ford 3600 starter question

I recently replaced my ignition switch with an aftermarket switch and it came with a two click position. No instructions, not Battery stamp, just numbers 1-6 on the pins. i ohm'd the pins to have the starter engage at the second click but needed to turn the key back to the first click to disengage the starter. Long story short, it worked until a friend borrowed the tractor and burned up the starter. I've replaced it but with pos power to the solenoid and negitive to the motor I have 2 red wires with one going back to the ignition switch with continuity but not power and the wire on the spade connection has no power and no continuity but I've found a blown fuse. Assuming replacing the fuse gives me continuity back on that wire, where is the power coming from to get to the ignition switch. i checked all terminals to the ground cable on the battery and there was only power from neg to pos. I'm confused. I'm also getting ready to run a seperate wire from the positive post on the starter solenoid back to the ignition switch, any reason why I shouldn't and why should I since there wasn't one before? lot's of info, but would appreciate any help.
 
I have sorta followed your posts but haven't completely understood your troubles.
First of all is your tractor a gas or diesel?
The switch for a diesel does have an extra spade lug on it for the thermostart that the gas switch doesn't have.
On a diesel, as you turn the key clockwise the key would function: off, ignition on, thermostart, start.
Gas would be the same but wouldn't have the extra thermostart position.
The wiring on those is pretty simple. Start wire goes from the switch, through the neutral safety switch and then to the solenoid.
I don't how or why he burned the starter up.
And don't know why you blew a fuse as it has nothing to do with the start circuit.
 
Start by obtaining a proper key switch.Starter should be engaged only in the spring loaded position. Expecting anyone (other than yourself) to disengage the starter my physically returning the switch to some other position is not going to work.
 
let me try to clarify this a little, first the ignition switch does have a spring position that I missed while ohming out the terminals in my hand, one more hand or some clips for the meter would have helped. It's a 77 diesel and the starter got ate up due to being engaged with the motor while it was running for about an hour due to my miswiring of the ignition switch. Now, when I removed the old starter it had one positive battery cable landed on the starter solenoid, two red wires landed on the starter solenoid that is connected to the starter motor and a black wire landed on a spade connection on the solenoid. I have continuity from the red wires back my ignition switch. I have no continuity from the black wires between the ignition switch and wire landed on the spade terminal. I assume the ignition switch closes the circuit from red wire to black to engage the starter solenoid and it cranks for a start. Due to not having the continuity from black wire on the solenoid to ignition switch, it either goes somewhere else or there is a blown fuse. Now, I know all that info is a mess to follow but fuse or not, why don't I have power back to the ignition switch? There was not a second wire with the positive cable from the battery back to the ingition. I'm not an electrician but i'm a pretty good mechanical guy with reasonable common sense. But getting older is starting to wear me down :? also, the neutral safety switch is closed.
 
(quoted from post at 16:34:58 10/21/14) let me try to clarify this a little, first the ignition switch does have a spring position that I missed while ohming out the terminals in my hand, one more hand or some clips for the meter would have helped. It's a 77 diesel and the starter got ate up due to being engaged with the motor while it was running for about an hour due to my miswiring of the ignition switch. Now, when I removed the old starter it had one positive battery cable landed on the starter solenoid, two red wires landed on the starter solenoid that is connected to the starter motor and a black wire landed on a spade connection on the solenoid. I have continuity from the red wires back my ignition switch. I have no continuity from the black wires between the ignition switch and wire landed on the spade terminal. I assume the ignition switch closes the circuit from red wire to black to engage the starter solenoid and it cranks for a start. Due to not having the continuity from black wire on the solenoid to ignition switch, it either goes somewhere else or there is a blown fuse. Now, I know all that info is a mess to follow but fuse or not, why don't I have power back to the ignition switch? There was not a second wire with the positive cable from the battery back to the ingition. I'm not an electrician but i'm a pretty good mechanical guy with reasonable common sense. But getting older is starting to wear me down :? also, the neutral safety switch is closed.
hese two statements seem to contradict one another? 1)I have continuity from the red wires back my ignition switch. 2)why don't I have power back to the ignition switch?
 
What you should have is a single wire with a spade connector on the solenoid. That wire is the one that gets juice when cranking (spring loaded position)

There are several wires that go to the positive "threaded stud" on the solenoid. There are 2 threaded studs and one male spade on the solenoid. The bottom threaded stud connects to the starter motor. The top stud holds your positive battery cable, and all the accessory wires, including the wire that goes to give power to the ignition switch. You say you have hot power to the ignition switch. So, run a continuity check from the supply (batt+) terminal on the ignition switch to find the spade that is normally open in all switch positions, except the spring return start position. You should find a spade terminal that will only give you continuity when you have the key switch in the "Start" or "crank" position. That is the terminal that goes to the only spade connection on the solenoid. The tractor has to be in neutral on the range, and the pto has to be disengaged and clutch pushed in to get continuity. (there might not be 3 safety switches on that circuit, I can't remember off hand, but just to be sure, cover all three possibilities.)

If you find any blown fuses, replace them, obviously.


This is just a general breakdown of what to do. I could get a lot more detailed, if you got more detailed with pictures on your posts, or even a very detailed drawing using the paint program on the computer, uploaded as a photo. I'm a bit confused at your description. I read it a few times and got confused so I just stopped over-analyzing and typed this. If I covered everything you said you covered in your post and didn't answer any question, let me know.

Also, what I like to do is get a generic assortment of electrical connectors with spades and eyelets. I always have a bunch on hand. Then, when I am trying to probe spades with a DVOM, I loosely crimp some spades onto my test lead points, and then I can just plug them into the terminals I am testing, with frees up both of my hands for turning key switches or eating a sandwich or scratching and itch or whatever else. Just a suggestion to make it easier.
 
OK,

I re-read your post. It sounds like you have continuity, but not power to the ignition switch. I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page.

For starters (pun intended) this is what we are looking at?


Hopefully you have the fuel filter out of the way so you can see what is going on with the starter. The starter has a solenoid on top. The solenoid has 2 posts with threaded nuts, and 1 male spade. All the wires go on the top threaded stud with the positive battery cable. That is what supplies juice to the whole tractor. If you have some of the wires on the bottom lug, it needs fixed. Only the metal tab to the starter motor belongs on the bottom threaded solenoid post. Then, there is the single wire to the spade from the cranking position. Here is a quick picture I made.

mvphoto12234.jpg



Verify that it is all in this order. If you have continuity from the 2 red wires with eyelets to the ignition switch, but no battery juice, that means something is not connected correctly on the starter. Check to make sure you didn't pin a 3rd wire behind the starter when you replaced it. I can't picture the tractor exactly, but there should be a few wires to that post. You say 2 wires. IT could be correct, but, triple check. That ignition switch gets the battery voltage directly from the starter. If you found continuity, but not batt voltage, the only thing I could suggest is that you don't have all the wires on the correct posts.

Follow what I said in the other post about testing the ignition switch. Get some spades on your test leads and through process of elimination, figure out which terminal gets batt + and so on. I could walk you through that also if you are not sure.
 
Hello, John_PA. Just saw your other response to this question on Tractor Talk.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7143494&highlight=#7143494
That last starter/solenoid picture with the strap actoss the two upper terminals makes me suspect that the left top post is being fed from an upstream solenoid instead of the battery cable. Is that correct? If yes, then his two red wires belong on the upstream solenoid & not here. If wrong, then surely that strap needs to be removed? I have the schematic, but is leaves much to be desired & does not show fuse bos, 21 pin connector, etc.
 
JMOR,

There is a downstream solenoid on the 3600 that feeds the
thermostart. It is hard to see in the photo, but, there is the
male spade terminal above the top 2 posts. That is what
energizes the solenoid.


On the starter solenoid, there should be 3 wires on the left
post, or top post. 1 is the batt + cable, 2nd is the main
ignition switch batt + feed that controls all electric including the
charging system, lighting, etc. The 3rd wire goes to the batt +
post on the thermostart solenoid. That solenoid is a
conventional automotive solenoid like this:




mzksrv0m5y0r9-swPDaUonw.jpg




The key switch in this mystery is what concerns me. I went
through the user post history and read every post by the
Original Poster. His first trouble was about new battery cables,
which seemed to fix the situation. Then, a few months later, he
posted that he thought the key switch was bad and so he
replaced it and that is when the problems really started.


The factory diesel thermostart key switch is different from what
I am used to on my older 7000 diesel. On the 7000
thermostart, turning the key clockwise goes to -RUN- position,
then -START- position and springs back to -RUN- when you let
go of the key. Turning it clockwise, it goes to -THERMOSTART-
then -THERMOSTART_START- and releasing the key springs it
back to -THERMOSTART-. Once engine is running smooth, the
key gets turned to normal -RUN- position clockwise.


On the 3600, the key switch is different. You turn the key
clockwise to -RUN- then next position is spring loaded -THERMOSTART-
and the next position is spring loaded -START-. When you
release the key, it is supposed to spring back from -START-
to the -RUN- past the -THERMOSTART- position. I have seen
some of the new aftermarket switches and factory switches
that won't spring from -START- to -RUN-, instead they
spring from -START- back to -THERMOSTART-, which leaves
a large drain on the battery, as it is basically a dead short
through the heating coil. It sounds to me like the switch he
bought won't spring back from -THERMOSTART- to -RUN-.


If it was me, I would get the Ford factory switch and toss the
new switch he installed. That is what caused a lot of problems
along with the starter replacement after his friend ruined the
starter. I assume that when he replaced the starter, he didn't
put all 3 wires on the same post, as the new starter could be
different with the posts, compared to the old. That is why I
posted the photos of the different style starters available.
 
I circled the male spade in the photo. It points to the front of the tractor, when the starter is installed. This is where the
black wire from the ignition switch -START- position goes on the solenoid.


mvphoto12269.jpg



It is hard to see in the photo, but it is there. I hope this clarifies a lot. The metal bus bar to the post on the right side of the
main batt + post on the solenoid should be left on the solenoid or the solenoid will not kick out to the starter. My theories
are just that. Theories... Without seeing pictures of what he actually did, or how it is wired, I am just shooting from the hip.
 
AH, excellent information from everyone, thank you. I thought I scribbled the wiring positions on a piece of paper correctly before I removed the starter but obviously should have taken a picture. I have landed the two red wires on the lower lug, I need to move it onto the same lug as the positive cable from the battery. That will give me the power back to the ignition I'm missing. And for the ignition switch, I'll check continuity to the pins from the spring loaded position back after it's released to see if this switch reacts the same as what's been described in your posts. I've got my IT shop manual up with the tractor and it should have a wiring diagram but it's a 3 hour drive and I was baffled why I was having this problem and wanted to seek some help before heading back up north. I appreciate all your help and will submit another post when she's up and running, just in time to put her up for the winter :(
 
Glad to hear you think you know the problem! I had to re-read what you wrote about a hundred times to catch what you were
saying. Sometimes it is harder to read a description of a problem, rather than just getting a look at the tractor. Can I
ask what the problem was with the original key switch? Do you still have the original key switch laying around? Maybe it needs
a second look? I think if your current key switch won't snap from start to run, and stays on thermostart, you will have the
thermostart burned out in no time.


EDIT: I deleted the large image of the side of the tractor from my previous post, so that this post is easier to read without side scrolling on the page.
 
In a nutshell, I realize I may actually make it to retirement and two years ago purchased 5.5 acres in Chino Valley Az, came with a 73 trailer and cracked pipes from the cold, a diesel 6x4 diesel gator and the 77 ford 3600 tractor. Being 3 hours away, it took time to make the 73 single wide mobile home liveable. Next, had to learn about diesel engines with weak batteries and corroded cables that normally don't effect a gas engine. Gator up and running and now the tractor, I originally metered the new switch for power from the battery to the second click position because I didn't realize it had a normal spring positon while it was in my hand, hence the start in second click and back to first click to disengage the starter, my fault. So, now I've identified pins 2 and 4 to have continuity while the ignition switch is turned to the spring position, I'll just need to verify which one loses continuity when it returns, that will be my starter. I don't believe I've got glow plugs, need to confirm though and currently the wiring to my accesories/lights/insturment cluster have been chewed up from some homesteading rodents. The old switch had 1 red wire (battery) one black wire (back to starter solenoid) one blue (ford 3600 blue to lighting, chewed in half) and a green wire that goes up to a black rubber push button on the left side of the steering wheel that someone believes may be a push button for the glow plugs, true? I generally don't use the tractor during the winter so don't really need the glow plugs but I would like to learn as much as I can about how it works. I was willing to give the gator away until I started working on it and it was a blast. Looking forward to the ford now.
And now I just looked up what a thermostart is, I thought it may be the same as glow plugs but now I've I learned something new. Thanks, guess I better look for that :oops: :D
 
okie dokie, I'm an idiot. I actually drew out the positive battery cable + 1, which means 2 of the 3 wires and the spade connector to the terminal. My son in law wanted to put it back in and here starts the confusion, I should have looked closer but beer may have been involved:). I finally got back up to chino valley, found my hand written wiring diagram that matched what you all have explained. I moved the two smaller red wires back onto the post with the positve cable and everything is good. I rewired the ignition switch so the engine cranks in the spring loaded position but the starter disengages when the key is released. I made sure by turning the key on to start the tractor but released the key before it started and life is good again. thanks to everyone who posted some very helpful advice. By the way, how 'bout those Az Cardinals? :D
 


How about those Pittsburgh STEELERS!

LOL!

Glad to hear you are up and running. That was my main concern. Your handle, "Tractor virgin" did not inspire confidence, but... I knew you could do it!

Glad to hear you are ready to go!

We all want to see pictures! I want to see this 3600. I bet she is a good looking girl in her work clothes.


Post a few pics of that good ole gal!
 
Can't argue with what the steelers did last week, wow. Tractor virgin is exactly what I am, this is my first and as posted earlier I'm just getting to know the diesel engine and it came with the front loader and rear box blade/scraper. Front loader not to difficult to learn and use but using the box scraper requires some practice. Still need to figure out when to use hi or low speed, I've made a few poor decisions but luckily not a lot of witnesses out on 5 acres in chino valley:)
 
(quoted from post at 20:00:13 10/28/14) Can't argue with what the steelers did last week, wow. Tractor virgin is exactly what I am, this is my first and as posted earlier I'm just getting to know the diesel engine and it came with the front loader and rear box blade/scraper. Front loader not to difficult to learn and use but using the box scraper requires some practice. Still need to figure out when to use hi or low speed, I've made a few poor decisions but luckily not a lot of witnesses out on 5 acres in chino valley:)
img]https://forumphotos.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/12423.jpg[/img][/img] Almost gave the gator away because I didn't think it would be worth the trouble but less than $1,000 and it's a great asset to have, most of the money was for new wheels and tires.
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top