1969 ford 3000 3cyl gas generator question

First Time on site hope I can get an answer,

I removed the Lucas 12 V generator on tractor last night, so that I could clean the fuel lift pump filter; tractor was being starved for gas. Sure enough the fuel lift pump filter was clogged and I was able to clean it. I believe my tractor is negative ground as the negative side of the coil goes to the distributor (hopefully my assumption is correct if not please correct me) i'm going to put the generator back on tonight, first wanted to test it to make sure it was working properly.

I hooked up a "battery jump box" to the generator while off, The negative jumper cable to the generator body and the positive jumper cable to the small tab on the back of the generator (believe this is called the field tab ), The generator motor started spinning freely and quickly. When I put the positive jumper cable to the large tab (I think armature tab) nothing occurred.

Does this mean the generator is working properly?
Will I have to Repolarize the generator once I put it back on. Or can I just hook it up and I'm done?
If I have to Repolarize can you provide direction how to accomplish this?

Thanks for the help want to make sure I do not burn anything out
 
(quoted from post at 11:07:21 09/05/14) First Time on site hope I can get an answer,

I removed the Lucas 12 V generator on tractor last night, so that I could clean the fuel lift pump filter; tractor was being starved for gas. Sure enough the fuel lift pump filter was clogged and I was able to clean it. I believe my tractor is negative ground as the negative side of the coil goes to the distributor (hopefully my assumption is correct if not please correct me) i'm going to put the generator back on tonight, first wanted to test it to make sure it was working properly.

I hooked up a "battery jump box" to the generator while off, The negative jumper cable to the generator body and the positive jumper cable to the small tab on the back of the generator (believe this is called the field tab ), The generator motor started spinning freely and quickly. When I put the positive jumper cable to the large tab (I think armature tab) nothing occurred.

Does this mean the generator is working properly?
Will I have to Repolarize the generator once I put it back on. Or can I just hook it up and I'm done?
If I have to Repolarize can you provide direction how to accomplish this?

Thanks for the help want to make sure I do not burn anything out
ounds 'bassackwards' to me. Heavy wire/terminals = armature & Field should not put any current thru arm on that type "B" generator & thus not spin it.
 
i agree.. field should be grounded on that model. arm might have got it to spin with residual magnetism in the field shoes.
 
double check that setup.

case grounded, and hot to the arm, might get her to spin.. but hot to arm and field deffinately should if she is good and wired correctly.

post back
 

Okay, thanks folks so far for the feedback. Your correct...
If I ground to the case and hook hot to the armature (large) blade The generator spins smoothly.
If I ground to the case and hook hot to the field (small) blade to the generator does not spin.

Does this mean it's working properly?
I tested ohms between the field and arm blades and get 7.2ohms

When I reinstall the generator will I need to polarize it?
Anything else ya'll think I newbie should be aware of?

Thanks,
Daniel
 
As jmor said. motor testing it polarized it.

ps, as a final test, you can hook ground to case and hot to arm AND field, and see if it spins faster.

so far your test says the armature and comutator and brushes are good, and that there is residual mag field in the pole pieces.
 
Thanks jmor and sound guy for the fast feedback.

SounDguy-
If I hook the battery ground to the case and positive (hot) to both the field and amature blade it spends the opposite direction about half the RPM.

Here's my explanation in detail-

When I hook up battery ground to the case and positive (hot)to the amature blade it spins counterclockwise if I were standing in front of the generator (looking at it like a clock face)

When I hook up battery ground to the case and positive (hot) to the Armature blade and the field blade it spins clockwise, at approximately half the speed it seems, and makes a small whining noise.

What Does this tell you, that I'm crazy? :roll:
 
(quoted from post at 13:49:01 09/05/14) Thanks jmor and sound guy for the fast feedback.

SounDguy-
If I hook the battery ground to the case and positive (hot) to both the field and amature blade it spends the opposite direction about half the RPM.

Here's my explanation in detail-

When I hook up battery ground to the case and positive (hot)to the amature blade it spins counterclockwise if I were standing in front of the generator (looking at it like a clock face)

When I hook up battery ground to the case and positive (hot) to the Armature blade and the field blade it spins clockwise, at approximately half the speed it seems, and makes a small whining noise.

What Does this tell you, that I'm crazy? :roll:
re you sure you are being consistent with your battery polarities?
 
answer jmors bat polarity question, and next try this test with a real battery and not a jump pack.

also.. make the followign ohm meter tests.

field tab to case.

field tab to armature.

armature to case
 
Yes the polarity is consistent. Blk=ground red=hot. I'm also use jumper cables and alligator color code clips to make sure I don't make an error.

This test I used my running f350 vs the portable jumper pack.

As before when I hook the black ground to the case of the generator, and the red hot to the armature (large) blade it spins counterclockwise smoothly and quietly.

I then shut down and.... Leaving the ground black on the case and utilizing red hot power to both the Armature and Field blades it spins the opposite direction clockwise, I would say the speed is about equal
Had my wife go out with me this time to watch to make sure I wasn't crazy. Hahah

The ohms read as follows- (unit not running via truck battery at time of ohm reading; not sure if it matters)
Field tab to case = 6.8 ohms
Field tab to armature tab = 7.3 ohms
Armature tab to case = .8 ohms

Sounds like you guys don't like something. ? . :cry:

Both directions descriptions are based on looking at the generator straight on from the front and the gear spinning as if you were looking at the face of the analog clock.

(sorry for the wordiness just trying to be explicitly clear as you're doing your best to help me, which I appreciate the ton)
 
Here is a pic of the back side of genny.
mvphoto10698.jpg
 
What I (we probably) don't like is the opposite directions of spin. Not right.
 
hmm

is there any play in the armature shaft?

use gator clips to hook ohm meter to armature and fielt tabs.

slowly rotate the armature and see what the ohm meter does..

field to armature involvement...
 
i'm thinking field short to armature.. possible cutting and bad bushing/bearing.. or soemthing at the brush plate?
 
When I grab a hold of the front to gear and wiggle it there is no play in and out it will only spin clockwise or counterclockwise. Seems pretty secure.

When I hook up the ohmmeter via alligator clips as you suggested the following results occur-

My starting read is about 7.3 to 7.5 ohms.

When I spin it counterclockwise the number goes negative, depending on how hard I spin it, it goes anywhere from double digits to triple digits negative.

When I spin it clockwise the number goes positive depending on how hard I spent it, it goes anywhere from double digits to triple digits positive.

I believe it's the original generator, it is a Lucas12v.

What drove me to want to test this while it was off the tractor, is last year when I was using it to brush fields it seems as though the battery was not charging and I had to put a charger on it periodically but when I run it at Idol or very low RPMs for small things I didn't have to charge the battery. Was just my feeling something's wasn't right.
 
OK, pos to ARM, NEG to case and another jumper in hand with one end to POS. Then with it spinning (you say CCW), then connect that in-hand pos jumper to Field. Did it reverse spin direction from CCW to CW? And if jumper to field is removed did it revert to CCW?
 

Completed review.. Yes when negative to ground case and positive to arm it spins ccw. While it's spinning (quite well I add) i connect the second in-hand hand positive alligator clip it to the field spade it forces the unit to spin cw. When I disconnect the field alligator clips it goes back to ccw. I reconnect field and it goes cw and so on.

Btw the wife's is laughing at me now, thinking where making rap song on a round table, back and forth, back and forth.

This test was on a running battery from f350, not the jumper box.
 
(quoted from post at 15:27:51 09/05/14)
Completed review.. Yes when negative to ground case and positive to arm it spins ccw. While it's spinning (quite well I add) i connect the second in-hand hand positive alligator clip it to the field spade it forces the unit to spin cw. When I disconnect the field alligator clips it goes back to ccw. I reconnect field and it goes cw and so on.

Btw the wife's is laughing at me now, thinking where making rap song on a round table, back and forth, back and forth.

This test was on a running battery from f350, not the jumper box.
ust tell her that your Prince of Darkness generator has lost its mind. It is acting as if the iron pole pieces are not holding the "new" polarization and when field current is removed (which was overpowering the residual), then it reverts back to old/original residual. Just plain weird! Iron pole pieces inside there? Tight? Broken? By the way the additional pictures did not appear.
 

Well hummmm.
Fixable or replace?

What's your thought?

Which way should both spade be making it go? I'm thinking cw?
 
(quoted from post at 15:41:44 09/05/14)
Well hummmm.
Fixable or replace?

What's your thought?

Which way should both spade be making it go? I'm thinking cw?
W. If in my hands, I would take apart & look inside.........about an hour ago. :)
 
Pay particular attention to wires to/from fields & between the two as well as at terminals & brushes. Try to observe with as little disturbance as possible.
 
Will do. I watched a few videos on you tube, so I think I have the general concept. Here's a few pics of the broken open. Definitely dirty.

mvphoto10703.jpg


mvphoto10704.jpg
 

Okay one piece at a time. Here is a picture of the cat with the bushings wires etc. cleaned it up bushings look maybe a little worn but they still touch the copper shaft.
The wires seem a little old but connected well I checked continuity between the wire connection and the end of the bushing I have continuity on both also checked on's between the bolts the wire connector and the bushings and I'm getting about .7 owns on each
The bushings had quite a bit of Mc and oil residue on them I clean them up as well as possible.

Next piece to come soon
mvphoto10708.jpg
 
Nothing looks unusual there. Be sure one brush has continuity to ground (case) and the other insulated from ground (case), but making continuity with the larger (ARM) terminal on the rear.
 
Yes the arm bushing has continuity from the blade to the end of the bushing good connections solid strong

The other pushing which is not connected to a blade has continuity from the end of the bushing to the case itself and does not have continuity touching the other bushing and arm blade.

They are independent of each other

Assuming that's correct?
 

Here's the second piece which is the main drive ( unsure of the name). Was very dirty cleaned as best as I could.
I do not see anything broken or out of place, spins freely. Seems balanced well. The silver contacts I have a few nicks and burs in them but nothing too drastic all of the wires in the coil seem connected nothing sticking out or seems to be broken.


mvphoto10709.jpg


mvphoto10710.jpg


mvphoto10711.jpg
 

Here's the last piece (the main barrel).
Continuity on the whole unit from the blade to the main magnet surfaces to the case everything I touch on this peace makes a continuity contact, except the copper wires you can see in the picture which the paper that covered them has eroded away

If you can see in the picture the right side magnet surface has the copper windings covered in a type of paper and the left side you can see the copper windings not in paper

The surface of the main magnets was extremely oily and dirty I cleaned everything the best I could
mvphoto10712.jpg


mvphoto10713.jpg


mvphoto10714.jpg
 

Picture with Amature cylinder in barrel .

Looks like it fits perfectly no burs or anything holding it up, spins freely approximately a 32nd of an inch gap between silver Contacts and magnet plates
mvphoto10715.jpg
 
As best I can see in pictures, your continuity test seem OK, as I believe F2 is in contact with the case and F1 with field spade terminal. If so, then resistance between the field spade & case (all metal parts including the field pole pieces bolted to case) should be as before ~ 7 Ohms. Does each pole piece attract a metal wrench? One thing that can make these run backwards is reversing F1 and F2. Has this generator ever worked while you have had it? Could someone before you have reversed these two?
 

You are correct in your assumption F2 is tucked behind that spacer which it hears to the case and F1 is attached to the metal field spade. Owned the tractor for approximately two years I don't think the generator has ever worked as a mentioned in a previous post when I run the tractor and brush hog it seems as though the battery needs to be charged the next day where as if I run the tractor on Idol using the loader for moving firewood etc. the battery does not need to be charged but that's what led me to think something wasn't right.

I suppose your idea of a previous owner messing with something is very possible would you recommend I flip F1 and F2 put it back together and see what it does?

I do have my approximate seven ohms on all metal parts via the field spade
 

I took the Field spade connector apart as you can see in the picture it looks like F1 has been soldered to the field Spade F2 has just a metal clip to it. If you recommend I flip them to see if it will spin clockwise with both field and amateur spade bit positive I will need to solder them and rebuild it.
Again I suppose the previous owner may of been wrestling with it and done this but I do not know. If it's broken I don't see what harm I could cause by trying to flip these two items
mvphoto10717.jpg
 
I would very carefully swap those two wires, as the possibility of creating a short with the old insulation is definitely there, plus be sure position of wires are such as not to touch the rotating armature. Just hold a wrench near the metal pole pieces (center of field coils) & see if they attract the wrench as would a magnet. P.S. more important than the wrench deal. ....while you have those two wires loose, use Ohm meter to verify that they have NO continuity with case.
 

Yes sir,
Work complete.
How do you think this looks I basically added a spade connector to that F1 wire and put it behind the field spayed and brought forward the F2 wire which already had a spade connector adhere to it

I tested continuity and I have a nice strong beep signal from my multimeter on both magnet faces all metal components etc.

Before I switch the wires I did your metal wrench test, it had a very weak pole to the magnet faces, since I switched the wires I did another magnetic test and it pulls to the face plates a little bit stronger, it may be in my mind , but I could feel it a little more prevalent.

Attached a picture for your review..
 

Okay test ground to case positive to amateur post spends counterclockwise very smooth and fast.
When I jump the positive to both the field and amateur Spade it continues to spin counterclockwise I think it might be even faster but I don't have an RPM meter and my feeling is that it goes a little quicker but that's just a guess

My main crankshaft on the tractor spins clockwise thus my fan blade belt would spin clockwise and if I put this back on the tractor it will spin counterclockwise which I don't think works

Thoughts
 
Getting "weird-er" by the hour!!! Reverse pos & neg battery leads & re-observe.
 

Okay, I have to say this is very interesting .

So now I hooked the positive side of truck battery to the case ground of the generator and the negative side of the truck battery to the amateur large spade. It spins counterclockwise.
When I leave the positive on the case and have the negative jumper it to the amateur spayed and field Spade together it continues to spin counterclockwise.
Basically the exact same action as if I had the ground to the case and the positive as my hot.
 
Damn! You got a strange generator!

I just now saw the picture of how F1 was soldered to the spade. Raises the question of, when you moved F2 to spade by putting it under the screw, how did you keep from shorting the F2 loop to the screw? Does the insulating washer have a shoulder on it?
 

I added two photos, hope they come through and post. When I added f2 to the stud there was a hard plastic (draw brown) insulated washer. Chill explain what it looks like and hopefully you can tell by the pics.

From the outside barrel inwards.
Mental barrel, then f1 connector (I put a blue spade on it), then white plastic backer plate the field spade is attached to., then the gold field terminal spade, then the f2 connector, then brown plastic washer, then silver metal washer, then regular bolt head. It's all sandwiched together with a nut on the outside of the barrel. And tightened.




mvphoto10719.jpg


mvphoto10720.jpg
 
OK. What I was getting at was whether the lug under the insulated washer could slip to where it touched the screw threads. Without a shouldered washer, it could. See sketches.

Now, I feel like I am exercising you a bit, sorry, but some things here just are not normal. I would like to know whether or not the lug to screw threads short could have existed in those last tests.
Whatever the case, though, we need to put F1 & F2 back the way they were. Had I seen that one "soldered photo " earlier, I would not have had you change that, but that is water under the bridge. What you saw with the rotation being the same whether battery neg to case or pos to case is in fact NORMAL. In order to change direction of rotation, it is necessary to change direction of current in either fields OR armature, but not both. Change both and direction remains the same. There is still some strange behavior here, but we will find it. You may want to use YT's secure email tom send me a message where we can exchange phone numbers, as I will be away from computer tomorrow & definitely want to resolve this situation. My email is open in MODERN VIEW.
 

Sub question I wanted to ask. Knowing their is clearly and issue with the gennie can I put it back on the tractor (as it's a part of the pulls system) so I can run the tractor todo chores? I think the answer is yes, but I'll need to charge my battery manually. I would just not connect the spades ( field and Amature)

Then when I get this fixed or replaced with something working right I'll just put it on and hook it up.
 
(quoted from post at 12:07:21 09/05/14) First Time on site hope I can get an answer,

I removed the Lucas 12 V generator on tractor last night, so that I could clean the fuel lift pump filter; tractor was being starved for gas. Sure enough the fuel lift pump filter was clogged and I was able to clean it.


I believe my tractor is negative ground as the negative side of the coil goes to the distributor (hopefully my assumption is correct if not please correct me)


i'm going to put the generator back on tonight, first wanted to test it to make sure it was working properly.


I've re-read your post a couple of times, and focus on the above quote....
A. It would appear that you DIDN'T have any generator problems
BEFORE you took if off.....Hence, why would you think it WAS a problem.

Testing could have been done perfectly well after it was installed!
It was certainly dirty, however :)



you may continue with your present direction of cleaning/testing/putzing, but I must add this....

The field windings are toast, as seen with the lost insulation, etc.,
and I surmise that they are annealed, hence
bending the copper will flake off the first layer of copper...
There's a word for that, but I can't come up with it at the moment.

Second, the commutator is heavily worn, and should be run through
a lathe to spruce it up......
but that's not gonna help the field windings.


Personally, this is a 45+ year old generator, and I'd recommend you replace it....
and before you do, take the cover off the voltage regulator,
and check to see if it looks like a rusty bucket.

If so, replace both ............

But, that's just me :)

.
 
(quoted from post at 21:54:44 09/05/14)
Sub question I wanted to ask. Knowing their is clearly and issue with the gennie can I put it back on the tractor (as it's a part of the pulls system) so I can run the tractor todo chores? I think the answer is yes, but I'll need to charge my battery manually. I would just not connect the spades ( field and Amature)

Then when I get this fixed or replaced with something working right I'll just put it on and hook it up.
es, you can do that..
As to billy, if I ran a generator shop where time is money and my reputation meant that I needed to send out good product, I would replace any parts that looked questionable or sell you a new gen or alt, but we are operating in a shoe string hobby world where we want to make do and be certain that we don't replace a nasty "looking" workable part, such as a scratched commutator or paperless field that we have yet to prove are bad/unusable..neither of us are wrong, just working in different circumstances.
 
As to billy, if I ran a generator shop where time is money and my reputation meant that I needed to send out good product, I would replace any parts that looked questionable or sell you a new gen or alt, but we are operating in a shoe string hobby world where we want to make do and be certain that we don't replace a nasty "looking" workable part, such as a scratched commutator or paperless field that we have yet to prove are bad/unusable..neither of us are wrong, just working in different circumstances.


Agree wholeheartedly, my 'shoe string' is presently looking at a SOS
tranny that needs work, obviously bigger money, but some time I havta
make that decision where additional time (time is money)
is gonna be doubled if I dicker with a losing proposition,
and havta do it all over again in less than another 45 years. :)

As said, That's just me ..........

.
 
Thanks guys for the continued support.

Billy, I here your point, and it's a good one. it's old and a bit worn.. Lol. I've been enjoying the learning's here. I think I mentioned shortly after the post you linked, I really wasn't sure of the gennie was working or not as last year I has to manually charge the battery after I bushed hogged a few fields, so that led me to thinking something may not be right, but never looked into it. Now that I rebuilt the carb and distributor I wanted to clean all the fuel filers so I had to remove the gennie to get the fuel lift pump filter and it was a mess.

What has me stumped here is when I test the gennie, ground to case and positive to Amature blade it spins the opposite way it suppose to ccw vs the arrow on the case which is cw. It's going against my fan blade direction. Maybe it screwing up for so long it's reverse magnetized everything. No clue.. Then when I jump the field and Amature together it spins the right way, and fast..

Jmor- I put it back per your last message and per you pic I don't see anywhere the f1 or f2 can touch. It back to doing what I called out tab above, and the stumped us all day.. :lol:
 


No problem, sometimes I like to play with stuff
just to get it working and 'beat the odds'........


I would like to mention,
I forgot this in the earlier post,
but you stated.........

"I believe my tractor is negative ground as the negative side of the coil goes to the distributor
(hopefully my assumption is correct if not please correct me) "


The ONLY place to check is the battery post......
If the NEGATIVE post goes to GROUND,
Usually a bolt on starter mount

It's negative ground.


Oddly enough these can run either way (the old days)
and depends how much tinkering was done by the owners through the years.

.
 

Cool, thanks for calling that out. I'll check that In The AM. I'm almost 100% sure the neg goes to a ground but will make sure so I speak accurately in future post.

I.m going to Emil this site. :eek:

THX
 

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