication he has changed plug gap, the spark potential needed to jump the gap has not changed, thus what I asked him to explain his claims ;)
 
Well that pretty much what I thought. Pretty much feel good math and technology, vs something tangible to point at higher potential st the spark gap.
 
I recently put EI in a 641. I was having trouble with points going bad more than once a year and I was buying the best quality points I could (Napa Echlin, blue streak, etc.) I purchased a Pertronix kit from this site. Easy to follow instructions. Works great, starts with no choke, even in cooler weather (haven't had any cold temps yet). Seems to run smoother. Tractor is still six volt.
 
(quoted from post at 13:37:02 10/24/14) I recently put EI in a 641. I was having trouble with points going bad more than once a year and I was buying the best quality points I could (Napa Echlin, blue streak, etc.) I purchased a Pertronix kit from this site. Easy to follow instructions. Works great, starts with no choke, even in cooler weather (haven't had any cold temps yet). Seems to run smoother. Tractor is still six volt.
general comment, directed to the tractor population at large: The reason so many on these forums have trouble with points is that they are hobby tractors. If they were used more than they set idle, a vast majority of those problems would not exist. When they set unused, oxides form & insulate the low voltage contacts. Proof is that I can & have, many times, done nothing more than switch the current of a 60W/120 light bulb through those non-functioning points, then re-connect the tractor connections & fire it up and it runs great. Have to do this regularly on son's tractor because it is seldom used. Not on mine, they don't sit unused, at least for now, while I'm able to use them. Points such as these designed to switch relatively high currents were designed planning on the arc to blow away the contaminants. Contacts designed to sit & perform dry switching or switch an occasional low current (nearly dry switching) will be gold plated & will not suffer this oxide problem, ....however would be of no use in the distributor as the gold would also be blown away shortly.

Suggestion: anyone have multiple points problems per year should begin running their tractor at least 15 minutes once a week and see if their problems with points doesn't disappear.
 
[i:654c4848f0]"Not on mine, they don't sit unused"[/i:654c4848f0]

The problem with your suggestion Jmor is that many, if not most of us on this antique tractor board Are hobbyists.
And our tractors Do sit most of the time.
Many of our tractors are hours away from home and not in the barn where we live.
When a guy gets up to hunting camp after being absent for several months he wants to get on his tractor and start brush hogging or disking his trails and not have to wipe the invisible corrosion from his points before it will start.
 
(quoted from post at 21:37:02 10/24/14) I recently put EI in a 641. I was having trouble with points going bad more than once a year and I was buying the best quality points I could (Napa Echlin, blue streak, etc.) I purchased a Pertronix kit from this site. Easy to follow instructions. Works great, starts with no choke, even in cooler weather (haven't had any cold temps yet). Seems to run smoother. Tractor is still six volt.

Every engine I have ever converted starts better and runs better... If you really want to wake up a engine convert it to GM HEI...

I did my 2 Farmalls this summer they explode to life no choke are fudgen with the throttle...

I went to a clinic Monday and the instructor stated " A spark plug set closer will fire at a higher voltage" There is some merit to that statement I am just not sure how to apply it......

I converted my Farmalls to EI cuzz I rarely use them they are set up to cultivate... One of'em was giving me fitz hard to start cutting off etc I spent more time fudgen with the points than I did using the tractor... I converted it first and to my surprise it would not start... Looked it over and it restarted and cut off at that time I looked at the voltmeter it was dead I wiggled the switch it popped up to bat voltage and it fired off again... It had a bad ignition switch I spent about $100 converting it at least I will not have to fudge with the points anymore....

EI does eliminate allot of troublesome issues a points system has and its easier to diagnosis...
 
You can get a 50,000 v coil for your Petronix. JC Whitney used to
sell them and yes they do make a tractor want to start.

Mark
 

I went to a clinic Monday and the instructor stated " A spark plug set closer will fire at a higher voltage" There is some merit to that statement I am just not sure how to apply it......


I'm having trouble with that as a coil will fire with higher voltage when the resistance goes up... capacitors are opposite.
So high resistance is good for the coil

coils like very high resistance..higher the better for voltage increase.

Second, the wider the plug gap, the more voltage it takes to jump it... so this is a negative effect.

Third
gas explodes faster, more complete with wider gap, and less with narrower gap.

forth.. it take more voltage to fire at higher compression than lower compression.

So you have a lots of opposing forces and dynamics at work.
 
(quoted from post at 10:19:55 10/28/14)
I went to a clinic Monday and the instructor stated " A spark plug set closer will fire at a higher voltage" There is some merit to that statement I am just not sure how to apply it......


I'm having trouble with that as a coil will fire with higher voltage when the resistance goes up... capacitors are opposite.
So high resistance is good for the coil

coils like very high resistance..higher the better for voltage increase.

Second, the wider the plug gap, the more voltage it takes to jump it... so this is a negative effect.

Third
gas explodes faster, more complete with wider gap, and less with narrower gap.

forth.. it take more voltage to fire at higher compression than lower compression.

So you have a lots of opposing forces and dynamics at work.
see nothing in electronics or physics to support his statement! Where is the "merit"?
 
(quoted from post at 18:41:20 10/28/14)
(quoted from post at 10:19:55 10/28/14)
I went to a clinic Monday and the instructor stated " A spark plug set closer will fire at a higher voltage" There is some merit to that statement I am just not sure how to apply it......


I'm having trouble with that as a coil will fire with higher voltage when the resistance goes up... capacitors are opposite.
So high resistance is good for the coil

coils like very high resistance..higher the better for voltage increase.

Second, the wider the plug gap, the more voltage it takes to jump it... so this is a negative effect.

Third
gas explodes faster, more complete with wider gap, and less with narrower gap.

forth.. it take more voltage to fire at higher compression than lower compression.

So you have a lots of opposing forces and dynamics at work.
see nothing in electronics or physics to support his statement! Where is the "merit"?

All I can get from it is the plug will fire higher on the spark line...
 
(quoted from post at 11:52:17 10/28/14)
(quoted from post at 18:41:20 10/28/14)
(quoted from post at 10:19:55 10/28/14)
I went to a clinic Monday and the instructor stated " A spark plug set closer will fire at a higher voltage" There is some merit to that statement I am just not sure how to apply it......


I'm having trouble with that as a coil will fire with higher voltage when the resistance goes up... capacitors are opposite.
So high resistance is good for the coil

coils like very high resistance..higher the better for voltage increase.

Second, the wider the plug gap, the more voltage it takes to jump it... so this is a negative effect.

Third
gas explodes faster, more complete with wider gap, and less with narrower gap.

forth.. it take more voltage to fire at higher compression than lower compression.

So you have a lots of opposing forces and dynamics at work.
see nothing in electronics or physics to support his statement! Where is the "merit"?

All I can get from it is the plug will fire higher on the spark line...
on't know what you mean, Hobo? More words.
 

ReDO..

The plug will fire higher on the firing line and the spark line will be longer... Is this a case of having more energy available and extending the burn time verses using it all up to jump a larger gap.... I dunno jury is still out.... Maybe I need to turn my page upside down :D and look at it backerds....

That
s the way it looks to me in black and white...
 
(quoted from post at 12:47:30 10/28/14)
ReDO..

The plug will fire higher on the firing line and the spark line will be longer... Is this a case of having more energy available and extending the burn time verses using it all up to jump a larger gap.... I dunno jury is still out.... Maybe I need to turn my page upside down :D and look at it backerds....

That
s the way it looks to me in black and white...
see the longer duration, but if I understand your term 'firing line', then I still don't see "higher", but expect lower???
 
(quoted from post at 21:10:10 10/28/14)
(quoted from post at 12:47:30 10/28/14)
ReDO..

The plug will fire higher on the firing line and the spark line will be longer... Is this a case of having more energy available and extending the burn time verses using it all up to jump a larger gap.... I dunno jury is still out.... Maybe I need to turn my page upside down :D and look at it backerds....

That
s the way it looks to me in black and white...
see the longer duration, but if I understand your term 'firing line', then I still don't see "higher", but expect lower???

When I get caught up I will scan a few pages of spark lines until then lets don't lose any sleep over it...
 
(quoted from post at 14:32:21 10/28/14)
(quoted from post at 21:10:10 10/28/14)
(quoted from post at 12:47:30 10/28/14)
ReDO..

The plug will fire higher on the firing line and the spark line will be longer... Is this a case of having more energy available and extending the burn time verses using it all up to jump a larger gap.... I dunno jury is still out.... Maybe I need to turn my page upside down :D and look at it backerds....

That
s the way it looks to me in black and white...
see the longer duration, but if I understand your term 'firing line', then I still don't see "higher", but expect lower???

When I get caught up I will scan a few pages of spark lines until then lets don't lose any sleep over it...
won't!
P.S. No real need to scan/re-post, as I still have the ones you posted in 2008. :)
 
mvphoto12437.jpg


mvphoto12438.jpg
 
It's pretty simple. Electricity will jump a gap at a certain voltage. The wider the gap is the more voltage it requires. Closing the gap requires less voltage.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 10:02:30 10/30/14) It's pretty simple. Electricity will jump a gap at a certain voltage. The wider the gap is the more voltage it requires. Closing the gap requires less voltage.

Rick

That is the simple version as long as all other variables are equal. Changing a number of other variables will change the voltage that a particular gap requires for a spark to fire across. Some of the variables are the the humidity of the air, the air/gas ratio, the pressure at the instant the spark is attempted, which itself is influenced by the compression ratio and the timing, and so on.
 

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